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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2508489 - 04/01/04 06:55 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

We do not indiscriminately target civilians.




Are you 100% convinced of that?

How about the sanctions which were created and maintained in the main by the US. How can you deny that they targeted civillians directly?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Sanity check [Re: GazzBut]
    #2508958 - 04/01/04 07:09 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

The sanctions were meant to weaken Saddam and bring about him being overthrown, but it wasn't working.

How come nobody ever thanks Bush for finally putting an end to the sanctions. He's the best liberal president we've ever had. :yesnod:


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: GazzBut]
    #2513974 - 04/01/04 10:52 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

1) Do not invade Iraq and pretend its a war on terror as the killing of innocent muslims will surely breed more terrorists making the world a more dangerous place im sure you will agree.





Iraq is done. No amount of debate or wishing will change that fact. It would greatly complicate matters if we were to just pull out. It would certainly embolden those who battle us and create a stage that would magnify the entire dilemma.

Quote:

2)Concentrate more on preventing attacks inside our own borders rather than carrying out attacks in other countries i.e Afghanistan, as the killing of innocent muslims will surely breed more terrorists making the world a more dangerous place im sure you will agree




No amount of vigilance could ever protect us completely. No matter what actions we took, there are already those here who simpathize and support their campaign, so another attack is inevitable.

Quote:

3)Realise that we will become caught in a cycle of violence just like the Palestinians and Israelis if we continue to try and solve this matter through violence. The only way violence can "win" is if one side completely erradicate by the other. Refer to points one and two to see why it is impossible to completely erradicate "terrorists"



Your third point has merit, we ARE caught in a cycle of violence. The problem though, as you demonstrated your understanding of later in your post, is that even if we stopped using force against them, they WILL NEVER stop against us. Their wish that our way of life be destroyed. This is so far an unsolvable problem. They will continue to recruit more members in their offensive to eradicate us. As I don't see an end coming to these terrorists, I would rather bring the battle to them, and keep them on the run.

Quote:

4)Act peacefully and respectfully towards our so called enemies and try to understand their grievances towards us. Whilst in the short term acting peacefully may seem like a poor course of action especially if terrorists carry out another attack in our borders (see point 2) in the long term we will see far fewer muslims becoming terrorists as their perception of us changes based on the way we act.
I am not saying we shouldnt use small special forces teams to eliminate/capture KNOWN terrorists on an individual basis outside our borders, just that we shouldnt bomb merry hell out of entire countries killing thousands of civillians.




I fucking refuse to respect these pieces of shit. Understand their grievances? Their grievances with us are that our women are equal to men, that we can drink alcohol, watch and produce pornography, worship (or not) how we please, and whatever else they think we do wrong. They think we're Satan, and anyone else who doesn't agree with them. Read the post Pinky made about the the al Quida website that is now calling for attacks on Canada as a "top" Christian target.

As far as massive bombing goes, that is pretty much ended. There are few instances where we are still bombing, mainly in Afghanistan, but usually against those in remote regions with alot of firepower. The vast majority of our military campaign is exactly what you condone.

As far as designating some of these people as "innocent", though I believe a stretch. The attack in Faludjah the other day, where civilian contractors who were protecting a FOOD CONVOY to feed these people, were attacked and killed is a good example. Their bodies were burned, beaten, dragged through the streets and then hung from a bridge. Was this the work of what you label terrorists? Because it was a mob of hundreds of "civilians". There were 10 YEAR OLD CHILDREN repeatedly stomping the skulls of these men screaming "God is Great!". You want me to act peacefully and respectfully against these animals?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2514069 - 04/01/04 10:56 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No amount of vigilance could ever protect us completely. No matter what actions we took, there are already those here who simpathize and support their campaign, so another attack is inevitable.



The same could be said for your plan of action. You're talking about swinging a bat at a beehive, while we're just trying not to provoke the bees.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2514230 - 04/01/04 11:02 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Since you have repeatedly claimed that I have some extremist idea of how to deal with this situation, I ask that you please go back and quote what I've said that has led to this belief.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2514695 - 04/01/04 11:20 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, the sad thing is that your ideas aren't all that extreme for an American. There are many who think it'd be perfectly acceptable if we bombed the whole region. Basically, I'm just saying that I don't agree with the premise that the best defense is a good offense. I think that the more a country becomes involved in the politics of the region, the bigger the target they are. If you stay out of people's business, then sure, some people might still go after you, but I'm sure it would be a lot fewer people, and therefore would be easier to handle. Of course, a few might still succeed, but they most likely would have succeeded whether or not we were actively going out and killing terrorists(and of course, the word "terrorist" is such a loaded word that it could easily be manipulated to the interests of those in power).


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2514799 - 04/01/04 11:24 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

silversoul7writes:

If you stay out of people's business, then sure, some people might still go after you, but I'm sure it would be a lot fewer people, and therefore would be easier to handle.

Then Canada has nothing to worry about. I'm sure they'll be relieved to hear that.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: Phred]
    #2514848 - 04/01/04 11:26 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Canada doesn't have the military we have. I don't know how good their intelligence agencies are, but hopefully their Prime Minister listens to them when they talk about a terrorist plot to fly planes into buildings.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2514999 - 04/01/04 11:32 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Well we certainly haven't had any terrorist attacks, or even credible threats, here in Canada :smirk:

The last time we had to deal with terrorism, it was from within the country (bunch of crazy Quebecois!).


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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Sanity check [Re: trendal]
    #2515161 - 04/01/04 11:39 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, the FLQ crisis. I was going to school in Ottawa at the time martial law was declared. It was pretty intense for a while.

pinky


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sanity check [Re: Phred]
    #2517884 - 04/02/04 02:35 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Yep, they even kidnapped and murdered Quebec's labour minister... Pierre LaSomething. It was a pretty wild moment in Canada's history, and they seem to hardly touch on it in history classes.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Sanity check [Re: Phluck]
    #2517948 - 04/02/04 03:34 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Aren't they all called Pierre LaSomething?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2523762 - 04/04/04 03:27 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Iraq is done. No amount of debate or wishing will change that fact. It would greatly complicate matters if we were to just pull out. 




How about letting the UN take contro? as Im sure most Iraqi's would prefer.

Quote:

It would certainly embolden those who battle us and create a stage that would magnify the entire dilemma.
 




How exactly?

Quote:

No amount of vigilance could ever protect us completely. No matter what actions we took, there are already those here who simpathize and support their campaign, so another attack is inevitable.
 




Doesnt this contradict your belief that bombing Afghanistan has made us safer? How has it made us safer if another attack is inevitable?

 
Quote:

The problem though, as you demonstrated your understanding of later in your post, is that even if we stopped using force against them, they WILL NEVER stop against us.




I said no such thing. I suggest you reread what I actually said and stop trying to fit it into your world view. My point was that if we were to begin acting in a peaceful manner we may still suffer some attacks but in the long run we would be safer because the terrorists would die out. If we continue to try and bomb the terrorists out of existence and also kill thousands of civillians in the process we will only see an increase in the amount of terrorists.

Quote:

fucking refuse to respect these pieces of shit. Understand their grievances? 




Some may have become terrorists because their entire family were killed by western bombing. To my mind that is a legitimate grievance.

Quote:

Their grievances with us are that our women are equal to men, that we can drink alcohol, watch and produce pornography, worship (or not) how we please, and whatever else they think we do wrong. 




These maybe some of the reasons that they wish to attack us but to think these are the only reasons is fairly close minded. If you think US foreign policy in the middle east has nothing to do with it then I suggest you think again.

Quote:

As far as massive bombing goes, that is pretty much ended. 




Whats your point? That because the bombing has ended it is no longer relevant and the Afghans and Iraqis should quit whining about it?

Quote:

As far as designating some of these people as "innocent", though I believe a stretch.




Are you telling me that no innocent people have died in this conflict?  :mad:

Quote:

You want me to act peacefully and respectfully against these animals? 




Why not? You dont seem to have a problem showing respect for the kind of animals who have used cluster bombs which are responsible for the deaths of hundreds, maybe thousands, of children in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or those that would bomb crucial water and electriity supplies that can in no way be deemed a military target. It seems like you are stuck in an us and them mentality where you are incapable of seeing our own crimes. Im not defending those who kill innocent people on either side, you however are.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Sanity check [Re: GazzBut]
    #2523894 - 04/04/04 05:48 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No amount of vigilance could ever protect us completely. No matter what actions we took, there are already those here who simpathize and support their campaign, so another attack is inevitable.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Doesnt this contradict your belief that bombing Afghanistan has made us safer? How has it made us safer if another attack is inevitable?

Why is it that one can not be safer yet still not completely safe?

He didn't contradict himself at all.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sanity check [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2524112 - 04/04/04 09:56 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I take your point. But to be honest I believe that in the long run what has happened in Afghanistan and Iraq puts us in far more danger, not less.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: GazzBut]
    #2524702 - 04/04/04 02:25 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

How about letting the UN take contro? as Im sure most Iraqi's would prefer.

Considering that the date for the interim government transition to power is June 30, what's the point? All the prominent leaders have accepted this. By attempting to now turn the job over to the control of the U.N., you would only create more bureaucracy and ultimately a longer, more difficult transition.

Also, why is that everyone thinks the U.N. should be the ultimate authority in these matters. They have proven themselves a nearly worthless organization, rampant with corruption and mismanagement. I believe the organization is in dire need of a complete overhaul, if not the disbandment and creation of new.

How exactly?

Their operations there attempt to disrupt our actions, and amass support against us. If the ultimate goal is for democracy in Iraq, I don't think you would argue that their operations are counterproductive to that end.
If we were to just up and quit, another Saddam, or most likely even worse, could rise to power. Terrorists actions would be proven effective at forcing capitulation. And most simply, motivations are bolstered by a perceived win.

Doesnt this contradict your belief that bombing Afghanistan has made us safer? How has it made us safer if another attack is inevitable?

As luv said.

I said no such thing. I suggest you reread what I actually said and stop trying to fit it into your world view. My point was that if we were to begin acting in a peaceful manner we may still suffer some attacks but in the long run we would be safer because the terrorists would die out. If we continue to try and bomb the terrorists out of existence and also kill thousands of civillians in the process we will only see an increase in the amount of terrorists.

Well notice I didn't say you had a complete understanding of the situation. You claimed that if we were to "act peacfully" (which I interpreted as no large scale military actions, only small tactical teams to neutralize proven terrorists) then we may still have attacks, but the recruitment efforts of the extremists would be hampered as these people saw that we really aren't that bad after all. Right?

Now you claim, that the influx of new terrorists would not only be reduced, but that they would "die out." That would assume that the only reason these people take issue with us is our policy towards them. You obviously don't believe that as you later in your post admitted that it is our very way of life that they take issue with, you just seem to think that it is our conduct in their regions that is the bigger influence. But have you read the post about the call for violence against Canada as a desirable Christian target? What policy of theirs is it that these people take issue with?

I have already said I believe that our foreign policy is a factor in their feelings towards us. I have no doubt that some will see our actions as justification for joining the battle against us.

So might our actions result in the short term surge of willing participants? Probably. But since I believe that that their biggest issue is the fear that our philosophy of life would invade their lands and the minds of "their" people, I think the realization of this fear is the worst casuality we could inflict upon their cause. I'm not advocating that we push our society on them in it's entirety. I think that the extremists recognize that many of these people want the freedoms that we enjoy, and have already demonstrated their willingness to adopt them given the chance. This is direct contrast with the totalitarian church-state they wish to impose, which wouldn't allow personal choice, but force what they interpret as the will of God on everyone. The introduction of democracy will only fuel the desire of those who want to excercise their right to free will.

I don't believe that even this would entirely defeat those who want to force these goals upon everyone, there will always be those who would join their cause if for nothing else than a sense of purpose. But if the majority of the people embrace these ideals of freedom, what better way to stop the influx of those desirous to destroy that freedom.

The extremists would likely turn their attempts at these, their own people, further islolating them. And if the governments in power are representitive of the people, they'll be better equipped to control the threat. If they aren't representitive of the people, then as the desire for freedom grows, the likelihood of them remaining in power will continuously erode.

I think that encompasses the next few of your points, but I'll clarify if there's something I missed.

Are you telling me that no innocent people have died in this conflict?

I think it was obvious to what I was referring.

Why not? You dont seem to have a problem showing respect for the kind of animals who have used cluster bombs which are responsible for the deaths of hundreds, maybe thousands, of children in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or those that would bomb crucial water and electriity supplies that can in no way be deemed a military target. It seems like you are stuck in an us and them mentality where you are incapable of seeing our own crimes. Im not defending those who kill innocent people on either side, you however are.

Please look at this rationally. This is a simply a matter of perception. Since you disagree with the way we are handling the situation, you look at the negative aspects (of which certainly exist) and use that to support your opposition. Since I believe that our operations there will ultimately lead to a safer, more secure world, with less potential for loss of life, I view these tragedies (believe it or not, that is how I see the loss of innocent life) a neccesary evil. As much as I wish it weren't, I see it an unescapable consequence to the correct plan of action.

I remember reading that the DOD issued a statement claiming that they reserved the right to target infrastructure like water and electricity. I also read more material that said they were doing everything possible to avoid damaging the same. Even though it would effect the civilian population, how can you claim these aren't valid military targets?

As far as being stuck "in an us and them mentality", how can it be anything but? When they've demonstrated their desire to kill me and destroy my country, and all of those who disagree with them, how do interpret this any differently?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

Edited by HagbardCeline (04/04/04 02:31 PM)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2530445 - 04/06/04 02:27 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Ok I will amend point 1) to - 1) Do not invade anymore countries and pretend its a war on terror as the killing of innocent muslims will surely breed more terrorists making the world a more dangerous place im sure you will agree.


Quote:

Their operations there attempt to disrupt our actions, and amass support against us.




Alot of the troubles in Iraq at the moment are not really being carried out by what you can really call terrorists. Many of them are normal citizens. Many of them come from the part of the population which suffered most under Saddam. They are not merely trying to disrupt the coalitions actions they are actively protesting against those actions. Something that will become harder to do if more newspapers are banned by the coalition.

Quote:

Well notice I didn't say you had a complete understanding of the situation.




Implying that you do? Thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning.

Quote:

you just seem to think that it is our conduct in their regions that is the bigger influence.




Im fairly certain that it is ours and Israels conduct in the middle east which provides the greatest impetus to terrorist such as Al-qaeda. We have an extremist core of muslims in the UK who are becoming more and more vocal in their hatred of the west and they focus almost exclusively on Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine as the areas they are fighting against. The Spanish bombers who have just been caught/blown up all enjoyed the trappings of western life such as western girlfriends, alcohol, weed etc. The reason they were letting off bombs on trains was the war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I think the whole hatred of our lifestyle and freedoms etc come a very distant second to our foreign policy in motivating the terrorists. Once you hate someone you will start to hate everything about them.

So I do think that if the only reason we gave to the terrorists to attack us was our lifestyle I am sure we would not see many attacks - but lets face it, we havent exactly been overrun with terrorist attacks anyway have we? We have killed far, far more muslims.

Quote:

But have you read the post about the call for violence against Canada as a desirable Christian target? What policy of theirs is it that these people take issue with?





Surely every country in the western world is a desirable Christian target. As I mentioned earlier, that is not why Spain was attacked.


Quote:

I think the realization of this fear is the worst casuality we could inflict upon their cause. I'm not advocating that we push our society on them in it's entirety.




I think the terrorists might have similar ideas. Lets wait and see what kind of government the Iraqi's choose first before declaring that they yearn for a live just like ours. Thats if they actually get the choices they want.
To be honest, Im not really sure your bomb them and build Mcdonalds philosophy would be the most effective. It would probabaly make alot of westerners rich though wouldnt it? Perish the thought that unbridled greed has got anything to do with this fucked up affair though eh?

Quote:

Please look at this rationally. This is a simply a matter of perception.




Duh! I understand that it is a matter of perception...I just think your perception has been skewed!

Quote:

Even though it would effect the civilian population, how can you claim these aren't valid military targets?





Yeah if we hadnt have blown up the water and electicity supplies we would never have won that war!


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2531009 - 04/06/04 09:43 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Of course your old man is 100% correct.

As the world grows "smaller" more and more people will come to understand it.
I just hope it isn't too late.

If it is we just get to take the big dirt nap together.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2532242 - 04/06/04 04:01 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Silversoul seems to be implying the if the US capitulates to the demands of terrorists and anti-American activists everything will be ok. I suggest he read Alan Dershowitz's book "Why Terrorism Works". Giving terrorists what they want only makes them more confident and encourages more violence. The best way to deal with is not to. Not to listen to their complaints, not to give attention to their cause. In this case the best deterent is force, to fight and win. There can be no compromise or diplomatic solution in dealing with terrorists.

Moreover, people hating America has alot more to do IMO with their own press and government. It is pretty easy to see why Europe hates us: just watch their news programs, and compare their weak socialist economies and lack of global influence with US hegemony. Their press deliberately portrays the US as negatively as possible to indulge the public's national inferiority complex.
In the Middle East the problem involves people living under the poverty of oppressive autocracies who are likewise distracted from their own problems by focusing on America and Israel. Fundamentalists fed up with their own living conditions use Islam to justify violently projecting their frustration onto American and Israeli civilians.

What America does simply does not matter in terms of world opinion. Any action can be interpereted by a government, press or public to be good or bad. Once again compare Kosovo to Iraq. The situation in Iraq was far worse than in Kosovo, but the US/Nato attack of Yugoslavia which also had its fair share of collateral causaulties and refugees, was hailed as a humanitarian intervention, while Iraq was deemed an unjust genocidal bloodfest for oil. If Europe did not have an interest in Kosovo, or had an interest threatened as in the case of their Iraqi oil contracts, then Kosovo would also have been seen as a symbol of US imperialism and aggression.
Anti-Americanism exists because of a flawed and uncritical interpretaion of facts and the presumption of motives. If someone believes your motives are always bad it is impossible to prove them wrong by your acts, since they could always reason that you do good things to hide your bad motives, or you simply have bad motives to do good things.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sanity check [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2532443 - 04/06/04 05:09 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Are you actually being serious??!


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* Inspectors conclude "No WMD since 1994" Xlea321 1,373 8 03/04/04 11:53 PM
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* Possible Ceasefire?..or Propaganda? RonoS 483 2 03/26/03 08:10 AM
by mntlfngrs

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