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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird?
    #827845 - 08/19/02 11:35 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Do you see ANY Middle Eastern names on that list? If they used fake ID, wouldn't a small group of obviously ethnic people with a name like "John Smith" raise any alarms?..just a thought.

QUESTIONS REMAIN OVER 911 PASSENGERLISTS
(Originally published at Rense.com, this version includes additional info)

The passenger NUMBERS of all four airplanes that crashed were published almost straight away. The passengerLISTS or MANIFESTS though were sended to the FBI by the FAA within hours after they crashed. Only parts of those lists were given by the FBI to Associated Press. Those so called victim lists were published by the big agencies from the 12th september 2001 onwards. Those lists were never complete ! Even more ashtonishing; the HIJACKERS were never mentioned on those lists !

This made me curious. I wanted to find out who were on those planes.

Within 48 hours the FBI made public the names of 19 HIJACKERS. But the FBI never released the complete passengerlists. Fortunately the people of the US started to make sites on the internet. On those sites people were invited to make contributions to their loved ones who died on those planes. With their information I succeeded to get the complete lists.

As I said : The numbers were given straight away by United Airlines and American Airlines :
Flight 11 : 81 passengers, 9 flight attendants, 2 pilots, TOTAL : 92 persons.
Flight 175 : 56 passengers, 7 flight attendants, 2 pilots, TOTAL : 65 persons.
Flight 77 : 58 passengers, 4 flight attendants, 2 pilots, TOTAL : 64 persons.
Flight 93 : 37 passengers, 5 flight attendants, 2 pilots, TOTAL : 44 persons. ( On the 11th of september, United Airlines gave a total number of 45 persons. This was corrected the 12th after UA learned that one passenger had purchased 2 tickets.This led the airline initially to report that there were 45 people onboard, when there were, in fact, 44 people onboard.Very strange! See their site.

Those numbers were later never disputed, not by the FAA, neither the FBI. So we suppose those numbers are CORRECT. The FBI gave the names of 19 HIJACKERS. They say :
5 of them were onboard flight 11
5 onboard flight 175
5 onboard flight 77
4 onboard flight 93

As I said: Those names were never on any PUBLISHED passengerlist. But of course they must be on the ORIGINAL passenger manifests, as the FBI knows even on which planes they were each.

This means : If we count all the names on the PUBLISHED passengerlists and we add the HIJACKERS onboard of each plane, we get the total numbers (given above) of persons on those planes . I hope you agree.

I started to search on the internet for those passengerlists. Practically all news agencies copied the lists published initially by the Associated Press. This list was updated several times, but it still contained many mistakes, double counting, etc.

But with help of some VICTIM sites, made by the friends of the victims themselves I managed to get all the names.

TO SEE THE LISTS, SEE BELOW. THESE ARE THE COMPLETE PASSENGERSLISTS OF THE FOUR PLANES THAT CRASHED ON THE 11TH SEPTEMBER 2001, WITHOUT THE HIJACKERS NAMES. THE FIRST TIME YOU SEE THE CORRECT LISTS !!

I can assure you, these lists, are the complete lists . (You can check this . If you see another passengerlist with different names, please type those names on the Google searchmachine and you will find out he or she was on another plane or was a victim in the WTC.)

Now I count :

Flight 93 , 40 persons , plus the number of HIJACKERS given by the FBI, makes 44 persons. This number matches the number above, given by the airlines and the FAA, so this is correct.

Flight 77 , 59 persons , plus the number of HIJACKERS given by the FBI, makes 64 persons. This number matches also, so this is correct.

Flight 175 , 58 persons, plus the number of HIJACKERS given by the FBI, makes 63 persons. This number is not the same as given by the FAA and UA.

Flight 11 , 89 persons, plus the number of HIJACKERS given by the FBI, makes 94 persons. This number TOO is not the same as given by the FAA and AA.

So we have 2 numbers WRONG.
Following the FAA and AA there were 92 people on board flight 11 that crashed into the north tower.
Following the FAA and UA there were 65 people on board flight 175 that crashed into the south tower.
NOBODY CONTESTED THOSE NUMBERS. NEITHER THE FBI WHO HAS THE ORIGINAL PASSENGER MANIFESTS.
THIS MEANS: THE DIFFERENCE MUST BE IN THE NUMBER OF HIJACKERS MENTIONED BY THE FBI.
MR. MUELLER FROM THE FBI AND ASHCROFT FROM THE GOVERNMENT ARE LYING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
INSTEAD OF 5 , THERE WERE 7 HIJACKERS ON FLIGHT 175. 58 PERSONS, PLUS 7 HIJACKERS MAKES 65.
INSTEAD OF 5, THERE WERE 3 HIJACKERS ON FLIGHT 11. 89 PERSONS , PLUS 3 HIJACKERS MAKES 92.

THIS HAS TREMENDOUS CONSEQUENCES. WHY IS THE FBI LYING ? COULD IT BE THAT ATTA AND ALOMARI DIDN'T BOARD FLIGHT 11 ? THAT INSTEAD THEY BOARDED UA FLIGHT 175 ? IS THIS THE REASON MR ASHCROFT REFUSES TO RELEASE THE ORIGINAL FLIGHT MANIFESTS ?

IF THERE WERE 7 HIJACKERS ON FLIGHT 175 AND 3 ON FLIGHT 11, DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE ? WHO WAS THE PILOT ON FLIGHT 11 BEFORE IT CRASHED ? Mr ASHCROFT, WHY ARE YOU LYING? WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT HIDING ? AMERICAN PEOPLE, DEMAND THE THRUTH !!!

Sincerely Yours, NAME REDACTED

American Airlines Flight 11:

A Boeing 767 en route from Boston to Los Angeles. The plane, carrying 81 passengers, nine flight attendants and two pilots, crashed into a tower of New York's World Trade Center about 8:45 a.m. EDT.

Crew:
BARBARA ARESTEGUI, 38, Marstons Mills, Mass., flight attendant.
JEFFREY COLLMAN, 41, Novato, Calif., flight attendant.
SARA LOW, 28, Batesville, Ark., flight attendant.
KAREN MARTIN, 40, Danvers, Mass., flight attendant.
TOM McGUINNESS, 42, of Portsmouth, N.H., was co-pilot of American Airlines
Flight 11. Rick DeKoven, administrator at the church, said McGuinness was
married with two teenage children, a boy and girl. He said church pastors
were with his wife when she was notified Tuesday morning. A prayer service
was held for him Tuesday night. DeKoven called him "a devoted family man,"
who was active in his community and church. He was also a former swimmer at
Boston University.
KATHLEEN NICOSCIA, flight attendant.
JOHN OGONOWSKI, 52, of Dracut, Mass., was the captain on American Flight 11.
A former Air Force pilot, Ogonowski had just celebrated his birthday. He
left a wife and three daughters -- Laura, 16; Caroline, 14; Mary Catherine,
11. He was also a farmer who loved the land. His brother Jim Ogonowski said
his 150-acre property would be preserved as open space, as his brother would
have wanted.
BETTY ONG, 45, Andover, Mass., flight attendant.
JEAN ROGER, 24, Longmeadow, Mass., flight attendant.
DIANNE SNYDER, 42, Westport, Mass., flight attendant.
MADELINE SWEENEY, 35, Acton, Mass., flight attendant.

Passengers:
ANNA WILLIAMS ALLISON, 48, Stoneham, Mass., founder A2 Software Solutions
DAVID ANGELL, 54, was executive producer of the NBC television show
"Frasier." He was flying on American Airlines Flight 11 from Boston to Los
Angeles with his wife Lynn, according to Angell's brother, The Most Rev.
Kenneth Angell, bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Burlington, Vt. The
Angells were returning from their summer home in Chatham, Mass., where
Bishop Angell and other relatives had just spent a joyful family wedding
weekend.
LYNN ANGELL, Pasadena, Calif., David Angell's wife.
SEIMA AOYAMA
MYRA ARONSON, 52, Charlestown, Mass., press and analyst relations manager
CHRISTINE BARBUTO, 32, Brookline, Mass., TJX Co.
BERRY BERENSON, 53, Los Angeles, was an actress and photographer who
appeared in such movies as "Cat People," "Winter Kills" and "Remember My
Name." She was the widow of actor Anthony Perkins and sister of actress
Marisa Berenson. She was on American Airlines Flight 11, returning home from
a Cape Cod vacation. Her spokeswoman, Susan Patricola, called her "one of
the loveliest, greatest people on the Earth." Berenson, whose husband died
in 1992, is survived by two grown sons.
CAROLYN BEUG, 48, Los Angeles.
KELLY BOOMS, 24, Boston, PricewaterhouseCoopers
CAROL BOUCHARD, 43, Warwick, R.I., Kent County Hospital emergency room
secretary.
NEILIE CASEY, Wellesley, Mass., TJX Co.
JEFFREY COOMBS, 42, Abington, Mass., security analyst for Compaq
TARA CREAMER, 30, of Worcester, Mass., worked at T.J.X.
THELMA CUCCINELLO, 71, Wilmot, N.H.
PATRICK CURRIVAN
BRIAN DALE, 43, Warren, N.J., leaves behind a wife and three children.
DAVID DIMEGLIO, Wakefield, Mass.
DONALD DITULLIO, 49, Peabody, Mass., Smith and Nephew
ALBERT DOMINGUEZ
ALEX FILIPOV, 70, Concord, Mass.
CAROL FLYZIK, 40, Plaistow, N.H., medical computer equipment demonstrator
for Meditech
PAUL FRIEDMAN
KARLETON D.B. FYFE, 31, of Brookline, Mass., employed by John Hancock.
PETER GAY, 54, Tewksbury, Mass., vice president and general manager,
Raytheon Co. plant.
LINDA GEORGE, 27, Westboro, Mass., TJX Co.
EDMUND GLAZER, 41, Chatsworth, Calif., CFO and vice president of finance and
administration of MRV communications, a manufacturer of optical network
components and systems. He was aboard American Airlines Flight 11. A native
of Zambia born to South African parents, Glazer immigrated to the United
States when he was 17. He is survived by his wife, Candy, and son, Nathan.
LISA FENN GORDENSTEIN, 41, Needham, Mass., TJX Co.
ANDREW CURRY GREEN, 45, Los Angeles, Calf., director of Business
development, eLogic
PAIGE FARLEY HACKEL, 46, Newton, Mass., spiritual counselor
PETER HASHEM, 40, Tewksbury, Mass., salesman
ROBERT HAYES
TED HENNESSEY, 35, Belmont, Mass., consultant
JOHN HOFER
CORA HOLLAND, 52, Sudbury, Mass., Sudbury Food Pantry at Our Lady of Fatima
Church
NICHOLAS HUMBER, 60, Newton, Mass., owner of Brae Burn Management
WALEED GEORGES ISKANDAR, 34, London, England, chief of digital strategy for
Europe, Monitor Group
JOHN JENKINS
CHARLES JONES, 48, Bedford, Mass., computer programmer
ROBIN KAPLAN, 33, Westboro, Mass., TJX Co.
BARBARA KEATING, 72, Palm Springs, Calif.
DAVID KOVALCIN, 42, Hudson, N.H., Raytheon Co.
JUDY LAROCQUE, 50, Framingham, Mass., founder and CEO of research firm
Market Perspectives
JUDE LARSON, 31, and his wife, Natalie Larson, both of Los Angeles, were
returning from visiting her family near Boston when their plane, American
Flight 11, was hijacked and crashed into the World Trade Center. Jude
Larson, the son of Maui artist Curtis Larson, was returning to the
University of California at Los Angeles, where he attended college. His
father, a former U.S. Marine and Vietnam veteran, said the United States
should not take revenge against the terrorists. "It's not going to bring my
son back," he said. "Where does it all stop?" Natalie Larson was a fashion
model whom Curtis Larson described as "spectacularly beautiful."
NATALIE LARSON, Los Angeles.
N. JANIS LASDEN, 46, Peabody, Mass., General Electric
DANIEL JOHN LEE, 34, Los Angeles
DANIEL C. LEWIN, 31, co-founder of Akamai Technologies in Cambridge, Mass.,
was aboard American Flight 11. He also was the company's chief technology
officer and a board member. Lewin is survived by his wife and two sons.
Lewin, who attended graduate school at MIT, became an instant billionaire --
at least on paper -- in October 1999 when Akamai made its Wall Street debut.
SUSAN MACKAY, 44, Westford, Mass., TJX Co.
CHRIS MELLO, 25, Boston, grew up in Rye, N.Y. and graduated from Princeton
University in 1998. He went into finance and was working for Alta
Communications in Boston when he boarded American Airlines Flight 11 on
Tuesday morning. "The loss of our son has changed our lives," said his
mother, Ellen Mello, a lawyer. "He was a tremendous, incredible kid. But I
know there are so many other people who died. If you live in New York, you
know someone who's not there anymore." Mello is also survived by his father,
Douglas, and brother, J.D.
JEFF MLADENIK, 43, Hinsdale, Ill., interim president at E-Logic
ANTONIO MONTOYA
CARLOS MONTOYA
LAURA LEE MORABITO, 34, Framingham, Mass., national sales manager for Qantas
Airways.
MILDRED NAIMAN, Andover, Mass.
LAURIE NEIRA
RENEE NEWELL, 37, Cranston, R.I., customer service agent at American
Airlines
JACQUELINE NORTON, 60, Lubec, Maine, retiree
ROBERT NORTON, 82, Lubec, Maine, retiree
JANE ORTH, 49, Haverhill, Mass., retired from Lucent Technology
THOMAS PECORELLI, 31, of Los Angeles, a cameraman with Fox Sports and E!
Entertainment Television, was headed home to his pregnant wife on American
Flight 11. "Tom made everyone laugh," a family statement said.
SONIA MORALES PUOPOLO, 58, lived in Miami for six months out of the year and
in the Boston area the rest of the time, former ballet dancer
DAVID RETIK, Needham, Mass.
PHILIP ROSENZWEIG, Acton, Mass., executive with Sun Microsystems
RICHARD ROSS, 58, Newton, Mass., The Ross Group
JESSICA SACHS, 22, Billerica, accountant with PricewaterhouseCoopers
RAHMA SALIE, 28, Boston
HEATHER SMITH, 30, Boston, Beacon Capital Partners
DOUGLAS STONE, 54, Dover, N.H.
XAVIER SUAREZ
MICHAEL THEODORIDIS, 32, Boston, consultant
JAMES TRENTINI, 65, Everett, Mass., retired teacher and assistant principal
MARY TRENTINI, 67, Everett, Mass., retired secretary
PENDYALA VAMSIKRISHNA, 30, Los Angeles, project manager for consulting firm
DTI
MARY WAHLSTROM, 75, Kaysville, Utah.
KENNETH WALDIE, 46, Methuen, Mass., Raytheon Co.
JOHN WENCKUS, 46, Torrance, Calif., tax consultant
CANDACE LEE WILLIAMS, 20, Danbury, Conn., student
CHRISTOPHER ZARBA, 47, Hopkinton, Mass., software engineer at Concord
Communications
United Airlines Flight 175:

A Boeing 767 bound from Boston to Los Angeles. The plane was carrying 56 passengers, two pilots and seven flight attendants. It crashed into the other tower of the World Trade Center shortly after 9 a.m.

Crew:
ROBERT FANGMAN, 33, of Claymont, Del. was a flight attendant on United
Flight 175, which crashed into the World Trade Center's south tower. Debbie
Fangman said her brother was a fun-loving man who enjoyed dancing, gourmet
meals, red wine, pinball and dyeing his close-cropped hair. Fangman had
worked for Verizon Wireless before taking a job with United Airlines in
January. "He really found his calling when he joined the airline," said his
mother, Ruth.
MICHAEL HORROCKS, first officer, and a native of Hershey, Pa.
AMY JARRET, 28, North Smithfield, R.I., flight attendant.
AMY KING, 29, Stafford Springs, Conn., flight attendant
KATHRYN LABORIE, flight attendant
AL MARCHAND, 44, Alamogordo, N.M., flight attendant.
VICTOR SARACINI, 51, Lower Makefield Township, Pa., pilot of Flight 175.
MICHAEL TARROU, 28, Stafford Springs, Conn., flight attendant
ALICIA TITUS, 28, San Francisco, flight attendant

Passengers:
ALONA AVRAHAM, 30, Ashdot, Israel
GARNET "ACE" BAILEY, 53, Lynnfield, Mass., of Lynnfield, Mass., was director
of pro scouting for the Los Angeles Kings ice hockey team. Bailey was
entering his 32nd season as a player or scout in the NHL and his eighth as
the director of pro scouting for the Kings. He spent the previous 13 years
as a scout with the Edmonton Oilers, who won five Stanley Cups during that
time.
MARK BAVIS, 31, of West Newton, Mass., a scout for the Los Angeles Kings
professional hockey team, was aboard United Flight 175. Bavis attended
Boston University, where his twin brother, Michael, is an assistant coach
for the school's hockey team. Bavis is survived by his mother and two
brothers.
GRAHAM BERKELEY, 37, Wellesley, mass., Xerox Corp.
TOURI BOLOURCHI, 69, of Beverly Hills, Calif., a retired nurse born in
Tehran, was a passenger on United Flight 175. She moved to the United States
with her daughters in 1979 following the Islamic revolution. Her husband,
Akbar Bolourchi, joined them two years later by moving his medical practice
to Beverly Hills. Touri Bolourchi, who was fluent in six languages, had
spent two weeks with her daughter and two grandsons in Boston. Her husband
said his wife had not been to Boston for two years because she was afraid of
airplanes.
KLAUS BOTHE, 31, chief of development, BCT Technology AG, Germany
DANIEL BRANDHORST, 42, Los Angeles, Pricewaterhouse lawyer
DAVID BRANDHORST, 3, Los Angeles
JOHN CAHILL, Wellesley, Mass.
CHRISTOFFER CARSTANJEN, 33, Turner Falls, Mass., computer research
specialist at University of Massachusetts
JOHN "Jay" CORCORAN, 44, Norwell, Mass., merchant marine
DOROTHY DEARAUJO, 82, Long Beach, Calif.
GLORIA DE BARRERA, 49, El Salvador, exporter
LISA FROST, 22, Rancho Santa Margarita, Calif., sales and marketing
associate, recent Boston University graduate
RONALD GAMBOA, 33, his partner Daniel Brandhorst, 42, and their son David
Brandhorst, 3, all of Los Angeles, were aboard United Flight 175 on one of
many family trips. "They did a lot of traveling, they were both
family-oriented," said Gamboa's sister, Jeannie Merwin. Gamboa managed Gap
stores in Los Angeles and Brandhorst was a lawyer.
LYNN GOODCHILD, 25, Attleboro, Mass., Putnam Investments
PETER GOODRICH, 33, Sudbury Mass. Products Manager MKS software
FRANCIS GROGAN, 76, Easton, Mass., priest at Holy Cross Church
CARL HAMMOND, 37, Boston
PETER HANSON, 32, Groton, Mass., software salesman
SUSAN HANSON, 35, Groton, Mass., student
CHRISTINE HANSON, 3, Groton, Mass.
GERALD HARDACRE, a 62-year-old Carlsbad resident, had been visiting his
daughter in Boston. "I have lost my best friend and the city has lost a man
who is productive," Hardacre's brother Larry said. "There's a big hole in a
lot of us and we don't know why this had to happen," he added. Hardacre was
an environmental engineer who helped make San Diego a cleaner, better place
to live. Though his life was taken by a despicable act, his family remains
united. "They have broken our hearts, but they are not going to break our
spirits," promised Hardacre's sister-in-law, Gretchen.
ERIC HARTONO, 20, Portland, OR high school student. He was moving from
Boston to Los Angeles.
JAMES E. HAYDEN, Westford, Mass., chief financial officer of Netegrity Inc.
HERBERT HOMER, Milford, Mass.
ROBERT JALBERT, 61, Swampscott, Mass., salesman
RALPH KERSHAW, 52, Manchester-by-the-Sea, Mass., marine surveyor
HEINRICH KIMMIG, 43, chairman of BCT Technology AG, Germany.
BRIAN KINNEY, 29, Lowell, Mass., PriceWaterhouse Cooper auditor
ROBERT LEBLANC, 70, Lee, N.H., professor emeritus of geography, University
of New Hampshire.
MACLOVIO "JOE" LOPEZ JR., 41, Norwalk, Calif.
MARIANNE MacFARLANE
LOUIS NELL MARIANI, 59, Derry, N.H.
JULIANA VALENTINE McCOURT, 4, New London, Conn.
RUTH McCOURT, 45, New London, Conn.
WOLFGANG MENZEL, 60, personnel manager, BCT Technology AG, Germany
SHAWN NASSANEY, 25, Pawtucket, R.I., American Power Conversion
PATRICK QUIGLEY, 40, Wellesley, Mass., partner at PriceWaterhouse Cooper
MARIE PAPPALARDO
FREDERICK RIMMELE, Marblehead, Mass., physician.
JAMES M. ROUX, 42, Portland, Maine
JESUS SANCHEZ, 45, Hudson, Mass., off-duty flight attendant.
KATHLEEN SHEARER, Dover, N.H.
ROBERT SHEARER, Dover, N.H.
JANE SIMPKIN, 35, Wayland, Mass.
BRIAN D. SWEENEY, 38, of Barnstable, Mass. Business consultant. Played
football at Boston University.
TIMOTHY WARD, 38, of San Diego; was an information technology project
manager with Rubio's Baja Grill restaurants. His mother, Susane Ward Baker,
lives in La Mesa, California. Baker told 10News in San Diego that her son
had gone to Boston to accompany his girlfriend on a business trip. He
reportedly decided to come home a little early and boarded United Airlines
Flight 175.
WILLIAM WEEMS, Marblehead, Mass., commercial producer.
American Airlines Flight 77:

A Boeing 757 en route from Dulles Airport near Washington to Los Angeles. The plane was carrying 58 passengers, four flight attendants and two pilots. It crashed into the Pentagon about 9:40 a.m.

Crew:
CAPTAIN CHARLES BURLINGAME, 51, pilot, graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy,
flew fighter planes off the U.S.S. Saratoga.
DAVID CHARLEBOIS, Washington, D.C., first officer
MICHELLE HEIDENBERGER, 57, Chevy Chase, Md., flight attendant.
JENNIFER LEWIS, 38, Culpepper, Va., flight attendant
KENNETH LEWIS, 49, Culpepper, Va., flight attendant
RENEE MAY, 39, Baltimore, Md., flight attendant

Passengers:
DR. PAUL AMBROSE, 32, physician.
YEMEN BETRU, 35, Burbank, Calif., director of medical affairs for hospital
services company IPC
M.J. BOOTH
BERNARD BROWN, 11, student, Leckie Elementary School in Washington
SUZANNE CALLEY, 42, San Martin, Calif., employee of Cisco Systems Inc.
WILLIAM CASWELL, 54, Silver Spring, Md., physicist, Navy
SARAH CLARK, 65, Columbia, Md., sixth-grade teacher, Backus Middle School in
Washington
ZANDRA COOPER, Annandale, Va.
ASIA COTTOM, 11, student at Backus Elementary School in Washington, D.C.
JAMES DEBEUNEURE, 58, Upper Marlboro, Md., fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham
Elementary School in Washington, D.C.
RODNEY DICKENS, 11, student, Ketcham Elementary School in Washington, D.C.
EDDIE DILLARD
CHARLES DROZ, 52, Springfield, Va., vice president for software development,
EM Solutions Inc.
BARBARA G. EDWARDS, 58, Las Vegas, school teacher at Palo Verde High School
in Las Vegas
CHARLES S. FALKENBERG, 45, University Park, Md., director of research at
ECOlogic Corp., in Herndon, Va.
DANA FALKENBERG, 3, University Park, Md.
ZOE FALKENBERG, 8, University Park, Md.
JAMES JOE FERGUSON, 39, District of Columbia, education outreach director of
National Geographic Society
WILLIAM "BUD" FLAGG, Millwood, Va., retired Navy admiral and pilot for
American Airlines
DARLENE "DEE" FLAGG, Millwood, Va.
RICHARD P. GABRIEL SR., 54, Great Falls, Va., managing partner, Stratin
Consulting
IAN GRAY, 55, Washington, D.C., president of healthcare consulting firm
STANLEY HALL, 68, Rancho Palos Verdes, Calif., Raytheon Co.
BRYAN JACK, 48, Alexandria, Va., senior executive at Defense Department
STEVEN D. "JAKE" JACOBY, 43, Alexandria, Va., chief operating officer,
Metrocall Inc.
ANN JUDGE, 49, Great Falls, Va., travel officer manager, National Geographic
Society
CHANDLER KELLER, 29, of El Segundo, Calif., was a propulsion engineer for
Boeing Satellite Systems and got married last year. Chandler's parents,
Richard and Kathy, live in Del Mar.
YVONNE KENNEDY
NORMA KHAN, 45, Reston, Va., manager of a nonprofit organization
KAREN A. KINCAID, 40, lawyer with the Washington, D.C. law firm of Wiley
Rein & Fielding.
DONG LEE, 48, Leesburg, Va., engineer, Boeing Inc.
DORA MENCHACA, 45, Santa Monica, Calif., associate director of clinical
research for biotech firm
CHRISTOPHER NEWTON, 38, Arlington, Va., executive, Work Life Benefits
BARBARA OLSON, 45, was the wife of U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson.
She was aboard American Flight 77 from Dulles International Airport when it
crashed into the Pentagon. She twice called her husband as the plane was
being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were
using knife-like instruments. Barbara Olson was a chief investigator for the
House Government Reform Committee in the mid-1990s. She later became a
lawyer on the staff of Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles, before branching
out on her own as a TV commentator and private lawyer. She was a frequent
critic of the Clinton administration and wrote a book about Hillary Rodham
Clinton.
RUBEN ORNEDO, 39, Los Angeles, Boeing propulsion engineer
ROBERT PENNIGER, a 63-year-old electrical engineer, worked for defense
contractor BAE Systems in Rancho Bernardo, San Diego. Neighbors say that
Penninger and his wife, Janet, loved to take motorcycle trips together. They
have one daughter, Karen. Penninger has worked for BAE Systems in Rancho
Bernardo for the past 11 years.
ROBERT R. PLOGER III, 59, Annandale, Va., software architect, Lockheed
Martin Corp.
LISA RAINES, 42, senior vice president of biotechnology firm
TODD REUBEN, 40, Potomac, Md., Washington tax and business lawyer
JOHN SAMMARTINO, 37, Annandale, Va., technical manager, XonTech Inc.
YANG SHUYIN, Beijing, China
DIANE SIMMONS
GEORGE SIMMONS
MARI RAE SOPPER, 35, Santa Barbara, Calif., women's gymnastics coash,
UC-Santa Barbara
BOB SPEISMAN, 47, Irvington, N.Y., diamond industry salesman
NORMA LANG STEUERLE, 54, Alexandria, Va.
HILDA TAYLOR, sixth grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington
LEONARD TAYLOR, 44, Reston, Va., technical group manager, XonTech Inc.
SANDRA TEAGUE, 31, a physical therapist at Georgetown University Hospital in
Washington
LESLIE A. WHITTINGTON, 45, University Park, Md., Georgetown University
professor.
JOHN YAMNICKY, 71, Waldorf, Md.
VICKI YANCEY, 44, Springfield, Va., employee of defense contractor
Vredenburg
ZHENG YUGUAG, Beijing, China
United Airlines Flight 93:

A Boeing 757 en route from Newark, N.J., to San Francisco. The plane was carrying 37 passengers, two pilots and five flight attendants. It crashed southeast of Pittsburgh around 10 a.m.

Crew:
LORRAINE BAY, Highstown, N.J., flight attendant, United Airlines.
SANDY BRADSHAW, 38, Greensboro, N.C., flight attendant, United Airlines.
JASON DAHL, 43, Denver, captain, United Airlines
WANDA GREEN, 49, Linden, N.J., flight attendant, United Airlines.
LEROY HOMER, 36, Marlton, N.J., first officer, United Airlines.
CEE CEE LYLES, Fort Myers, Fla., flight attendant, United Airlines.
DEBORAH WELSH, 49, New York, N.Y., flight attendant, United Airlines

Passengers:
CHRISTIAN ADAMS, 37, Biebelsheim, Germany, foreign sales manager, German
Wine Fund
TODD BEAMER, 32, Cranbury, N.J., account manager, Oracle Corp.
ALAN BEAVEN, 48, Oakland, Calif., environmental lawyer
MARK BINGHAM, 31, San Francisco, Calif., public relations firm owner
DEORA BODLEY, a 20-year-old Santa Clara college student, grew up in San
Diego and graduated from La Jolla Country Day School. She is remembered as
compassionate and strong-willed young woman. "Diora would stand up for what
she thought was right. She would go against the opinions of others if she
thought she was doing the right thing," Mary Ann Brower of La Jolla Country
Day School told 10News in San Diego.
MARION BRITTON, 53, assistant regional director, U.S. Census Bureau
THOMAS E. BURNETT JR. 38, San Ramon, Calif., was senior vice president and
chief operating officer of Thoratec Corp., a medical research and
development company. He was aboard United Airlines Flight 93 when the plane
crashed southeast of Pittsburgh, the company said. Burnett had been with
Thoratec since 1996.
WILLIAM CASHMAN
GEORGINE ROSE CORRIGAN was an antique and collectibles dealer who once owned
a shop at Kilohana Square, Honolulu. She was on the East Coast on a buying
trip for a November collectibles show.
PATRICIA CUSHING,69, Bayonne, NJ, retiree.
JOSEPH DELUCA
PATRICK DRISCOLL
EDWARD FELT, 41, Matawan, N.J.
JANE FOLGER,73, Bayonne, NJ, retiree.
COLLEEN FRASER, 51, Elizabeth, N.J., chairwoman, New Jersey Developmental
Disabilities Council
ANDREW GARCIA, 62, Portola Valley, Calif.
JEREMY GLICK, 31, West Milford, N.J.
KRISTIN GOULD
LAUREN GRANDLOCAS, 38, San Rafael, Calif., sales worker at Good Housekeeping
magazine
DONALD F. GREENE, 52, Greenwich, Conn.
LINDA GRONLUND, 46, Warwick, N. Y., environmental compliance, BMW
RICHARD GUADAGNO, 38, of Eureka, Calif., a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
manager at Humboldt Bay National Wildlife Refuge, was on United Flight 93.
He worked for the federal government for 17 years at wildlife reserves in
New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware and Oregon. Anne Badgley, director of the
agency's Pacific Region, described Guadagno as "one of our finest managers."
He is survived by his parents and a sister.
TOSHIYA KUGE, 20, Tokyo, Japan, student
HILDA MARCIN, 79, Budd Lake., N.J., retired teacher's aide
WALESKA MARTINEZ, 37, automation specialist, U.S. Census Bureau
NICOLE MILLER, 21, San Jose, student, West Valley College
LOUIS J. NACKE, 42, New Hope, Pa., distribution center director, KayBee Toys
DONALD PETERSON, New Jersey
JEAN PETERSON, New Jersey, was the daughter of former Armstrong World
Industries Vice President Walter Hoadley.
MARK ROTHENBERG, Scotch Plains, N.J., owner, MDR Global Resources
CHRISTINE SNYDER, 32, Kailua, Hawaii, arboirst, Outdoor Circle
JOHN TALIGNANI, 72, Staten Island, N.Y., retired restaurant worker
HONOR WAINIO



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #827932 - 08/19/02 12:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

another Canadian saves the world..YAY


--------------------

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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #827952 - 08/19/02 12:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

it would appear that we have to since most Americans are in denial...


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #827959 - 08/19/02 12:11 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Have you nothing better to do with your time? Maybe when Canada becomes the next state(s), you'll have bigger fish to fry.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #827991 - 08/19/02 12:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

i thought it already was a state?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #828011 - 08/19/02 12:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Have you nothing better to do with your time?


Yeah I guess trying to expose the truth is pretty silly of me, thanks for setting me straight. Now I'll return to a more productive way of life of watching Britney Spears shaking her tits for the mindless masses.
In reply to:

i thought it already was a state?


You Wish...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/19/02 12:42 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828022 - 08/19/02 12:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

actually i do wish it was a state..the fishing is great and we could finally steal the Toronto Maple Leafs from you (like all the other teams )...the problem is with the "we are never wrong" crowd that infests Canada.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #828026 - 08/19/02 12:47 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

"we are never wrong" crowd that infests Canada


Sounds to me like you have the same problem down south...


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828035 - 08/19/02 12:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

on the contrary, we have many things that are wrong. We are not perfect but we are always trying to achieve it....unlike Canada who already thinks they have


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Rono]
    #828044 - 08/19/02 01:01 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: vatoloco]
    #828063 - 08/19/02 01:09 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

/me prays rono copy/pasted that from somewhere else.


Yes, I did...read the beginning.

The "conspiracy" is where are the "terrorists" names?...do you see any Mid-East names on there?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/19/02 01:35 PM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828066 - 08/19/02 01:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by administrator.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: boxtop703]
    #828073 - 08/19/02 01:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

The passengerLISTS or MANIFESTS though were sended to the FBI by the FAA within hours after they crashed


lol...good one...must be another victim of the U.S. school system...


--------------------
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828093 - 08/19/02 01:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

or just Canadian


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828107 - 08/19/02 01:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Watching Britney shake her tits is not a bad way to waste 5 minutes or so, provided that a)I don't have to listen to her, and b)I have plenty of kleenex.


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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Rono]
    #828108 - 08/19/02 01:37 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: vatoloco]
    #828109 - 08/19/02 01:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I must have missed something, I wasn't sure what your attempt at humour was referring to...


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828116 - 08/19/02 01:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828134 - 08/19/02 02:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

QUESTIONS REMAIN OVER 911 PASSENGERLISTS
(Originally published at Rense.com, this version includes additional info)



Go to the source and marvel that he has an audience.
Rense


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828185 - 08/19/02 02:31 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Hey Rono, after checking out that site, I have your answer.

They were taken away on a UFO!!

I mean really, is that the best you can do?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828200 - 08/19/02 02:36 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

i agree rono, something is very strange in all this. it benefited that monkey leading our nation WAY too much at WAY too critical of a time with WAY too many warnings being ignored... something is amiss...


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #828212 - 08/19/02 02:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

They were taken away on a UFO!!

I mean really, is that the best you can do?



Once again, logic is lost on you Luvdemshrooms...you see what you want to see.


--------------------
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: PeachMan]
    #828215 - 08/19/02 02:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

what happened to your account?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: PeachMan]
    #828219 - 08/19/02 02:42 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

i agree rono, something is very strange in all this. it benefited that monkey leading our nation WAY too much at WAY too critical of a time with WAY too many warnings being ignored... something is amiss...


THANK YOU PEACHMAN! Finally someone has clued in...Personally I don't care what you think about my political beliefs because they are irrelevant, the point is we're all being lied to.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828222 - 08/19/02 02:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

wow 1% believe you..you must feel good

Put on your tin foil hats before it's too late


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #828228 - 08/19/02 02:47 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

If you choose to walk through life with your eyes closed then that's your perogative I suppose.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #828378 - 08/19/02 03:58 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

logic is lost on you Luvdemshrooms




Perhaps it is your logic which is lost, not that I believe your logic on matters regarding the US and its political system ever really existed. Any logic I have seen you show, and yes, there has been some, flies out the window when you start your "the US is evil" rantings. It drops like a rock when you use a web site with stories of UFO's on the home page as proof of your beliefs.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #829498 - 08/20/02 06:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So because you don't believe in UFO's (which are a mathematical probability by the way) then the rest of the site is bullshit?...Did you even LOOK at the rest of the site? I suspect not....That's okay...Just keep living in your bubble. And instead of providing any original feedback or thought provoking posts, please continue to show your ignorance by posting derogatory remarks and one liners. You have yet to refute ANY thing I've said with sources of your own....and for the record I NEVER said the U.S. was evil, I just said that the U.S. government is corrupt...and that's not exactly a huge secret to anybody besides you apparently. I think the U.S. is an awesome country that is letting it's leaders run the country into the ground, and bringing the rest of the world with it.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/20/02 06:51 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829566 - 08/20/02 07:17 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

So because you don't believe in UFO's (which are a mathematical probability by the way)
Mathematical probability? Wishful thinking is more like it. The probability is unknown, any figures touted are pure conjecture.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829571 - 08/20/02 07:18 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

****So because you don't believe in UFO's (which are a mathematical probability by the way)****

and you have evidence...right?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #829579 - 08/20/02 07:22 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not here to talk about UFO's are you?...if you like we can change forums and I would be glad to discuss my opinions on the matter...but in the mean time let's try to keep this on topic shall we?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #829639 - 08/20/02 07:55 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Everything is a mathematical probability.
Somethings are a mathematical probability of zero.

I like the conspiracy to make a mistake theme.

Americans always know the truth, we just don't tell Canada.


Edited by 905 (08/20/02 08:00 AM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #829650 - 08/20/02 08:01 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

*sigh*....once again, this is NOT about UFO's...please go somewhere else if that's what you want to discuss.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829663 - 08/20/02 08:06 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

You brought it up.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #829673 - 08/20/02 08:09 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

no..I didn't. Anyways, stick to the topic please...and that's about the passenger lists...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829706 - 08/20/02 08:28 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with Rono in the sense that something is not right with the official story that the US government is giving regarding the events of Sept. 11. This is not an anti-US rant, and I admit that Canada has some pretty large flaws, so perhaps we can deal with the substance of the matter rather then getting in one of the useless US vs. Canada debates.
Granted, I do not know much about the passenger lists but when there have been confirmed reports of Intelligance Agencies around the world providing information on the nature of the attacks, the departure point and the very week in which it was to happen and the White House officials are saying that they were caught by complete surprise, then there is a problem...



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Censorship: ahh, McCarthyism with a smiley face



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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829709 - 08/20/02 08:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

ha ha..sorry i found this a bit funny..i won't bring up UFO's again..i was just trying to poke a little fun at you...man you Canadians don't have a sense of humor...ie: the Kids in the hall


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: politikill]
    #829721 - 08/20/02 08:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

***This is not an anti-US rant,***

wow..another canadian..go figure

****I admit that Canada has some pretty large flaws, so perhaps we can deal with the substance of the matter rather then getting in one of the useless US vs. Canada debates.****

why? you mean you like to talk about others faults instead of your own?...hmmm how very canadian of you.

****there have been confirmed reports of Intelligance Agencies around the world providing information on the nature of the attacks, the departure point and the very week in which it was to happen and the White House officials are saying that they were caught by complete surprise, then there is a problem...****

i would love to see these CONFIRMED reports you silly canadians keep talking about...confirmed does not mean listed on the ONION.COM site mind you


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829723 - 08/20/02 08:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Why is it easier to beleive in conspiracies and coverups and mass hypnosis
than to beleive that terrorists did it.After all the terrorists admitted to doing it.





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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #829730 - 08/20/02 08:37 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

many of them are terrorist sympathizers(sp)


--------------------

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Edited by Innvertigo (08/20/02 08:38 AM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #829758 - 08/20/02 08:48 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

i would love to see these CONFIRMED reports you silly canadians keep talking about...confirmed does not mean listed on the ONION.COM site mind you




Here ya go... Bush Knows bear in mind this is written by an American, who is ex LAPD officer, who has an extensive background with the CIA...and all the sources are referenced for you.


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Edited by Rono (08/20/02 08:51 AM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829765 - 08/20/02 08:51 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I've only read the first paragraph thus far and i'm already laughing...

I quote:

"April 22, 2002, 12:00 PDT (FTW) (Revised May 18, 2002) -- A dispassionate examination of existing reliable, open-source evidence on advance warnings of the Sept. 11 attacks provides strong and sustainable grounds to conclude the Bush Administration was in possession of sufficient advance intelligence to have prevented the attacks, had it wished to do so. With a known intelligence budget of approximately $30 billion, it must be assumed there are classified files that only add to the weight of the available data presented here."

Key word being assumed
but i'll read on


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829776 - 08/20/02 08:58 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This proves we have crazy people running around
in the US, just like you
do.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #829781 - 08/20/02 09:01 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I can't stop laughing...not at the topic because it's truley tragic but the fact that this is taken seriously. The US gets these sort of threats everyday, as does Isreal. Everyday the President gets a list of HOT issues that he and other heads of state have to sift through as to the relavence of it. It's easy to link everything together after the fact, hindsight is always 20/20. To say that we actually knew this was going to happen is plain BS. The article also mention that an american or Isreali site would be the target.....do you know how many sites that is? Thousands. If we knew then what we knew now we would of shut everything down, and guess what? It would of happened the next week or someother time. Rememeber they didn't have guns and bombs so even if we did catch them what could we of done? Wouldn't that be PROFILING? The Libbies in this country would of gone crazy. To summerize that article i will say this: it's easy to place blame after the fact.

it was quite a funny and sad read at the same time


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #829782 - 08/20/02 09:01 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

905, perhaps you should try actualy reading the subject matter before you make smart-ass comments. If you have a relevant arguement feel free to state your case...

Invertigo, you asked for a reference, and I provided it...if you decide to ignore it that's fine. I just find it odd that you don't see anything suspicious about the whole thing...


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Edited by Rono (08/20/02 09:10 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829805 - 08/20/02 09:14 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I read enough.
The insider trading was blamed on the terrorists.
ect,ect,ect
Read your thread, I am not the only one finding it hard
to take this seriously.Try the security forum.


Edited by 905 (08/20/02 09:18 AM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #829817 - 08/20/02 09:18 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Ah...I see...okay let's assume what you say is true, it was only the terrorists. Shouldn't have someone been alerted by the dramatic increase in trading on these stocks?...There is supposed to be measures in place to monitor these actions...why weren't any alarms raised?


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #829841 - 08/20/02 09:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know the stock market.
Now you are getting into an area that implies
that wall street was involved and the foriegn markets.
What about your government, they didn't notice it either.

You said the conspiracy is where are the hijackers names.
First off criminal investigations and security matters are usually kept somewhat secretive.no conspiracy.

I saw reports of terrorists using identity theft of living people.
We may not have confirmed identities on everyone.no conspiracy.









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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #829857 - 08/20/02 09:35 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

If the stock market is involved of course wall street is involved..they are one and the same. Our government does not have any control over Wall street, and Canada is not free from blame either...if you took the time to read the Mike Vreeland article you will see that we also had info that was not disclosed. Like I've said over and over again..this is not..I repeat IS NOT an anti American theme...you are just taking that way.

In reply to:

Recently, Rep. Cynthia McKinney, D-Ga., has been widely criticized in the mainstream press for raising the need for a Congressional investigation to answer some of these obvious questions. This, in spite of the fact that popular reaction indicates a different sentiment. An opinion poll, conducted by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution just a day after McKinney's remarks received wide public attention in a Washington Post story dated April 12, was pulled after poll numbers showed that 51 percent of the respondents agreed with McKinney.




--------------------
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Edited by Rono (08/20/02 09:41 AM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #830117 - 08/20/02 11:40 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

So because you don't believe in UFO's (which are a mathematical probability by the way) then the rest of the site is bullshit?...



Actually, I'd be amazed if we are the only intelligent life forms in the universe. Most of my scorn for that site was because I DID look at more of it. You really need to stop leaping to conclusions the way you do.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #830122 - 08/20/02 11:42 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

And I was careful to keep my remarks neutral. There was nothing there I consider derogatory. And if I feel one line is sufficent, why go on?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830132 - 08/20/02 11:45 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Okay people..could we PLEASE get past the UFO thing? It's irrelevant...please address the rest of my posts.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #830150 - 08/20/02 11:52 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

When you use a web site like the one you provided a link to, when you seem to believe their words as gospel, when you find a conspiracy behind every closed door, and when you use McKinney's words as support, you become impossible to take seriously. McKinney is a nut case whos own party has disavowed her rantings.

I have been reading down and responding as I go which is why I responded to the posts on the UFO's.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #830154 - 08/20/02 11:53 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Like I've said over and over again..this is not..I repeat IS NOT an anti American theme




Sure.... sure.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #830157 - 08/20/02 11:54 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Our government does not have any control over Wall street...
Of course not, you're Canadian, Wall Street is in the U.S. Why is this relevent?


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #830165 - 08/20/02 11:58 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Ah...I see...okay let's assume what you say is true, it was only the terrorists. Shouldn't have someone been alerted by the dramatic increase in trading on these stocks?...There is supposed to be measures in place to monitor these actions...why weren't any alarms raised?




Yes we should have just grounded all the airplanes. We should just keep them grounded just in case someone wants to try this again. While we're at it, lets take every tip as gospel and act as if it's a certainty that it will happen. There must only be a few hundred tips a day, what the hell... let's just all stay home all the time. Then we'll be safe. Oh wait.... what if the house catches on fire. We'd better stay outside. Wait.... what if there's a tornado or lightening. Crap, let's just all kill ourselves now.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #830191 - 08/20/02 12:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, U.S. intelligence has to deal with this kind of shit all the time...but when you have foreign intelligence angencies ALL telling you the same thing, listing dates and methods, and who is involved that's a different story. Now I'm no expert on security or intelligence, but that's what many people like to call a "Clue"


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Edited by Rono (08/20/02 12:07 PM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #830195 - 08/20/02 12:06 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Our government does not have any control over Wall street...
Of course not, you're Canadian, Wall Street is in the U.S. Why is this relevent?


Please read the post I was replying to...it may make more sense.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #831199 - 08/20/02 08:32 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

****I agree, U.S. intelligence has to deal with this kind of shit all the time****

yeah like terrorists comming from Canada...thanks guys..nice security

****but when you have foreign intelligence angencies ALL telling you the same thing, listing dates and methods****

there's only one problem....there was no exact place mentioned...should we have profiled all arabs in the US? I like the idea of profiling...too bad the socialists don't

****Now I'm no expert on security or intelligence****

shocking

****but that's what many people like to call a "Clue" ****

we have hundreds of "clues" a day....remember we have 270 million people to sift through....


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Edited by Innvertigo (08/20/02 08:32 PM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #831264 - 08/20/02 08:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Seems pretty unlikely that the US government would have known about the attacks in advance.


--------------------
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Phluck]
    #831477 - 08/20/02 10:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

ya think?


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Phluck]
    #831704 - 08/21/02 12:41 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Oh my! A glimmer of intelligence.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #832101 - 08/21/02 06:41 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Fine, if you don't want to believe that the U.S. government had foreknowledge after the rediculous amount of evidence I've provided showing otherwise...thats your business. I have posted a timeline regarding this complete with (mainstream) references...and I will post it again for your benefit. Just the Mike Vreeland story alone SHOULD be enough to at least make you suspicious...

November 2, 2001, 12:00 PST -- On October 31 the French daily Le Figaro dropped a bombshell. While in a Dubai hospital receiving treatment for a chronic kidney infection last July, Osama bin Laden met with a top CIA official -- presumably the chief of station. The meeting, held in bin Laden's private suite, took place at the American hospital in Dubai at a time when he was a wanted fugitive for the bombings of two U.S. embassies and last year's attack on the U.S.S. Cole. Bin Laden was eligible for execution according to a 2000 intelligence finding issued by President Bill Clinton before leaving office in January. Yet on July 14, 2001 he was allowed to leave Dubai on a private jet, and there were no Navy fighters waiting to force him down.

In 1985 Oliver North -- the only member of the Reagan-Bush years who doesn't appear to have a hand in the current war -- sent the Navy and commandos after terrorists on the cruise ship Achille Lauro. In his 1991 autobiography "Under Fire," while describing terrorist Abu Abbas, North wrote, "I used to wonder: how many dead Americans will it take before we do something?" One could look at the number of Americans Osama bin Laden is alleged to have killed before Sept. 11 and ask the same question.

It gets worse, much worse. A more complete timeline listing crucial events both before and after the Sept. 11 suicide attacks, which have been blamed on bin Laden, establishes CIA foreknowledge of them and strongly suggests that there was criminal complicity on the part of the U.S. government in their execution. It also makes clear that the events that have taken place since Sept. 11 are based upon an agenda that has little to do with the attacks.

[June 19, 2002] -- As the revelations of Bush Administration foreknowledge have progressed from silence, to trickle, to cascade, the question has now changed from forcing the evidence into the open into one of forcing both the media and the people to avoid denying this information in the hopes that their desire for a sense of "normalcy" can be fulfilled. As many of us have known for years, normalcy went out the window forever when the first plane hit the tower. And what has been revealed will not be resolved with an expensive fact-finding commission, a few firing, or even an impeachment proceeding. What is needed in America -- and in the global economic system -- is an overhaul, not a tune up.

1. 1991-1997 - Major U.S. oil companies including ExxonMobil, Texaco, Unocal, BP Amoco, Shell and Enron directly invest billions in cash bribing heads of state in Kazakhstan to secure equity rights in the huge oil reserves in these regions. The oil companies further commit to future direct investments in Kazakhstan of $35 billion. Not being willing to pay exorbitant prices to Russia to use Russian pipelines, the major oil companies have no way to recoup their investments. [Source: "The Price of Oil" by Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, July 9, 2001 - The Asia Times, "The Roving Eye Part I Jan. 26, 2002.]

2. January 1995 - Philippine police investigating a possible attack on the Pope uncover plans for Operation Bojinka, connected to World Trade Center (WTC) bomber Ramsi Youssef. Parts of the plan call for crashing hijacked airliners into civilian targets. Details of the plan are disclosed in Youssef's 1997 trial for the 1993 WTC bombing. [Source: Agence France-Presse, Dec. 7, 2001]

3. Dec. 4, 1997 - Representatives of the Taliban are invited guests to the Texas headquarters of Unocal to negotiate their support for the pipeline. Subsequent reports will indicate that the negotiations failed, allegedly because the Taliban wanted too much money. [Source: The BBC, Dec. 4, 1997]

4. Feb. 12, 1998 - Unocal Vice President John J. Maresca -- later to become a special ambassador to Afghanistan -- testifies before the House that until a single, unified, friendly government is in place in Afghanistan, the trans-Afghani pipeline needed to monetize the oil will not be built. [Source: Testimony before the House International Relations Committee.]

5. August 1998 - After the U.S. cruise missile attacks on Al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan in retaliation for the African embassy bombings, Unocal officially withdraws from participation in the CentGas trans-Afghani gas pipeline project. [Various sources, Unocal]

6. 1998 -- The CIA ignores warnings from Case Officer Robert Baer that Saudi Arabia was harboring an Al Qaeda cell led by two known terrorists. A more detailed list of known terrorists is offered to Saudi intelligence in August 2001 and refused. [Source: Financial Times Jan. 21, 2001; "See No Evil" by Robert Baer (release date February 2002)]

7. April 1999 - Enron with a $3 billion investment to build an electrical generating plant at Dabhol, India loses access to plentiful LNG supplies from Qatar to fuel the plant. Its only remaining option to make the investment profitable is a trans-Afghani gas pipeline to be built by Unocal from Turkmenistan that would terminate near the Indian border at the city of Multan. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002]

8. 1998 and 2000 - Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No. 7 - "The Best Enemies Money Can Buy"

9. March 2000 - An FBI agent, reportedly angry over a glitch in Carnivore that has somehow mixed innocent non-targeted emails with those belonging to Al Qaeda, destroys all of the FBI's Denver-based intercepts of bin Laden's colleagues in a terrorist investigation. [Source: The Washington Post, May 29, 2002]

10. 2000 (est.) - The FBI refuses to disclose the date of an internal memo stating that a Middle Eastern nation had been trying to purchase a flight simulator. [Source: Los Angeles Times, May 30, 2002]

11. August 2000 -- Suspected Al Qaeda operatives wiretapped by Italian police made apparent references to plans for major attacks involving airports, airplanes and the United States according to transcripts obtained by the Los Angeles Times. The Times suggests that the information might not have been passed to U.S. authorities (hard to believe), but it did report that Italian authorities would not comment on the report. The Times also noted that "Italian and U.S. anti-terrorism experts cooperate closely." [Source: The Los Angeles Times, May 29, 2002]

12. Oct. 24-26, 2000 - Pentagon officials carry out a "detailed" emergency drill based upon the crashing of a hijacked airliner into the Pentagon. [Source: The Mirror, May 24, 2002]

13. January 2001 - The Bush Administration orders the FBI and intelligence agencies to "back off" investigations involving the bin Laden family, including two of Osama bin Laden's relatives (Abdullah and Omar) who were living in Falls Church, Va. -- right next to CIA headquarters. This followed previous orders dating back to 1996 that frustrated efforts to investigate the bin Laden family. [Source: BBC Newsnight, Correspondent Gregg Palast, Nov. 7, 2001]

14. Feb. 13, 2001 - UPI terrorism correspondent Richard Sale -- while covering a trial of bin Laden's Al Qaeda followers -- reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden's encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February, it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years.

15. May 2001 - Secretary of State Colin Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban regime, purportedly to assist hungry farmers who are starving since the destruction of their opium crop in January on orders of the Taliban regime. [Source: Los Angeles Times, May 22, 2001]

16. May 2001 - Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, a career covert operative and former Navy Seal, travels to India on a publicized tour, while CIA Director George Tenet makes a quiet visit to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Armitage has long and deep Pakistani intelligence connections. It would be reasonable to assume that while in Islamabad, Tenet, in what was described as "an unusually long meeting," also met with his Pakistani counterpart, Lt. Gen. Mahmud Ahmad, head of the ISI. [Source: The Indian SAPRA news agency, May 22, 2001]

17. June 2001 - German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture." [Source: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Sept. 14, 2001; See

18. July 2001 - FBI agents in Arizona write a memorandum warning about suspicious activities involving a group of Middle Eastern men taking flight training lessons in Phoenix. The memorandum specifically mentions Osama bin Laden and warns of connections to terrorist activities. [Source: The New York Times, May 14, 2002]

19. summer 2001 - The National Security Council convenes a Dabhol working group as revealed in a series of government e-mails obtained by the Washington Post and the New York Daily News. [Source: The Albion Monitor, Feb. 28, 2002]

20. summer 2001 - According to a Sept. 26 story in Britain's The Guardian, correspondent David Leigh reported that "U.S. department of defense official, Dr. Jeffrey Starr, visited Tajikistan in January. The Guardian's Felicity Lawrence established that U.S. Rangers were also training special troops in Kyrgyzstan. There were unconfirmed reports that Tajik and Uzbek special troops were training in Alaska and Montana."

21. summer 2001 (est.) - Pakistani ISI Chief Gen. Ahmad (see above) orders an aide to wire transfer $100,000 to Mohammed Atta who was, according to the FBI, the lead terrorist in the suicide hijackings. Ahmad recently resigned after the transfer was disclosed in India and confirmed by the FBI. The individual who makes the wire transfer at Ahmad's direction is Ahmad Umar Sheik, the lead suspect in the kidnapping and murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl. [Source: The Times of India, Oct.11, 2001.]

22. summer 2001 - The online newswire online.ie reports on Sept. 14 that an Iranian man phones U.S. law enforcement to warn of an imminent attack on the WTC in the week of Sept. 9. German police confirm the calls but state that the U.S. Secret Service would not reveal any further information. [Source:
http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=1512332.

23. summer 2001 - Jordanian intelligence, the GID, makes a communications intercept deemed so important that King Abdullah's men relay it to Washington, probably through the CIA station in Amman. To make doubly sure the message got through it was passed through an Arab intermediary to a German intelligence agent. The message: A major attack was planned inside the U.S., and aircraft would be used. The code name of the operation was "The Big Wedding." "When it became clear that the information was embarrassing to Bush Administration officials and congressmen who at first denied that there had been any such warnings before Sept. 11, senior Jordanian officials backed away from their earlier confirmations." This case was authenticated by ABC reporter John K. Cooley. [Source: International Herald Tribune (IHT), May 21, 2002]

24. summer 2001 (est.) - The National Security Agency intercepts telephone conversations between bin Laden aide Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Mohammed Atta and does not share the information with any other agencies. [Source: Jonathan Landay, Knight Ridder Newspapers, June 6, 2002]

25. June 26, 2001 - The magazine indiareacts.com states that "India and Iran will 'facilitate' U.S. and Russian plans for 'limited military action' against the Taliban." The story indicates that the fighting will be done by U.S. and Russian troops with the help of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. [Source: indiareacts.com, June 26, 2001]

26. summer 2001 - Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots have been specifically training for missions involving hijacked airliners. This is reported in the Russian press and news stories are translated for FTW by a retired CIA officer. (Note: The story currently on the Izvestia web site has been edited to delete a key paragraph.) [Source: Izvestia, Sept. 12, 2001,

27. July 4-14, 2001 - Osama bin Laden receives treatment for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and meets with a CIA official, who returns to CIA headquarters on July 15. [Source: Le Figaro, Oct. 31, 2001]

28. July 15, 2001 - Members of the G8, meeting in Genoa, Italy, discuss the Taliban, pipelines, and the handing over of Osama bin Laden. According to Pakistani representative Ambassador Naiz Naik, the U.S. delegation, led by former Clinton Ambassador to Pakistan Tom Simmons warned of a "military option" if the Taliban did not change position. [Source: Jean-Charles Brisard and Guillaume Dasquie, "Bin Laden: La Verite Interdite," pp76-7. Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

29. July 2001 - Immediately after the G8 Summit three American officials -- Tom Simmons (former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan), Karl Inderfurth (former assistant secretary of state for South Asian affairs) and Lee Coldren (former State Department expert on South Asia) -- meet with Pakistani and Russian intelligence officers in Berlin and tell them that the U.S. is planning military strikes against Afghanistan in October. A French book released in November, "Bin Laden - La Verite Interdite," discloses that Taliban representatives often sat in on the meetings. British papers confirm that the Pakistani ISI relayed the threats to the Taliban. [Source: The Guardian, Sept. 22, 2001; the BBC, Sept. 18, 2001; The Inter Press Service, Nov. 16, 2001; Alexander's Gas and Oil Connections, Feb. 21, 2002]

30. July 2001 - The G8 summit at Genoa, Italy is surrounded by anti-aircraft guns, and local airspace is closed off after Italian and Egyptian officials (including President Hosni Mubarak) warn American intelligence that airliners stuffed with explosives might be used to attack President Bush. U.S. officials state that the warnings were "unsubstantiated." (But I wonder if they would have taken away the anti-aircraft artillery?) [Source: Los Angeles Times, Sept. 27, 2001]

31. July 26, 2001 - CBS News reports that John Ashcroft has stopped flying commercial airlines due a threat assessment. Ashcroft told the press that he didn't know anything about what had caused it.

32. Aug. 2, 2001 - U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Christine Rocca (a former CIA officer), meets in Islamabad with a Taliban ambassador and demands the extradition of bin Laden. This was the last known meeting on the subject. [Source: Brisard and Dasquie, p 79. Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

33. August 2001 - The FBI arrests an Islamic militant linked to bin Laden in Boston. French intelligence sources confirm that the man is a key member of bin Laden's network and the FBI learns that he has been taking flying lessons. At the time of his arrest the man is in possession of technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. [Source: Reuters, Sept. 13, 2001]

34. Aug. 11 or 12, 2001 ? U.S. Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer with U.S. naval intelligence, writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope, which he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court Records]

35. August 2001 - As reported in the IHT both a French magazine (name not given) and a Moroccan newspaper simultaneously report that a Moroccan agent named Hassan Dabou had penetrated Al Qaeda to the point of getting close to bin Laden, who was "very disappointed" that the 1993 bombing had not toppled the WTC. Dabou was called to the U.S. after reporting this, which curtailed his ability to stay in touch with the organization and gather additional intelligence that might have prevented the attacks. Though not proved beyond a doubt, these stories have been met with a wall of silence. [The IHT, May 21, 2002]

36. August 2001 - Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government "in the strongest possible terms" of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. [Source: MSNBC interview with Putin, Sept. 15, 2001]

37. August 2001 - President Bush receives classified intelligence briefings at his Crawford, Texas ranch indicating that Osama bin Laden might be planning to hijack commercial airliners. [CBS News; CNN, May 15, 2002]

38. late-August 2001 - Prince Turki, the pro-U.S. head of Saudi intelligence (also known to be close to bin Laden), is replaced by his more neutral half-brother, Prince Nawwaf who is an ally of Crown Prince Abdullah. [Source: Saudi Arabian Information Resource, Aug. 31, 2001; http://www.saudinf.com/ - Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

39. August/September 2001 - The Dow Jones Industrial Average drops nearly 900 points in the three weeks prior to the attack. A major stock market crash is imminent.

40. August/September 2001 - According to a detailed 13-page memo written by Minneapolis FBI legal officer Colleen Rowley, FBI headquarters ignores urgent, direct warnings from French intelligence services about pending attacks. In addition, a single Supervisory Special Agent (SSA) in Washington expends extra effort to thwart the field office's investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui, in one case rewriting Rowley's affidavit for a search warrant to search Moussaoui's laptop. Rowley's memo uses terms like "deliberately sabotage," "block," "integrity," "omitted," "downplayed," "glossed over," "mis-characterize," "improper political reasons, "deliberately thwarting," "deliberately further undercut," "suppressed," and "not completely honest." These are not terms describing negligent acts but rather, deliberate acts. FBI field agents desperately attempt to get action, but to no avail. One agent speculates that bin Laden might be planning to crash airliners into the WTC, while Rowley ironically noted that the SSA who had committed these deliberate actions had actually been promoted after Sept. 11. [Source: Associated Press, May 21, 2002]

41. Sept. 3-10, 2001 - MSNBC reports on Sept. 16 that a caller to a Cayman Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S. by bin Laden in the week prior to 9-11.

42. early-September 2001 - An FBI internal document, based upon field notes from Minnesota field agents discloses that the agents had been investigating and had questioned the "20th hijacker," Zacarias Moussaoui. The field notes speculate that Moussaoui, who had been taking flight lessons, might crash an airliner into the WTC. Interestingly, the field agents' requests to obtain a search warrant for his personal computer were denied. French intelligence confirms to the FBI that Moussaoui has ties to terrorist groups and may have traveled to Afghanistan. The agents also had no knowledge of the Phoenix memo (See Item #18). One news story states that agents were in "a frenzy," absolutely convinced that he was "going to do something with a plane." [Source: Newsweek, May 20, 2002 issue, story by Michael Isikoff].

43. Sept. 1-10 2001 - In an exercise, called Operation "Swift Sword" and planned for four years, 23,000 British troops are steaming toward Oman. Although the 9-11 attacks caused a hiccup in the deployment, the massive operation was implemented as planned. At the same time two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive on station in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast. Also at the same time, some 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation "Bright Star." All of these forces are in place before the first plane hits the WTC. [Sources: The Guardian; CNN; Fox; The Observer; International Law Professor Francis Boyle, the University of Illinois.]

44. September 7, 2001 - Florida Governor Jeb Bush signs a two-year emergency executive order (01-261) making new provisions for the Florida National Guard to assist law enforcement and emergency-management personnel in the event of large civil disturbances, disaster or acts of terrorism. [Source: State of Florida website listing of Governor's executive orders]

45. Sept. 6-7, 2001 - Put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) totaling 4,744 are purchased on United Air Lines stock, as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the United puts are purchased through Deutschebank/A.B. Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current executive director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism (ICT), http://www.ict.org.il/, Sept. 21, 2001 (Note:The ICT article on possible terrorist insider trading appeared eight days *after* the 9/11 attacks.); The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal; The San Francisco Chronicle, Sept. 29, 2001]

46. Sept. 10, 2001 - Put options totaling 4,516 are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options. [Source: Herzliyya Institute - above]

47. Sept. 6-11, 2001 - No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by United and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600 percent above normal. This at a time when Reuters (Sept. 10) issues a business report stating, "Airline stocks may be poised to take off."

48. Sept. 6-10, 2001 - Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25 percent of American Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the Sept. 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above; FTW, Oct. 18, 2001

49. It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad, and many other intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was reported as recently as June 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden's possession and, as a result of recent stories by Fox, both the FBI and the Justice Department have confirmed its use for U.S. intelligence gathering through at least summer 2002. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of imminent attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; Fox, Oct. 16, 2001; FTW, Oct. 26, 2001, -
50. Sept. 9, 2001 - President George W. Bush is presented with detailed war plans to overthrow Al Qaeda, according to U.S. and foreign sources speaking to NBC News. [Source: MSNBC, May 16, 2002. Thanks to Prof. Peter Dale Scott]

51. Sept. 10, 2001 - Amr Elgindy, a colleague of Iran-Contra figure Adnan Khashoggi and a notorious inside trader on the financial markets, orders his broker to liquidate his children's $300,000 trust account, fearing a sudden crash in the market. Elgindy is arrested in San Diego in May 2002, along with FBI agents Jeffrey Royer and Lynn Wingate who allegedly have been using their FBI positions to feed him inside information on various corporations. Elgindy is currently being held without bail. [Source: The Globe and Mail, May 25, 2002]

52. Sept. 10, 2001 - On Sept. 10, Newsweek has learned, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly cancelled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns. [Source: Newsweek, Sept. 24, 2001 issue, story by Evan Thomas]

53. Sept. 11, 2001 - United Air Lines flight 23, scheduled to fly from New York City to Los Angeles was delayed after four Muslim passengers began demanding that the plane take off immediately. This happened apparently after the first plane had hit the WTC. The passengers were thrown off the flight. [Source: The Globe and Mail, June 13, 2002]

54. Sept. 11, 2001 ? Gen. Mahmud of the ISI (see #16), friend of Mohammed Atta, is visiting Washington on behalf of the Taliban. He is meeting with the Chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, Rep. Porter Goss, R-Fla., and Sen. Bob Graham, D-Fla., [Source: MSNBC, Oct. 7, 2001; The New York Times, Feb. 17, 2002]

55. Sept. 11, 2001 - Employees of Odigo, Inc. in Israel, one of the world's largest instant messaging companies with offices in New York, receive threat warnings of an imminent attack on the WTC less than two hours before the first plane hits. Law enforcement authorities have gone silent about any investigation of this. The Odigo research and development offices in Israel are located in the city of Herzliyya, a ritzy suburb of Tel Aviv that is the same location as the Institute for Counter Terrorism, which eight days later reports details of insider trading on 9-11. [Source: CNN's Daniel Sieberg, Sept. 28, 2001; MSNBC Newsbytes, Brian McWilliams, Sept. 27, 2001; Ha'aretz, Sept. 26, 2001]

56. Sept. 11, 2001 - For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred. [Source: CNN; ABC; MSNBC; Los Angeles Times; The New York Times; www.tenc.net]

57. Sept. 11-12, 2001 - Nearly a month before the first reported outbreak, White House officials start taking the powerful antibiotic Cipro to treat anthrax. By the end of the year it will be known that the Ames strain of anthrax used in the attacks against Sens. Leahy and Daschle was produced by CIA programs coordinated through Fort Detrick, the Batelle Memorial Institute and the Dugway Proving Ground. [Source: NBC; CNN; www.tetrahedron.org, www.judicialwatch.org]

58. Sept. 13, 2001 - China is admitted to the World Trade Organization quickly, after years of unsuccessful attempts. [Source: The New York Times, Sept. 30, 2001]

59. Sept. 14, 2001 - Canadian jailers open the sealed envelope from Mike Vreeland in Toronto and see that is describes attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. The U.S. Navy subsequently states that Vreeland was discharged as a seaman in 1986 for unsatisfactory performance and has never worked in intelligence. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court records]

60. Sept. 15, 2001 - The New York Times reports that Mayo Shattuck III has resigned, effective immediately, as head of the Alex Brown (A.B.) unit of Deutschebank.

61. Sept. 29, 2001 - The San Francisco Chronicle reports that $2.5 million in put options on American and United airlines are unclaimed. This is likely the result of the suspension in trading on the New York Stock Exchange after the attacks, which gave the Securities and Exchange Commission time to be waiting when the owners showed up to redeem their put options.

62. Oct. 10, 2001 - The Pakistani newspaper The Frontier Post reports that U.S. Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain has paid a call on the Pakistani oil minister. A previously abandoned Unocal gas pipeline project from Turkmenistan, across Afghanistan, to Pakistan is now back on the table "in view of recent geopolitical developments."

63. Oct. 11, 2001 - The Ashcroft Justice Department takes over all terrorist prosecutions from the U.S. Attorneys office in New York, which has had a highly successful track record in prosecuting terrorist cases connected to Osama bin Laden. [Source: The New York Times, Oct. 11, 2001]

64. mid-October 2001 - The Dow Jones Industrial Average, after having suffered a precipitous drop has recovered most of its pre-attack losses. Although still weak and vulnerable to negative earnings reports, a crash has been averted by a massive infusion of government spending on defense programs, subsidies for "affected" industries and planned tax cuts for corporations.

65. Nov. 21, 2001 - The British paper The Independent runs a story headlined, "Opium Farmers Rejoice at the Defeat of the Taliban." The story reports that massive opium planting is underway all over the country.

66. Nov. 25, 2001 - The Observer runs a story headlined "Victorious Warlords Set To Open the Opium Floodgates." It states that farmers are being encouraged by warlords allied with the victorious Americans are "being encouraged to plant as much opium as possible."

67. Dec. 4, 2001 - Convicted drug lord and opium kingpin Ayub Afridi is recruited by the U.S. government to help establish control in Afghanistan by unifying various Pashtun warlords. The former opium smuggler who was one of the CIA's leading assets in the war against the Russians is released from prison in order to do this. [Source: The Asia Times Online, Dec. 4, 2001]

68. Dec. 25, 2001 - Newly appointed Afghani Prime Minister Hamid Karzai is revealed as being a former paid consultant for Unocal. [Source: Le Monde]

69. Jan. 3, 2002 - President Bush appoints Zalmy Khalilzad as a special envoy to Afghanistan. Khalilzad, a former employee of Unocal, also wrote op-eds in the Washington Post in 1997 supporting the Taliban regime. [Source: Pravda, Jan. 9, 2002]

70. Jan. 4, 2002 - Florida drug trafficking explodes after 9-11. In a surge of trafficking reminiscent of the 1980s the diversion of resources away from drug enforcement has opened the floodgates for a new surge of cocaine and heroin from South America. [The Christian Science Monitor, Jan. 4, 2002]

71. Jan. 10, 2002 - In a call from a speaker phone in open court, attorneys for Mike Vreeland call the Pentagon's switchboard operator, who confirms that Vreeland is indeed a naval lieutenant on active duty. She provides an office number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon. [Source: Attorney Rocco Galati; Toronto Superior Court records]

72. Jan. 10, 2002 - Attorney General John Ashcroft recuses himself from the Enron investigation because Enron had been a major campaign donor in his 2000 Senate race. He fails to recuse himself from involvement in two sitting federal grand juries investigating bribery and corruption charges against ExxonMobil and BP Amoco, which have massive oil interests in Central Asia. Both were major Ashcroft donors in 2000. [Source: CNN, Jan. 10, 2002; FTW, "The Elephant in the Living Room, Part I," April 4, 2002,

73. Jan. 23, 2002 - Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl is kidnapped in Pakistan. Pearl is reported dead on Feb. 21. Lead suspect Ahmad Umar Sheik, former colleague of Gen. Ahmad, is arrested on Feb. 12 and named as the lead suspect in the kidnapping and murder. Legal sources close to the Pakistani government tell FTW that Pearl was investigating the ISI. [Source: CNN.com]

74. Feb. 9, 2002 - Pakistani leader Gen. Musharraf and Afghan leader Hamid Karzai announce their agreement to "cooperate in all spheres of activity," including the proposed Central Asian pipeline. Pakistan will give $10 million to Afghanistan to help pay Afghan government workers. [Source: The Irish Times, Feb. 9, 2002]

75. Feb. 18, 2002 - The Financial Times reports that the estimated opium harvest in Afghanistan in the late-spring 2002 will reach a world record 4,500 metric tons.

76. mid-April, 2002 - World Bank chief James Wolfensohn, at the opening of the World Bank's offices in Kabul, states he has held talks about financing the Trans-Afghanistan gas pipeline. He confirms $100 million in new grants for the interim Afghani government. Wolfensohn also states that a number of companies have already expressed interest in the project. [Source: Alexander's Gas and oil Connections, citing an Agence France-Presse story]

77. May 13, 2002 - The BBC reports that Afghanistan is about to close a deal for construction of the $2 billion gas pipeline to run from Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India. The story states, "work on the project will start after an agreement is expected to be struck" at a summit scheduled for the end of the month. Unocal will build the pipeline. [Source: BBC, May 13, 2002]

78. May, 2002 - A number of sources report progress on both oil and gas pipelines. Regional sources state that Unocal will re-emerge as a pipeline contender after withdrawing from the CentGas pipeline project in 1998. Unocal denies plans to revive the gas pipeline but curiously neglects to mention whether or not it has any interest in the oil pipeline, which local sources say is moving ahead. [Source: The Dawn Group of Newspapers, May 7, May 17, May 22, 2002]

79. May 30, 2002 - Afghanistan's interim leader, Hamid Karzai, Turkmenistan's President Niyazov, and Pakistani President Musharraf meet in Islamabad to sign a memorandum of understanding on the trans-Afghanistan gas pipeline project. The three leaders will meet for more talks on the project in October. The Turkmen-Afghan-Pakistani gas pipeline accord has been published and can be viewed at the following website: http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/nts22622.htm. [Source: NewsBase, June 5, 2002]

80. May 16, 2002 ? White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer states unequivocally that while President Bush had been warned of possible hijackings, "The president did not -- not -- receive information about the use of airplanes as missiles by suicide bombers." [Source: CBS News, May 15, 2002]

81. May 19, 2002 - Former FBI Agent Tyrone Powers, now a professor at Anne Arundel Community College states on radio station KISS 98.7 that he has credible evidence suggesting that the Bush Administration did in fact allow the Sept. 11 attacks to further a hidden agenda. [Source: http://www.indymedia.org - May 20, 2002]

82. May 31, 2002 - FBI Agent Robert Wright delivers a tearful press conference at the National Press Club describing his lawsuit against the FBI for deliberately curtailing investigations that might have prevented the 9-11 attacks. He uses words like "prevented," "thwarted," "obstructed," "threatened," "intimidated," and "retaliation" to describe the actions of his superiors in blocking his attempts to shut off money flows to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. These are not words of negligence. They are words describing deliberate and malicious actions. [Source: C-SPAN website]

83. June 4, 2002 - Air Force Lt. Col. Steve Butler, who had called President Bush a joke and accused him of allowing the Sept. 11 attacks to happen, is suspended from his post at the Defense Language School in Monterey, Calif. and could face a court martial. [Source: Associated Press, June 4, 2002]

84. June 17, 2002 - Reuters reports that Butler's case has been resolved without the necessity of a court martial. (I guess so. There's enough material here to prove him right. -- MCR) [Reuters, June 17, 2002]

85. July 2, 2002 - Motions from Zacarias Moussaoui are unsealed in federal court, indicating that Moussaoui wants to testify before both a grand jury and Congress about the Sept. 11 attacks. Moussaoui claims to have information showing that the U.S. government wanted the attacks to happen. [Source: The Washington Post, July 3, 2002]

86. July 3, 2002 - The first-ever shipment of Russian oil, 200,000 metric tons, arrives in Houston. [Source: The Moscow Times, July 6, 2002].

87. July 6, 2002 - Afghan Vice President Hajji Abdul Qadir is assassinated by Afghan warlords. The New York Times reports that Qadir may have been assassinated by opium warlords upset by Qadir's efforts to reduce the rampant opium farming and processing that has taken place since the U.S. occupation. Qadir had been overseeing a Western-backed eradication program, according to the Times. However, the opium warlords of the region are same ones sponsored, protected, and in some cases released from prison by the CIA and who have been protected by President Bush's special envoy, Zalmay Khalilzad. It is reported that the raw opium is being refined near U.S. bases at Kandahar. [Sources: The New York Times, July 8, 2002; Far Eastern Economic Review, April 18, 2002]

Now, let's go back to the Oct. 31 story by Le Figaro -- the one that has Osama bin Laden meeting with a CIA officer in Dubai in July 2001.

The story says that, "Throughout his stay in the hospital, Osama Bin Laden received visits from many family members [There goes the story that he's a black sheep! --MCR] and Saudi Arabian Emirate personalities of status. During this time the local representative of the CIA was seen by many people taking the elevator and going to bin Laden's room.

"Several days later the CIA officer bragged to his friends about having visited the Saudi millionaire. From authoritative sources, this CIA agent visited CIA headquarters on July 15, the day after bin Laden's departure for Quetta.

"According to various Arab diplomatic sources and French intelligence itself, precise information was communicated to the CIA concerning terrorist attacks aimed at American interests in the world, including its own territory.

"Extremely bothered, they [American intelligence officers in a meeting with French intelligence officers] requested from their French peers exact details about the Algerian activists [connected to bin Laden through Dubai banking institutions], without explaining the exact nature of their inquiry. When asked the question, ?What do you fear in the coming days?' the Americans responded with incomprehensible silence.

"On further investigation, the FBI discovered certain plans that had been put together between the CIA and its ?Islamic friends' over the years. The meeting in Dubai is, so it would seem, consistent with 'a certain American policy.'"

Even though Le Figaro reported that it had confirmed with hospital staff that bin Laden had been there as reported, stories printed on Nov. 1 contained quotes from hospital staff that these reports were untrue. On Nov. 1, as reported by the Ananova press agency, the CIA flatly denied that any meeting between any CIA personnel and Osama bin Laden at any time.

Who do you believe?




--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/21/02 06:50 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? *DELETED* [Re: Rono]
    #832142 - 08/21/02 07:13 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by 905


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #832146 - 08/21/02 07:16 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

That's your problem then, you get all your news from one source (that's owned by big business by the way...it's not an independant newspaper) Keep your eyes closed...it's easier that way...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 28 days, 18 hours
Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #832156 - 08/21/02 07:21 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Shut the fuck up.
At least I understand your opinions. When you call me a "terrorist sympathizer", you're just proving to me, and to everyone that you have no understanding whatsoever about the things I'm trying to say.

I have a pretty good idea about your beliefs, and I can understand where they stem from. You think that the government should have no business whatsoever in people's personal lives, that abortion IS killing babies, and that it is murder, and that the terrorists are acting out of senseless hate for america, and that the only logical way to stop them is by attacking and eliminating them.

Whenever I post any of my opinions, you either don't understand them very well, and call me stupid or silly, or you just want to make me look like an idiot, so you call me stupid or silly.

Why don't you try taking the indivuals points I make, and tell me why you think they're wrong? Calling me a communist or a terrorist sympathizer just makes you look like a fool, I've never said anything that could be interpreted as having sympathy for terrorists, and I've never said anything that could be interpreted as communism. By trying to dismiss me as either of these things you show your ignorance.

Yes, I think that the terrorists blew up the WTC. Obviously. Do I think it was a good thing to do? No, it was vile, killing thousands of innocent people is always wrong. No matter the context. Do I think that there are Arab countries that have good reasons to dislike the American government? Yes, of course. If you do a little research, you'll see that the american government has been a little naughty over there. Does this mean I think that they should have blown up the WTC? Of course not, obviously it was a bad thing to do, and obviously it's not going to make the US change its foreign policy in any way. It's just going to make them do the things they don't like even more, like drop bombs on them. The US is doing the same thing though, for each person killed in Afghanistan, that's 10 more people who learn to despise the US. 15 years down the road we've got tons of young men who's only knowledge of the United States is that they're the ones that killed their family. Does this mean they should try and blow up more american buildings? No. Does this mean they will? You can bet on it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #832179 - 08/21/02 07:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

You jump to a lot of wrong conclusions.The New york times is not
my only source of information I use.I am well aware of bias in the media.

All of your information is from the fringe conspiracy group.I worked with
a bunch of conspiracy paranoids.One of them was ex air force intelligence.

I will not debate each point, I don't see anyone else willing to either. I think the only
people who will spend time on the subject are people who already beleive
what you do.This does not mean we are putting our heads in the sand.
I am sure that some of your facts are correct, but the way you tie them
together is not always correct.

You paint our government as evil geniuses that can fool and control the world,
and our population as mindless fools.I won't even go any deeper into that.
I know this isn't a usa bashing thing.

The mainstrean media view of what has happened is usually a lot more accurate
than ufo/conspiracy sites.

You sound like a religious freak trying to convert us all to the tinfoil hat club.






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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Phluck]
    #832213 - 08/21/02 08:03 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

****When you call me a "terrorist sympathizer", ****

that was me not him..

****you're just proving to me, and to everyone that you have no understanding whatsoever about the things I'm trying to say.
****

i think their are alot of people that don't understand what you're trying to say

****I have a pretty good idea about your beliefs, and I can understand where they stem from. ................. the only logical way to stop them is by attacking and eliminating them.*****

yep that's about it...did you respond to the wrong person?

****Whenever I post any of my opinions, you either don't understand them very well, and call me stupid or silly****

wow that's the pot calling the kettle black..hmmm...you silly Canadian

****Why don't you try taking the indivuals points I make, and tell me why you think they're wrong? Calling me a communist or a terrorist sympathizer just makes you look like a fool*****

if the shoe fits......you're a socialist and i have no use for people like you

****The US is doing the same thing though, for each person killed in Afghanistan, that's 10 more people who learn to despise the US*****

this is were i begin to think you're ignorant..they despise us no matter what.

****15 years down the road we've got tons of young men who's only knowledge of the United States is that they're the ones that killed their family. Does this mean they should try and blow up more american buildings? No. Does this mean they will? You can bet on it. ****

why wait 15 years? They hate us now, 15 years ago and will definitely hate us in 15 years. I couldn't care less what they feel. The U.S. will stop the bombing when the Cowardly pricks stop killing innocent people. That's the bottom line. It's not another "lets treat everyone like saints no matter how useless they are". I really do wish the killing would stop on both sides, however are you that ignorant that you think they will ever like us even if we stopped everything that we do over there? They are a jealous peple that are taught hate.





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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #832217 - 08/21/02 08:05 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

hey don't knock the tinfoil hats...they're styling!!!

there's a club?


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #832230 - 08/21/02 08:17 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

The New york times is not my only source of information I use


That's the only one you mentioned..my mistake.
In reply to:

I worked with
a bunch of conspiracy paranoids.One of them was ex air force intelligence


And you don't think that someone that was in Air Force Intelligence may know more than you?
In reply to:

I will not debate each point, I don't see anyone else willing to either


What is there to debate?...it's all fact...which is exactly my point...there isn't anything to debate.
In reply to:

You paint our government as evil geniuses that can fool and control the world, and our population as mindless fools


I wouldn't put it quite like that, but yes...you are correct in that assumption.
In reply to:

The mainstrean media view of what has happened is usually a lot more accurate than ufo/conspiracy sites


So after what I've posted with "mainstream" references is it so hard to accept you are being lied to?
In reply to:

You sound like a religious freak trying to convert us all to the tinfoil hat club.


You're right, I'm a fool for even questioning the U.S. government, it would never lie to it's citizens, or commit any wrongs. Thanks for showing me the errors of my ways....if you consider me a "freak" because I distrust the U.S. government, then hell yes..I'm the freakiest freak, that has ever freaked.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/21/02 08:24 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Phluck]
    #832242 - 08/21/02 08:22 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

****15 years down the road we've got tons of young men who's only knowledge of the United States is that they're the ones that killed their family. Does this mean they should try and blow up more american buildings? No. Does this mean they will? You can bet on it. ****

There should be lots of young men who know that they aren't speaking
German, Russian, Japanese, Iraqinese, ect. thanks to the US.

Do you think we should have ignored the attack on our country.
Should we have ignored kuwait and just let sadaam eat up his neighbors,
same with vietnam.Do you wan't to sit around and preach love while the rest of
the world is turned into a dictatorship or communism.

I suppose that we violated afghanistan's civil rights by stopping a regiem of
torture and opression.

Should we have ignored japan's attempt to seize the world during the kaos of
ww2.

We stop bullies before they take you over.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #832249 - 08/21/02 08:27 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

We stop bullies before they take you over


Ah...I see...and how is the U.S. any different than the "bullies"?


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #832255 - 08/21/02 08:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

we've got what it takes to kick their asses..that's what. Watch it Mr. 51st state or you're next


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (08/21/02 08:30 AM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #832272 - 08/21/02 08:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Mentioning one newspaper doesn't mean it is the only one.
My point about the airforce guy is that he didn't have any facts.
He was just paranoid.

You like to twist things, and read between the lines things that aren't there.
Therefore talking to you is not productive.You are free to believe what you want
thanks to the usa.

Now post about how I don't want to believe and can't defend my position.
I know you will, you are too predictable.





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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #832287 - 08/21/02 08:48 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

How have I twisted anything?...I am only responding to the information you have provided me...if you provide additional information after the fact, is it my fault for interpreting the original info wrong?

In reply to:

You are free to believe what you want
thanks to the usa.


Is that so?...I was always under the assumption that Canada was a separate country.
In reply to:

Now post about how I don't want to believe and can't defend my position


You said it..I didn't...


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #832507 - 08/21/02 10:35 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well, you've ignored dozens of other simliar attacks all over the world, you just got involved in the ones that meant you would lose money.

The terrorists say that they'll keep attacking the US as long as the US meddles with them, and the US says they'll keep attacking the terrorists as long as the terrorists attack them.

The difference between this and Germany, Japan, or Russian is that you're not fighting a government that is not allowing its citizens to make their own choices, (even though some of the governments over there are doing that), you're fighting individuals who have a strong religious belief, not just a political one.

The people of Germany were caught up in rhetoric, but they were very similar to us. They came from the same sort of culture, with similar economies.

The people of the middle east are poor, they don't know what america or americans are like, all they know is that the US is the great satan, and that the US is affiliated with the jews, who they have hated for millenia. In order to stop their hate, you have to end the jewish/muslim feud, which definately won't happen any time soon.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #832548 - 08/21/02 10:49 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

They don't despise you no matter what, they have actual reasons and grievances. They made them fairly clear too, have you taken them into consideration at all?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Phluck]
    #832639 - 08/21/02 11:10 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yes I have.
I know the us isn't a saint.We have interfered with the middle east because of oil.
But the terrorist said we must withdraw from saudi arabia, and the saudi
government is wrong to let us be there.

So these terrorists have the right to dictate the government
policies of a country that revoked their citizenship, and if we don't comply
they can blow up our buildings.

The taliban was a goverment that opressed it's people.Now they have just moved
into other third world countries.

We may pick and chose our battles, and you may not like the choices we make.
But if we remained neutral there would be a lot more ethnic cleansing, opression,
ect.

If everyone remains neutral the sadaam's of the world would run rampant.





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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #832655 - 08/21/02 11:18 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

If everyone remains neutral the sadaam's of the world would run rampant.


So would the George Bushs


--------------------
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Phluck]
    #832988 - 08/21/02 12:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Shut the fuck up.
At least I understand your opinions. When you call me a "terrorist sympathizer", you're just proving to me, and to everyone that you have no understanding whatsoever about the things I'm trying to say.



I said no such thing.

In reply to:

I have a pretty good idea about your beliefs, and I can understand where they stem from. You think that the government should have no business whatsoever in people's personal lives, that abortion IS killing babies, and that it is murder, and that the terrorists are acting out of senseless hate for america, and that the only logical way to stop them is by attacking and eliminating them.



I didn't say that either but I agree with most of it.

In reply to:

Whenever I post any of my opinions, you either don't understand them very well, and call me stupid or silly, or you just want to make me look like an idiot, so you call me stupid or silly.



I did indeed call you silly. I (IMO) find your opinions, thoughts, and beliefs, to be for the most part, ludicrous.

So... rather than me responding to "shut the fuck up" by saying the same to you, I'll just say... grow up, stop looking for conspiracy everywhere, learn that while the US government isn't perfect it's the best there is anywhere on the planet. We have more freedom to say and do as we please than most of the world lumped into one. Are we or our leaders perfect? Hell no. If we were perfect fools like Clinton wouldn't make it into any office at all. Why don't you worry more about your life and your country, and a little bit less about ours.

I stand by... you are silly.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #833030 - 08/21/02 12:40 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

That list is as worthless today as it was when you first wasted the space it takes up. Anyone can write anything they wish after the fact. When you can show me where someone said... Hey George, there will be a hijacking on Sep 11 at X o'clock on flight number such and such, that will mean something. This is too large a country to respond everytime someone says... There's a group that wants to harm the US, we don't know when or how but look out. Even a warning like... Geez guys, there's a group that wants to hijack a plane and crash it into a building, is worthless with all the flights that take place in the US.

Frankly if it wasn't this you are bitching about, it would be something else that's wrong with the US.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #833033 - 08/21/02 12:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

grow up, stop looking for conspiracy everywhere,


I'll assume you were referring to me on that point...and I don't see them everywhere. Just when it comes to 9-11.
In reply to:

This is too large a country to respond everytime someone says...


Like I said, this wasn't one person giving a warning..it was several foreign inteligence angenices trying to give a warning. Do I think they should have shut down all airports?..no..do I think they should have increased security for the week of Sept 9th? (Which was the date they were given) Hell yes...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (08/21/02 12:44 PM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Rono]
    #833048 - 08/21/02 12:44 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

If I was refering to you, I'd have replied to you.

This is why you shouldn't assume anything.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #833057 - 08/21/02 12:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I failed to see anywhere that Phluck mentioned any conspiracies...perhaps you can point them out for me.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #833468 - 08/21/02 03:08 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Well, since you clarified you were referring to me, I'd like to know where the hell I've gone on about conspiracy?

Nowhere. I've made no reference to any crazy theories, or any wacky beliefs. I haven't brought up the notion of any secret coverups, or wild hidden agendas. I don't believe we're being visited by aliens.

Of course the US government isn't perfect, but I have no idea why you think it's the best in the world. There's absolutely no basis for that statement.

The entire government is corrupt with religion, no I don't give a fuck about "one nation under God", it probably shouldn't have been put there in the first place, but it's the kind of meaningless issue that is a waste of time to even discuss. What bothers me about the US is the fact that the government is fill with fundamentalist Christians who try to impose their Christian morals, which are based on scripture and not on logic. Your media is censored to block out sex and nudity, you have politicians bashing gays, and your government has the worst drug policy out of any major nation.

There's lots of countries out there that have a higher standard of living in the UN index, many with more freedoms, and many that are more beautiful. Some of them have all three.

I worry about your country because your country drags ours, and many others around wherever it decides to go, we get your media, and we bullied by it over our own drug policy. What happens down there directly effects what happens down here.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: Phluck]
    #834080 - 08/21/02 07:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

***I worry about your country because your country drags ours, and many others around wherever it decides to go***

no your country and many others follow..that's all your country can do..maybe you should stop following



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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Rono]
    #834336 - 08/21/02 08:55 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Rono writes:

Fine, if you don't want to believe that the U.S. government had foreknowledge after the rediculous amount of evidence I've provided...

You've certainly provided a large amount of stuff, and much of it is undeniably ridiculous, but to call most of it evidence of foreknowledge is a huge stretch. Once you whittle this latest laundry list down to items that actually have anything to do with the attacks, it shrinks considerably. The few items a rational person would consider both relevant and plausible I have marked in boldface.

1), 3), 4), 5), 7), etc. How does oil investment in 1991 prove the US government knew that terrorists would fly planes into the WTC eleven years later?

2) How does the fact that a nut job in 1995 fantasizing about crashing planes into civilian targets prove that the US government KNEW that someone would actually do this seven years later? There have been dozens of nut jobs fantasizing about stealing nukes and using them.

3) How do failed negotiations with the Taliban for pipeline rights in 1997 prove that the US government knew bin Laden's lackeys would fly planes into the WTC five years later? Had bin Laden even moved to Afghanistan in 1997? Wasn't he still in the Sudan at that time?

8) So Bush met with some of bin Laden's family, who have repeated over and over again that they disowned him years ago. How does this prove the US government had prior certain knowledge of the WTC attack?

9) A disgruntled FBI employee destroys valuable intelligence data. Doesn't this make it HARDER for the intelligence community to know what's going on?

10) Some intelligence data must be kept secret, or the source will be endangered.

11) Gotta love the famous efficiency of those Italians, eh?

12) The miltary carry out all kinds of drills for all kinds of contingencies. That's what they DO in peacetime. It's called "training".

13) This is not uncommon... FBI operations may jeopardize ongoing operations of the CIA or vice versa. This happens with drug busts, too. It doesn't mean the subject isn't being investigated.

14) Not all the information need necessarily have been gathered strictly from encrypted communications between the conspirators.

15), 16), 20), 25), 29) What do these have to do with the WTC attacks?

17), 18) These warnings should not have been dismissed out of hand, if in fact they were ignored. The first valid points in the list so far.

19) And the significance of this is? What is a "Dabhol working group?"

21) So Pakistani terrorists co operate with Al Quaeda terrorists. How is this relevant to the WTC attacks and the supposed US government foreknowledge of the attacks?

22) How does his phone call differ from any of the thousands of crank calls received by intelligence agencies? Which "US law enforcement" agency was contacted? The Boise Sheriff's office?

23), 26), 36) These seem to be legitimate instances of credible forewarning. They should have been investigated properly.

24) If true, then definitely an error in judgement by the NSA

27) And did this agent have the power to arrest and extradite him from the hospital? Is it your contention that bin Laden "spilled the beans" to this agent while in hospital?

28), 32) These discussions were in regard to bin Laden's past crimes, not his planned ones. Note the Taliban refused to extradite him. They could have saved themselves a lot of grief if they had done so.

30), 31), 38), 39), 43), 44) What do these have to do with the WTC attacks?

33) A definite clue here. Should have been followed up.

34), 59), 71) Interesting. I believe at least parts of the Vreeland case are possibly true.

35) If this report is true, then it proved to be an error in judgement on the part of his handlers to recall him for debriefing at that time.

37) Interesting, if true.

40), 42) In my opinion, these are believable. A definite error in judgement by the FBI, here.

41) An anonymous call to a TALK RADIO SHOW (where crank calls are the norm) aired not even in the US, but in the Cayman Islands? Oh, please. How can the US government realistically be blamed for not catching this one?

45), 46), 47), 48), 49) Insider trading happens. There are many possible reasons for shorting a stock, particularly in a market already nervous (as pointed out in 39) and many traders jump on the bandwagon without knowing why, just to follow the "big boys" who supposedly know what they're doing. Apparently, some traders got a whiff that something bad was going to happen to those companies. This doesn't mean they knew the "something bad" would be a hijacking.

50) Al-Quaeda was already known to have been responsible for past acts of terrorism.

51) So what? I'm sure he wasn't the only investor to choose to get out of the market that day. MANY people had been saying for years that the market was overvalued and due to crash. It had already been dropping for a while. See 39)

52) If true, an odd coincidence. On the other hand, the military is famous for changing schedules at the last moment, as anyone who has ever served in the military can attest. Note the use of the word "apparently".

53) How does this show the US government had advance warning of the attacks? The incident took place AFTER the attacks.

54) And did this friend of Atta spill the beans in the meeting?

55) Less than 2 hours before the attack. Did they pass on this info to US authorities?

56) Is it standard procedure to scramble fighters whenever a hijack occurred? It didn't used to be. What would the fighters do, shoot the planes down? Now THAT would go over well with the public, wouldn't it?

57), 62), 63) How does this show the US government knew of the WTC attacks in advance?

58), 60), 64), 65), 66), 67), 68), 69), 70), 72), 73), 74), 75), 76), 77), 78), 79), 86), 87) What do any of these have to do with the attacks?

61) Probably these puts were placed by terrorists. How does this prove the US government had advance knowledge of the WTC attacks?

80) Could be true. Most likely is. No way of anyone other than Bush and his advisors knowing for sure.

81) Anyone can make statements like that. Where's the beef?

82) Sounds just like agent Rowley's complaint, even to the use of the same words. If true, an error in judgement by the FBI.

83), 84) There are certain things Lt. Colonels in the American armed forces are not allowed to do. He got away with it anyway. How do his comments show the US government had prior knowledge of the WTC attacks?

85) Felons facing serious criminal penalties will say anything in the hopes of getting a lighter sentence.

I was as objective as possible in my judgement of the 87 points you listed. I came up with 14 that have the POSSIBILITY of showing failure on the part of US intelligence-gathering agencies, and I'll bet some of the more critical posters who have followed events more closely than I have will provide ammunition for discarding some of the ones I let slide.

That's a whopping 84 per cent trash or irrelevance, and note that several of the 14 I consider to be possibly legitimate are actually variations on a theme rather than separate issues, but I won't quibble over another few percentage points.

Even at that, none of these items, or even all of them taken together, prove or even indicate that the US government engineered the attacks, or invited them, or conspired to leave terrorists alone so they could carry them out. The worst possible interpretation shows they dropped the ball; they were incompetent. Incompetence in government agencies is the norm.

pinky

*edited for typos only*


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (08/21/02 09:04 PM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Phred]
    #834348 - 08/21/02 08:58 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

that was a pretty good post...obviously your attention span is longer than mine...good work


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Phred]
    #835015 - 08/22/02 06:01 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Pinky, first of all let me thank you for taking the time to make that post. You have made several good points...but without going and rebutting each one(I'm incredibly busy today, but since you put in such an effort, the least I can do is respond) let me just try to clarify what I think the connection is between the oil companies and allowing the attacks to happen...like I said this will be brief but to the point.

The negotiations between the Taliban and the Major oil companies go sour, the Taliban will not allow the American oil companies to run the pipeline through Afghanistan. The only way this would happen would be if the Taliban was taken out of power and replaced with a U.S. friendly government...besides just oil Afghanistan is an important global strategic position as well...
The Bush family and it's close ties to Oil companies is no big secret, they are just puppets of big business in my opinion. Now fast forward to the attacks...despite the warnings, and evidence pointing to an attack, GW let's it happen...in addition to the evidence I've provided, why were no fighter jets scrambled to intercept until it was too late? There is a air base located very close to the pentagon and not one jet was scrambled form there, despite having 3 squadrons available...Anyways...minutes after the attacks, all of a sudden they know exactly who is responsible...Osama. (they had no clue the attack was coming, but they automatically know who was responsible?) So now the U.S. has the entire world behind it, and backing it so the U.S. can legally go into Afghanistan and decimate the ruling Taliban regime...then installing a U.S. freindly government (who by the way is also a former Employee of Unocal....hmmmm) Then just like that, the pipeline is going ahead as planned. Who had the most gain from allowing the attacks?...Obviously the U.S....1)U.S. economy was ready to bottom out, and war is good for the economy. 2) They get to run the pipeline, worth billions of dollars in revenue to the U.S. 3)They gain a strategic position in the middle east... wars have been started for less than just one of those 3. Anyways...food for thought. I gotta get back to work.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Rono]
    #835748 - 08/22/02 12:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Pinky, first of all let me thank you for taking the time to make that post. You have made several good points...

You're welcome. Some of the points raised in that list are, in my opinion, valid indications that the security of Al-Quaeda was less than airtight. This is not surprising; in an operation involving years of planning and preparation and consisting of as many conspirators as the WTC attacks did, some security breaches are inevitable.

What I find so bemusing is the inability of some people to accept on face value what actually happened -- a fanatical terrorist with a personal grudge against the Saudi ruling regime and their military allies (the USA) engineered a spectacular terrorist attack on US soil. What is so hard to accept about this? Why MUST there have been complicity of the US government?

"Well," they say, "It just doesn't make sense that the US intelligence agencies didn't know in advance, therefore they must have deliberately allowed the attacks to occur. There is no other conclusion that makes sense."

These are the same people who routinely trash both the FBI and the CIA as being hopeless bunglers, pointing out failed operation after failed operation ad nauseum -- Ruby Ridge, Waco, various South American ops, Castro assassination attempts, botched hostage rescues, Muammar Khaddafi assassination attempts, etc. This logical inconsistency doesn't faze them a bit. Come on guys, which is it? Either these agencies are competent or they are not.

Note that these same people were the ones clamoring for reductions in defense and intelligence budgets (which Clinton obligingly provided, basically gutting the CIA) once the Soviet Union collapsed. "Why do we need to spend so much on defense? The Cold War is over. There are no serious threats left. Cut defense and intelligence spending and give us universal health care!"

Note also that these are the same people who for months and months refused to believe that Al-Quaeda was even responsible for the attacks, in essence claiming that the US government was "framing" Osama and his merry band, or that some domestic group had somehow managed to plant demolition charges powerful enough to bring down the towers if the plane strikes alone didn't do so.

As for the whole oil "connection", that's another straw man that doesn't withstand even casual inspection. To a certain group of people, EVERYTHING is about oil. I've seen post after post in this forum claiming that the Arab-Israeli conflict, for example, is "all about oil". It isn't. It's a religious war... always has been, always will be. If you don't believe me, ask any of the individuals involved, either Israeli or Palestinian or Lebanese or Jordanian -- if you mention oil as a motive, they'll look at you like you've got bugs on your eyeballs and give you a three hour rant on perceived aggressions and transgressions of "those evil dogs" dating back three millenia. I've even seen a thread here claiming the UN peacekeeping mission in Somalia was motivated by oil (ignoring the fact that there are no known oil deposits in Somalia) and that the UN actions in the Yugoslavian mess was about oil. I don't often get sarcastic here, but allow me a moment of frustration, please -- ADJUST YOUR ALUMINUM FOIL BEANIES, GUYS!

If oil is such a huge motivating factor, why does the UN not lift the economic sanctions on Iraq? Iraq is (or was) one of the largest oil producers in the Gulf, after all. Hell, the US doesn't even NEED Gulf oil... only twelve per cent US oil consumption comes from the Gulf.

The Bush family and it's close ties to Oil companies is no big secret, they are just puppets of big business in my opinion.

So what? Virtually every politician in Texas has been connected with "the awl bidness" for decades now. It's only the largest industry in the state, after all.

Now fast forward to the attacks...despite the warnings, and evidence pointing to an attack, GW let's it happen...

This presumes he both knew the attacks were going to happen and that he chose to let them happen. Neither allegation is even close to having been proven.

in addition to the evidence I've provided...

As I pointed out already, the vast majority of what you have provided does not fit the definition of "evidence".

... why were no fighter jets scrambled to intercept until it was too late?

And what exactly would those fighters do? Blow a domestic commercial airliner out of the sky? When did it become policy to shoot down hijacked planes? Think about this for a second. If the planes had been shot down, the same crackpots who for months refused to believe that Al-Quaeda engineered the attacks would have been screeching their lungs out that Bush murdered hundreds of Americans with no proof.

Anyways...minutes after the attacks, all of a sudden they know exactly who is responsible...Osama.

I don't remember it as minutes, but pretty early on in the game, yes. Why is this hard to believe? If they had in fact been in possession of all the various indications you say they had, it wouldn't have taken a rocket scientist to realize, "Holy shit! All that stuff really WAS true!" and make the connections after the fact. Hindsight is 20-20.

So now the U.S. has the entire world behind it, and backing it so the U.S. can legally go into Afghanistan and decimate the ruling Taliban regime...then installing a U.S. freindly government...

So the motive for letting the attacks take place was to provide justification for a US invasion of Afghanistan in order to remove a rogue regime which was at the time officially recognized by exactly two nations on the entire planet and which had been condemned by every humanitarian organization in the world for years?

That has more holes in it than a hunk of Swiss cheese. Let's look at a few:

1) How did they know bin Laden wouldn't immediately boogie out to Sudan or Yemen or Libya or Pakistan? He had operated out of at least that many terrorist nations in the past, and was undoubtedly welcome in several others. He is a wealthy muslim enemy of America, remember? He can pretty much write his own ticket in a dozen sympathetic nations.

2) What would have happened if the Taliban had caved and either extradited bin Laden or allowed the US free passage to hunt him down and capture him? They were given many, MANY opportunities to do so.

3) Most of the negotiations and "background" events in this oil scenario happened long before Bush even won the nomination of the Republican party as presidential candidate, much less gained the presidency (and he almost didn't get that, as I recall). The points on that list you provided show that the WTC attacks were set in motion years back. So how can the whole thing have been engineered by a Bush/Big Oil cabal?

4) The new government of Afghanistan is being propped up by the United Nations, not the United States per se. And, anyone who has done even a bit of reading into the history of that factionalized nation will realize it will take years for a "stable" government to eventually emerge, and even then it's basically a crapshoot that the new government will allow America to do whatever it chooses. There is probably no more fiercely independent (and ungrateful) and stubborn people in the world than the Afghanis.

5) Why did the US not actually TRY to crush the Taliban? The leaders of the Northern Alliance were on the news every day for weeks wailing that the US was not giving them any support. "You're bombing the wrong places, you foolish infidel dogs!" The repeated US answer was that their mission was to try to capture Al-Quaeda operatives; that their targets were not Taliban strongholds, but Al-Quaeda strongholds, and that if the Northern Alliance didn't like it, tough titties.

6) If, as you assume, the "evil, imperialistic Bush administration" was really planning an invasion of Afganistan to gain an oil pipeline, they didn't need the excuse of a terrorist attack to "justify" it. If they really are as evil as you claim, they would have manufactured some other plausible reason. Enough countries of the world loathed the Taliban's regime to not squawk much if the US had decided to provide some military assistance to the Northern Alliance. Note that even with the US (actually UN -- everyone seems to forget this fact) task force actions going on simultaneously, it was the Northern Alliance rebels who did the vast majority of the work in retaking Afghanistan. There are some military analysts who say that even without the intervention of the task force, the rebels would have won anyway -- it just would have taken longer.

Who had the most gain from allowing the attacks?...Obviously the U.S....

Who had the most to lose? The US. Thousands dead, gigantic amounts of money gone forever, businesses headquartered in the WTC gone forever, thousands of employees of those businesses unemployed.

U.S. economy was ready to bottom out, and war is good for the economy.

This is a common myth propagated by those who have no understanding of basic economics. War is NOT good for the economy. War is BAD for the economy. Huge amounts of money are spent on things that produce no wealth (salaries of military, bombs that get exploded, planes that get shot down), and increase the standard of living by exactly zero. All that money comes from taxes, remember?

Note that the stock market today is below where it was pre- September 11, 2001.

They get to run the pipeline, worth billions of dollars in revenue to the U.S.

Even presuming they do get to build a pipeline (far from guaranteed), the revenue gained from it will be a fraction of the revenue lost from the attacks and the war effort.

They gain a strategic position in the middle east...

Small point, but Afghanistan is not the Middle East. That aside, what makes you think the Afghanis will welcome the US after overthrowing the Taliban? They certainly didn't welcome the US after they had helped the mujahadin oust the Soviets. Besides, in the minds of the Afghans, the US didn't REALLY help at all. Remember the complaints of the Northern Alliance leaders? In their minds, THEY'RE the ones who did all the work. The US was wasting their time bombing the wrong targets, as far as the Northern Alliance is concerned. The Afghanis are an incredibly proud and independent people, as anyone who has ever dealt with them will attest. Ask the Russians, or the British.

pinky


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Offlinesusej
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Rono]
    #836367 - 08/22/02 04:52 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

We're with you Rono.
Bravo to you for continuing this thread for so long, even with basicly everyone against you. It takes guts to think for yourself, with all the propaganda we're fed.
Keep it up, you're not alone!


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: susej]
    #836701 - 08/22/02 07:18 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

what?


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything weird? [Re: ]
    #837089 - 08/22/02 11:09 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

The U.S. will stop the bombing when the Cowardly pricks stop killing innocent people.




Sounds like the same thing that is perpetuating Isreal/Palestine.

In reply to:

Do you think we should have ignored the attack on our country.(Sept. 11) ... Should we have ignored japan's attempt to seize the world during the kaos of
ww2.




Well, we did allow the attack of Pearl Harbor as an excuse to get into WW2. The theory of letting the other guy do something horrible first is nothing new. (Lord Halifax personal diary, history channel, various books, et al...)



I think something should be added to that list.

This was not the first time that they tried to use a plane as a missile. In 1994 They tried to do this with a plane from northern Africa to France to fly into the Eifell Tower. In this ex. the terrorists didn't know how to fly and were tricked into landing. After this, the terrorists learned from their mistakes and took flying lessons; sans the landing lessons of course.(msnbc)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: susej]
    #837516 - 08/23/02 07:33 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Honestly, I think the conspiracy theories are pretty naive and implausible. There are perfectly rational ways of looking at this, and that doesn't mean that what the US is doing is right.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Phluck]
    #837566 - 08/23/02 08:00 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

When I worked with a few conspiracy theorists it was interesting.
One believes that the un is a big conspiracy to create a one world
order and re-distribute the wealth of the world, ect.
Oops! I let the cat out of the bag.I will dis-appear soon.

I watched a couple of other guys spend 1000's of dollars and a year or
more preparing for y2k.Buying everything from thermal underware to
water filtering devices.

Very very interesting and stupid.


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: ]
    #837651 - 08/23/02 08:36 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

we know where you live now...you will reach room temperature soon....

sighned,

The tin foil helmet club

XOXOXOXOX


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Innvertigo]
    #841955 - 08/25/02 10:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

remember our american brothers, when you travel the world, tell them you're from canada. so you dont get shot or systematically abused like america does to them.
this fact is widely shared in american universities to students travelling abroad. it is also commonly advised that they sew a canadian flag patch on their book bag.
and no, i did not just make that up.
any american who went to a good university would know I'm telling the truth. and any who travelled overseas to any third-world country would experience why.
and third worlders may be rudementarily uneducated, this does not mean however that they are also ignorant.
and they dont like being thought of as ignorant by americans who justify their global report (which is that of a communal miser with alot of muscle) as just being the paranoid fantasy of uneducated foreigners.
ha ha ha.


Edited by Mitchnast (08/25/02 11:45 AM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Innvertigo]
    #841956 - 08/25/02 10:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

double post


Edited by Mitchnast (08/25/02 10:36 AM)


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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Mitchnast]
    #842666 - 08/25/02 07:20 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

***any american who went to a good university would know I'm telling the truth***

I went to the University of Michigan and i've never heard that...Canada is just USA Jr....


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineJammer
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Innvertigo]
    #842941 - 08/25/02 09:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

OK guys... can we please lighten up a little on the America vrs Canada stuff? (this is NOT directed to any one single member), eh?

I mean, I can see a debate (for ex:) about health care.... however all too often these debates drift over into boderline flaming.

Thanks for your understanding.


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>>Jammer>>


Edited by Jammer (08/25/02 10:59 PM)


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Offlineuno
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: Mitchnast]
    #843252 - 08/26/02 02:41 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Last year, as well as this year, I told everyone I could I was canadian. The only place it didn't really work was France. I also met other american backpackers last year that did go to the length of sewing the canadian flag on their bags. I did not. I believe I had an easier time pretending to be canadian, as everyone felt bad for us having to deal with america, the american gov't, and american ignorance.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Passenger List from 9/11...notice anything wei [Re: uno]
    #843465 - 08/26/02 06:39 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I have heard of Americans using this "trick" for a long time...it just seems logical. It's no secret that the U.S. is not the most popular country in many places, whereas Canadians seem to be given alot more leeway...anyways...this is sort of off the topic, so I won't comment on this anymore, other than stating is a common practice amoung Americans travelling abroad to say that they are Canadian.


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