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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2481419 - 03/29/04 07:39 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I've heard about that Terror! book. I want to read it.

Because honestly, I sort of get the impression he knows a lot more about why people are blowing themselves up than we do.

And I think everyone here is ascribing far too Western an attitude on these suicide bombers. People who don't like the rights we have, or the things our government does, don't blow themselves up. They try to blow us up.

Look at, say, the IRA -- they blow things up, generally not themselves in the process. They are fighting for freedom from a government. Or maybe look at the fighting in Central America in the past two decades.

People who blow themselves up aren't fighting for freedom, or against a country or a government. They're fighting against evil, and that whole mindset of such a clear-cut good vs. evil world is something that you're not going to find in this country. Not even in the craziest of anti-government white power seperationist reincarnation of charles manson, I think, would you be able to find something like that in this country.

The Great Satan, I don't think is a metaphor. Remember these are religious extremists. Allah is real, Satan must be, and we are him, we are the Devil's hand on earth. Wouldn't you blow yourself the fuck up to bruise the Devil's toe? Honestly now, if you truly believed you were looking at the Devil, Satan himself, Prince of Darkness.. wouldn't you sort of start thinking maybe.. maaybe.. blowing yourself up to help everyone else goodly win over evil would be a good idea?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2481429 - 03/29/04 07:41 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

You are very mistaken about women's rights in these countries. Do yourself a favor and don't mention them. You are utterly clueless. ( Yeah, you're right, I really like 'crushingly stupid")


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Sanity check [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2481436 - 03/29/04 07:43 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Are you racist?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2481451 - 03/29/04 07:47 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You are very mistaken about women's rights in these countries. Do yourself a favor and don't mention them. You are utterly clueless. ( Yeah, you're right, I really like 'crushingly stupid")



So I didn't just watch a documentary today called "Divorce, Iranian style"? That's funny, I could've sworn we saw it today in my Middle Eastern Studies Class.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2481458 - 03/29/04 07:49 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'm gonna drop back to one of your earlier posts ( we seem to be typing at the same time and I am very slow). The fucking scumbag shit hole Muslims blew up our buildings, ships and embassies before we acted. There is almost no action on our part that I can't justify. Nobody is making these swine sell us oil except their own corrupt scumbag muslim hipocrate leaders. And when the oil is gone these dirt balls will go back to being dirt balls. Ashes to ashes.



Show me where I said they're blowing themselves up over oil(that'd be more like the reason WE'RE blowing them up).


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: trendal]
    #2481468 - 03/29/04 07:52 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Are you racist?



I doubt he'd admit it if he was, but I think he's more anti-Muslim than anti-Arab. I could be wrong, tho, since I haven't seen him badmouthing Indonesians.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Sanity check [Re: trendal]
    #2481511 - 03/29/04 08:04 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I'm gonna reply directly to Trendal's racist question. No, I don't think so. Religion is a choice. The only example I can think of in which a religion might actually be somewhat racial is Judaism, and that is because there is a disease that seems to be confined to certain Eastern European Jewish populations (Tay Sachs). Other than that I can't think of any racial element in religion. All religions are disfunctional, and the less mature the more disfunctional. Islam, currently, is more an agency for evil than Christianity, which, during the Crusades and the Inquisition was an impressive force for evil and before that Judaism collected Philistine foreskins, and the Romans were no slouches and the Greeks held their own and the Hindus are doing their best TODAY. Stupid is as stupid does. Once again, I think your religion is a choice and thus you can be held accountable for your choice. You are not born a fool.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2481523 - 03/29/04 08:08 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for the endorsement, you prick (by Prick I mean it in the most affectionate way).


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Sanity check [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2481599 - 03/29/04 08:19 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for clearing that up :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Sanity check [Re: trendal]
    #2481626 - 03/29/04 08:25 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Which? The Racism thing or the Prick thing?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Sanity check [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2481675 - 03/29/04 08:34 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Well since I didn't mention anything about any "pricks"...which do you think I'm talking about? :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2481764 - 03/29/04 08:51 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

But knowing how they want their society ruled

I was speaking of how the extremists would like their society ruled. And with the exception you pointed out that there are some rights for women (I was speaking generally), I believe the rest are accurate.

Here is the rest of the post I was quoting earlier.

Quote:

I don't believe it's the only reason they have hatred for us, but it is defintely a component.

I'm the last person you'll find agreeing with our foreign policy. There's no doubt it is deeply flawed. And it may have been a catalyst in their pursuit against us, though it would likely have occured anyway. Osama bin Laden is only a figure head of Islamic fundamentalism. He is just one of the ones who has brought is anti-American sentiment to the forefront.

In my readings those who teach fundamentalist Islam, believe even more strongly with the "either you with us or against us" philosophy.

It doesn't take much to realize the fundamentalists have reinterpreted the teachings of Islam to fit their distorted world view. Their aim to is to bring all of contemporary society under God's rule and law according to their view. To them, there is no place for coexistance. The entire world is their battlefield.

Fundamentalists teach that there are two conflicting mutually exclusvie ideas that are vying for the minds of people: the Islamic fundamentalists paradigm centered on God, and the Western view centered on man and his desires.

Given we have the freedom to live our lives (to some extent) how we choose, and many of us choose to live against their interpretation of God's wishes, how can you see it as anything other them them hating our freedom. Given the oppourtunity, they would establish a theocracy that would bring instant death to any non-believer.

American society is just the scapegoat for everything they see wrong in the world, though they see anyone who doesn't live the way they demand in nearly the same light. They've interpreted jihad to mean they are against ALL who don't embrace their way of life.





And why do you claim I was condemning a whole culture? I was specifcally speaking of the fundamentlists, though many currently in power share many of their ideals. I don't see anything in my posts that should have led you to believe otherwise. So if you would step off of your high horse, we'll continue discussing the issue.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2481827 - 03/29/04 09:05 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
But knowing how they want their society ruled

I was speaking of how the extremists would like their society ruled. And with the exception you pointed out that there are some rights for women (I was speaking generally), I believe the rest are accurate.



They aren't. Check the rest of my post.

Quote:

Here is the rest of the post I was quoting earlier.

Quote:

I don't believe it's the only reason they have hatred for us, but it is defintely a component.

I'm the last person you'll find agreeing with our foreign policy. There's no doubt it is deeply flawed. And it may have been a catalyst in their pursuit against us, though it would likely have occured anyway. Osama bin Laden is only a figure head of Islamic fundamentalism. He is just one of the ones who has brought is anti-American sentiment to the forefront.

In my readings those who teach fundamentalist Islam, believe even more strongly with the "either you with us or against us" philosophy.

It doesn't take much to realize the fundamentalists have reinterpreted the teachings of Islam to fit their distorted world view. Their aim to is to bring all of contemporary society under God's rule and law according to their view. To them, there is no place for coexistance. The entire world is their battlefield.

Fundamentalists teach that there are two conflicting mutually exclusvie ideas that are vying for the minds of people: the Islamic fundamentalists paradigm centered on God, and the Western view centered on man and his desires.

Given we have the freedom to live our lives (to some extent) how we choose, and many of us choose to live against their interpretation of God's wishes, how can you see it as anything other them them hating our freedom. Given the oppourtunity, they would establish a theocracy that would bring instant death to any non-believer.

American society is just the scapegoat for everything they see wrong in the world, though they see anyone who doesn't live the way they demand in nearly the same light. They've interpreted jihad to mean they are against ALL who don't embrace their way of life.





And why do you claim I was condemning a whole culture? I was specifcally speaking of the fundamentlists, though many currently in power share many of their ideals. I don't see anything in my posts that should have led you to believe otherwise. So if you would step off of your high horse, we'll continue discussing the issue.



What high horse? You were using culturally biased stereotypes(which have some truth, but not a whole lot) to portray the way their society was run(i.e. their culture). I was simply correcting you.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTurnpikeGates
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2483922 - 03/30/04 02:21 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Just to interject here: For the Muslim-haters- what about the fact that the United States is responsible for killing more people (soldiers and civilians) in the past 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 (your pick) years than any other country around... you might be able to argue the Soviet Union, but that's not relevant to this topic. Honestly... the U.S. foreign policy history to this day is so fucked up, how can you be so worried about Muslim extremists? Just statistically speaking, I mean. It's obviously not simply self-interest, right? Cause you guys are concerned with women's rights and human rights, of course. So since our leader is a Christian fundamentalist, and much of our country are rabid Christians, shouldnt' you be condeming all Americans here, as willing members of an international police state? I guess I just don't get why your vilifications don't apply anywhere other than the scapegoated religious group of the week...

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Anonymous

Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2484871 - 03/30/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: ]
    #2484958 - 03/30/04 07:22 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HashMaster said:
Quote:


Yes, but not an extremist in the same sense. People don't blow themselves up because we drink alcohol and look at porn. They do it because we finance their oppression.




Name the nations that you feel are "oppressed" and explain how you feel we are financing it. Lets say pre-war Iraq. Saddam oppressed his people, but instead of "financing" it, we had harsh sanctions on him. What other nations in the middle east do you feel "oppress" these Muslims that we finance? Saudi Arabia? I'll give ya that. Israel? The nation that builds houses for Muslims that arafat refuses to let them live in? hah, no.



The sanctions against Saddam had nothing to do with his oppression of his people. We were his ally when he was gassing the Kurds. The sanctions were because of his invasion of Kuwait. And where the fuck do you get off talking about Israel building houses that Arafat won't let them live in? Arafat has no power whatsoever anymore, and Israel is demolishing Palestinian homes, not to mention denying them their basic human rights. You are correct in identifying Saudi Arabia as one of them, and that's a major one. And if I'm not mistaken, we give quite a bit of aid to Pakistan as well. The US doesn't give a shit about the welfare of the people in the Middle East. It's all about who can give us the best deal.

Quote:

Quote:


The only thing most of them hate about the American way of life is when we arrogantly try to impose it on them. It's true that most of them don't want separation of church and state or unlimited freedom of expression, but that doesn't mean they're attacking us just because we have those things. They just don't want us to force those things on them.



In another post you mentioned how "they" hate us for having soldiers on Saudi soil. Please explain how our troops over there are "imposing" our will on the citizenry of Saudi Arabia. Answer? They aren't.



When we dictate to others how their government should be run(think: Afghanistan and Iraq), then we're imposing our will on them.


Quote:

The reason that these people see us as their "oppressors" is because of their leaders. The leaders are rich, living in palaces in opulence, while they control the media and make it sound like America is responsible for their plight. The thing that will solve the middle east problem is the realization that the masses must have that their own leaders, not America, is the causal factor in their being so far back.



They see us oppressors because we support their oppressive leaders.

BTW, I'm surprised to see you back here. After the recent spamming incident, I thought the Admins were going to permaban you. Oh well. Nice to see you again, TOYK.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Sanity check [Re: ]
    #2485384 - 03/30/04 09:06 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HashMaster said:
Do you think that half of the world "doesn't like us"?





Why do you think we left there and came here?

They're all assholes. :yesnod:


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2485718 - 03/30/04 10:34 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

So you watch "Divorce, Iranian style"?, and that qualifies you to call my view ill-informed? That is the "high horse" I was speaking of. But let's examine your claims point by point.

Quote:

They have some freedom of religion in that most of these societies allow Jews and Christians, as well as different Muslim sects to practice their religion freely. You probably couldn't be a Buddhist or Hindu in those countries, but they do have some leeway as far as religion goes.




As I already stated, I was speaking specifically of those who adopt extremist views of Islam.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/adi03.htm
Quote:

"And fight them until there are no more attacks against religious groups and all religious authority is God's alone" (Quran 2:193).

Given this clarity in the Quranic presentation of principles, religious fanatics have to use blatant misinterpretations to justify their causes. For example, extremists misinterpret Verse 2:193 to mean "Fight until there is no more polytheism and all submit to the religion of Allah (Islam)." Fanatics replace "kill them only in combat clashes" with "kill them wherever you find them."




http://www.goshen.edu/news/pressarchive/02-11-04-rashied-omar.html
Quote:

One reason is religious. "There is an internal and theological crisis [in Islam]," Omar said. He asserted that the religion is based on a strict monotheism, while simultaneously teaching the embrace of diversity, though he said this point "escapes extremists." He said there is a need to amplify the teaching that "as we embrace the other the more we affirm the oneness of God."





Quote:

They have a form of due process as well.




Not if the extremists impose their will.

http://www.chronicle.duke.edu/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/08/23/3d663a316a281
Quote:

Radical Islamic fundamentalists claim divine authority and ultimate truth, rejecting inquiry, seeking to impose their world-view on the rest of the world through their version of religiously sanctioned murder. Church and state are one, and due process and freedom are irrelevant. Aside from religious imagery and embrace of suicide as means of murder, their creed resembles Nazism and communism. It is as much our duty as our right to discredit and destroy the idea of radical Islamic fundamentalism. And in so doing, we must not trample our superior ideals to save them; indeed, we must hold true to principles of freedom and democracy to enable their uncorking.





If you can provide evidence to the contrary to support your claims, I'd love to see it.

Quote:

I will not say who is morally correct here, because morality describes actions, not people. It is ridiculous to condemn a whole culture based on the actions of their government. Hell, that's the sort of thing that the terrorists do.




Quote:

I refuse to dehumanize an entire region based on your stereotypical and ill-informed vision of it.





Morality is your definition of what is acceptable conduct. Of course different people have varying ideas of what is moral, but why should that have any bearing on what you deem moral other than reflection to refine your ideas. If you have decided what you believe is moral, then those who don't believe the same are wrong. Most Muslims believe we are morally wrong. It is perfectly within their right to believe this. Free will allows us to do anything we want that doesn't interfere with others rights. What we think about how someone else acts in no way interferes with their right to do so.

Do you believe it is moral to kill in the name of your religion? They do. Do you believe it is moral to limit the rights of someone based on their sex? They do.

You can hide behind saying morality describes actions, not people, so you can't say who is really correct. But people commit the actions, and are ultimately morally responsible for them.

Also your previous two statements I quoted were finally dead on in your analysis of the terrorists, as you pointed out. So in that they are willing to do that, and believe they are morally justified by their religion, do you believe them morally correct? And give an honest answer this time.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2485733 - 03/30/04 10:43 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

So you watch "Divorce, Iranian style"?, and that qualifies you to call my view ill-informed? That is the "high horse" I was speaking of. But let's examine your claims point by point.

Quote:

They have some freedom of religion in that most of these societies allow Jews and Christians, as well as different Muslim sects to practice their religion freely. You probably couldn't be a Buddhist or Hindu in those countries, but they do have some leeway as far as religion goes.




As I already stated, I was speaking specifically of those who adopt extremist views of Islam. However, it may surprise you to learn that even those considered more conservative Muslims embrace many of the ideals the extremists put forth, they just choose not to activlely participate.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/adi03.htm
Quote:

"And fight them until there are no more attacks against religious groups and all religious authority is God's alone" (Quran 2:193).

Given this clarity in the Quranic presentation of principles, religious fanatics have to use blatant misinterpretations to justify their causes. For example, extremists misinterpret Verse 2:193 to mean "Fight until there is no more polytheism and all submit to the religion of Allah (Islam)." Fanatics replace "kill them only in combat clashes" with "kill them wherever you find them."




http://www.goshen.edu/news/pressarchive/02-11-04-rashied-omar.html
Quote:

One reason is religious. "There is an internal and theological crisis [in Islam]," Omar said. He asserted that the religion is based on a strict monotheism, while simultaneously teaching the embrace of diversity, though he said this point "escapes extremists." He said there is a need to amplify the teaching that "as we embrace the other the more we affirm the oneness of God."





Quote:

They have a form of due process as well.




Not if the extremists impose their will.

http://www.chronicle.duke.edu/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/08/23/3d663a316a281
Quote:

Radical Islamic fundamentalists claim divine authority and ultimate truth, rejecting inquiry, seeking to impose their world-view on the rest of the world through their version of religiously sanctioned murder. Church and state are one, and due process and freedom are irrelevant. Aside from religious imagery and embrace of suicide as means of murder, their creed resembles Nazism and communism. It is as much our duty as our right to discredit and destroy the idea of radical Islamic fundamentalism. And in so doing, we must not trample our superior ideals to save them; indeed, we must hold true to principles of freedom and democracy to enable their uncorking.





If you can provide evidence to the contrary to support your claims, I'd love to see it.

Quote:

I will not say who is morally correct here, because morality describes actions, not people. It is ridiculous to condemn a whole culture based on the actions of their government. Hell, that's the sort of thing that the terrorists do.




Quote:

I refuse to dehumanize an entire region based on your stereotypical and ill-informed vision of it.





Morality is your definition of what is acceptable conduct. Of course different people have varying ideas of what is moral, but why should that have any bearing on what you deem moral other than reflection to refine your ideas. If you have decided what you believe is moral, then those who don't believe the same are wrong. Most Muslims believe we are morally wrong. It is perfectly within their right to believe this. Free will allows us to do anything we want that doesn't interfere with others rights. What we think about how someone else acts in no way interferes with their right to do so.

Do you believe it is moral to kill in the name of your religion? They do. Do you believe it is moral to limit the rights of someone based on their sex? They do.

You can hide behind saying morality describes actions, not people, so you can't say who is really correct. But people commit the actions, and are ultimately morally responsible for them.

Also your previous two statements I quoted were finally dead on in your analysis of the terrorists, as you pointed out. So in that they are willing to do that, and believe they are morally justified by their religion, do you believe them morally correct? And give an honest answer this time.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2485885 - 03/30/04 11:36 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

It seems I misunderstood you, and I apologize. I thought you were trying to portray the way things are in the Middle East, not the way the radicals would like it to be. One thing that caught my eye, though:

Quote:

Aside from religious imagery and embrace of suicide as means of murder, their creed resembles Nazism and communism. It is as much our duty as our right to discredit and destroy the idea of radical Islamic fundamentalism. And in so doing, we must not trample our superior ideals to save them; indeed, we must hold true to principles of freedom and democracy to enable their uncorking.



While I think that any form of religious fundamentalism is a threat to freedom(as seen in our own fundamentalist Christian president), so is any attempt to stamp it out. How can we justify doing so if we hold true to our concept of religious freedom? To do so here in America would clearly go against the Constitution, so how can we justify doing the same abroad?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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