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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2485931 - 03/30/04 11:57 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

While I think that any form of religious fundamentalism is a threat to freedom(as seen in our own fundamentalist Christian president), so is any attempt to stamp it out. How can we justify doing so if we hold true to our concept of religious freedom? To do so here in America would clearly go against the Constitution, so how can we justify doing the same abroad?




I'm was writing an answer, but seeing how I am about to pass out, I'll have to respond tommorow. Er, later today as it were.


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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2486405 - 03/31/04 06:11 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: ]
    #2486852 - 03/31/04 11:16 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Why is it that you consider the majority of Americans to be brainwashed rubes, lead by an unqualified man who is leading us into war, and you see the middle east dictators as kind, gentle, moral people that are doing everything in their power to provide a warm, loving, supportive athmosphere for their people to thrive and grow? Answer: The self-hate phenomenon.



No. Answer: You have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

How many white people "hate" what "we" have done to other races?



Quite a few, and with good reason.

Quote:

How many other races feel that same feeling of guilt?



Can't say for sure, but I'm sure there are a few. Of course, no other race has oppressed other races on quite the same scale that white Europeans have.

Quote:

How many Americans think that our defensive actions signify the imperialism of "the great satan"?



A small few. I don't, since most of our actions abroad are not defensive.

Quote:

How many muslims think that the terror attacks on 9/11 and others were immoral actions?



Quite a lot. There was a great outpouring of sympathy for America throughout the world on 9/11. Of course, then Bush had to go and prove to them that the terrorists were right about us. In fact, I'd say America has acted much more like "The Great Satan" since 9/11 than it ever did before.

Quote:

The reason that Americans, and for the example, white people, feel "bad" about ourselves is something I haven't been able to trace the cause of, but I can tell you that very few groups of beings that exist for a long time sit around seeing their own group in the worst possible light and seeing the best side of other groups don't survive long. Now, I'm not saying that what you see bad about the US of A isn't true in a manner, but it's like the old proverb of the three blind men meeting the elephant. You are so sure that America looks like a snake, that you can't see the trunk and torso.



Guilt is a good thing. It prevents us from repeating the mistakes of the past.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sanity check [Re: ]
    #2487202 - 03/31/04 01:42 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

"The reason that Americans, and for the example, white people, feel "bad" about ourselves is something I haven't been able to trace the cause of"

Huh? It's 'cause white people were in charge of all the huge imperial powers in the 19th century... we took over most of the world and grabbed a bunch of them for slaves.

Anyways, the "they hate us because they're jealous" argument is ridiculous. They don't hate us because we're jealous, I don't even think they really HATE us. They want to save us from the horror of not finding the "true" religion.

It's not that they think Americans are evil, they think America is controlled by evil forces. The more American military powers control them and fight them, the more this belief is reinforced.

Of course, their religious beliefs are ridiculous. Thinking that becoming a martyr for the good cause of spreading truth and destroying evil will send you to heaven has no basis whatsoever, it's silly superstition. No more so than believing Jesus died for your sins, however, which is something Bush believes whole heartedly.

As a born again Christian, Bush must feel the need to convert those who are "lost", so that they can be saved. Of course, living in a land where religious freedom is apparenlty valued (a complete lie, of course, what with the 10 commandments hanging in government buildings, and creationism being taught in schools) makes it a dangerous political move to talk about this freely, so naturally Bush keeps it on the down low. Deep down inside, though, Bush would love to convert all those pesky Muslims, and introduce them to the wonder that is Jesus.

Really, their goals are the same. Spread their values to the rest of the world, so they can realize that they are the one true way. Bush has more money and power on his side, but the tactics don't differ that much: blowin' the shit out of stuff.

What the radical muslims fail to realize, is that blowing up a building isn't going to scare people into listening to you. Their religious beliefs cloud their judgement: when you believe that your religion is truth, you feel that God will intervene and put faith where it belongs, as long as you can push it along by doing his bidding. Since the religion is really just a big fairy tale, it's not going to work very well. It's just going to piss a bunch of people off, and they're going to start bombing back.

Of course, what the american government has trouble with, is the idea that you can kill of the terrorists, as they make up a small minority of the muslims.

Well, they've got it partially correct, only a small minority of muslims are radicals, or terrorists. Most of them are actually like the average Christians. They don't beat their wives or want to ban music or anything silly like that. (Fun Fact: Iraq was actually one of the most progressive muslim countries, with nearly as many women going to university as men). The middle east isn't just a huge version of the town from Footloose.

Anyways, I digress. The american government wants to eliminate only the radical muslim terrorists, so they send in their special military task forces into Afghanistan and all over the place, to bomb the shit out of the terrorist areas. A few civilians are killed ("Shit happens, it's a war"), and a few terrorists are killed. However, to the Afghans, this seems a lot more like an attack on their country and people, than an attack on the terrorists alone. The idea that America is ruled by an evil force becomes a whole lot easier to swallow, and it becomes a bit easier to recruit terrorists.

Try to imagine it this way. A group of Texas rednecks decide they hate France. They fly over to Paris, and blow up the Eiffel Tower. France responds by sending its military straigh to Texas. They post an armed guard on every street corner. They bomb the countryside where it's suspected these rednecks originated, a handful of american civilians are killed in the process. How would YOU feel about France if this happened? Would you feel it was their right to march into your country and start blowing things up? Probably not. In fact, it would probably be pretty soon that a bunch more rednecks would be doing their best to get into Paris so they could take down the Arc de Triomphe.

Basically, the American government is being run by people who believe in strange fairy tales about a ghost that forgives you for doing anything wrong in your life as long as you believe in him, and they're being attacked by a group of people who believe in a strange fairy tale about a ghost that will reward you for fighting against evil. Neither side is doing anything that will be effective whatsoever in convincing each other of how ridiculous their beliefs are, since it's pretty hard to fight nonsense with nonsense. So we're fucked either way.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Sanity check [Re: ]
    #2487210 - 03/31/04 01:46 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

One more note:

"You are so sure that America looks like a snake, that you can't see the trunk and torso."

Does this not apply to how you feel about other races?

You see, it's not that I hate America, it's a nice enough place, it's just that it's not the greatest country on the planet, and it never was. It's just another country that happens to have a whole lot of cash.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2488454 - 03/31/04 08:59 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Even though I myself have used the term, I don't really think it's accurate to group those who perpetrate terrorist actions as fundamentalists. If someone actually embraces and follows their religion, how can they be anything other than fundamentalists? So, religious fundamentalism as a concept, is no threat to freedom.

The danger actually lies in those who would reinterpret religious teachings, that are widely held as peaceful and tolerant, twisting them to justify their actions and philosophies. It isn't that their fundamentalist, but extremist.

Religious freedom is a granted right in our country, but in as long as it doesn't violate natural law, I believe it an inherant right we possess.

This religious freedom allows them do as they choose as long as they don't infringe on others freedom. I would say that extremism is a threat to freedom, just as not attempting to destroy it is. If these sects have demonstrated their desire to destroy our way of life, and life itself, it is our duty to crush them. They have no desire to reach a diplomatic, peaceful resolution. They have no intention of quitting until either they die or establish their version of the rule of Islam worldwide (which interesting enough would likely cause those who still held beliefs akin to what we presently do, to adopt a similar strategy as they have).

Even if you don't consider yourself "religious", you likely agree with many of the morals they subscribe to. If you were in a position, would you give somone advice urging them to take what you see as the morally correct path? I think so seeing that you debate your positions here in a persuasive manner.

It's quite obvious these people believe they are morally superior. But if our morals adopt a position of tolerance, and theirs one of inflexiblility - Faced with the threat of annihilation, how can you tolerate intolerance? If you believe them wrong, then you must believe yourself right.

We have the right to self preservation, and how else do fight somoneone intent on imposing their will on you - when the imposition means your death?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2488505 - 03/31/04 09:20 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not saying that we should stop them from imposing their will upon us(as far I know, they haven't), but it is not the place of our government to convert them to a less extremist set of beliefs. We have no more right to impose our will on them than they do to us.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2488725 - 03/31/04 10:35 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Do you believe in the right to self defense?

Of course it isn't the place of our government to convert them to a less extreme position, that's impossible. The government's place is destroying them.

Imagine if some gang repeatedly attacked and killed members of your family, publically claimed they intend on continued attacks until EVERYONE succumbs to them or dies, and being solely responsible for them, you had NO WAY of providing foolproof protection. Are you not justified in seeking them out and eradicating them?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2488813 - 03/31/04 10:53 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Do you believe in the right to self defense?




Quote:

Of course it isn't the place of our government to convert them to a less extreme position, that's impossible. The government's place is destroying them.



That's not self-defense. That's aggression, and could even be considered genocide.

Quote:

Imagine if some gang repeatedly attacked and killed members of your family, publically claimed they intend on continued attacks until EVERYONE succumbs to them or dies, and being solely responsible for them, you had NO WAY of providing foolproof protection. Are you not justified in seeking them out and eradicating them?



No.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2488971 - 03/31/04 11:06 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I guess we're lucky you aren't in charge.

Quote:

No.




Could you be any less detailed? Please explain to me how you justify the killing of innocents.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2489044 - 03/31/04 11:26 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Imagine if some gang repeatedly attacked and killed members of your family, publically claimed they intend on continued attacks until EVERYONE succumbs to them or dies, and being solely responsible for them, you had NO WAY of providing foolproof protection. Are you not justified in seeking them out and eradicating them?




Dont you realise the so called "terrorists" are applying the very same logic?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2489089 - 03/31/04 11:36 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Well, I guess we're lucky you aren't in charge.

Quote:

No.




Could you be any less detailed? Please explain to me how you justify the killing of innocents.



I don't. That's what you're trying to justify. I want no part in it.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2489223 - 03/31/04 11:58 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I don't.




From what you've said you most certainly do. How the fuck are the people intent on killing us, who have already made succesful attempts, fucking innocent?

If you don't believe that we should go after them, then you must support a policy that would simply try and prevent them from attacking, while never actively seeking them out to disrupt their plans and cripple their efforts. To allow them continue to live so they can eventually strike again, and again, until they succesfully irradicate us. You support them blowing the shit out of us, because your so tolerant of others views.


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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2489244 - 04/01/04 12:04 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Quote:

I don't.




From what you've said you most certainly do. How the fuck are the people intent on killing us, who have already made succesful attempts, fucking innocent?



I am fully supportive of going after terrorists. However, what you are advocating is going after everyone who THINKS like the terrorists. This would be akin to killing off all environmentalists because of the the Unabomber.

Quote:

If you don't believe that we should go after them, then you must support a policy that would simply try and prevent them from attacking, while never actively seeking them out to disrupt their plans and cripple their efforts. To allow them continue to live so they can eventually strike again, and again, until they succesfully irradicate us. You support them blowing the shit out of us, because your so tolerant of others views.



Did you know that the first group Hitler went after was not the Jews, but rather the Communists? Do you agree with that strategy? Certainly the Communists must have been a threat to freedom. I don't like to compare people to Hitler, but you're really scaring me here, dude. What you are proposing sounds frighteningly similar to the Final Solution. Please learn the lessons of the 20th Century and perish the idea of any ethnic cleansing(yes, a religious group counts as an ethnicity).


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: GazzBut]
    #2489276 - 04/01/04 12:06 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Sure. I have no doubt they believe they are justified in their actions.

We're at war. They've demonstrated their intent on obtaining WMD and using it, aiming to inflict maximum casualties, with large numbers innocent life. We only target them, trying to minimalize innocent casualties. Our survival is at stake. Either we kill them or they kill us.


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Re: Sanity check [Re: silversoul7]
    #2489382 - 04/01/04 12:36 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, therein lies the problem. I believe you again misunderstood me.

I in no way claim support for the eradication of an entire ethnic group. I am speaking specifically about those who adopt an extremist line with intent to harm us. Though my idea might be broader than yours, I would condone killing or imprisonment to anyone who plans, orders, executes, provides support, or knowingly harbours those aforementioned, actions that disrupted(within reason) or involved hostility with intent to harm.
our interests. That seems like a decent definition at the moment.

I know I said earlier you might be surprised to read about how even so called peaceful Muslims who don't believe in participating in the actions the extremists pursue, but some do agree with the ideals. I suspect this may have been the cause for the misunderstanding. These people can think whatever they want as long as they aren't willing to violate others rights to achieve them.

That being said however, I don't entirely rule out the possibility of more drastic measures. If for instance they were able to succesfully launch a campaign that involved nukes, or biological/chemical weapons. If the casualties were high, and we kept sustaining repeated attacks. If it was believed that some sort of massive retaliation that could inflict massive civilian casualties against their interests, and no other options were available, I think we reserve that right.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2489399 - 04/01/04 12:42 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

We only target them, trying to minimalize innocent casualties. Our survival is at stake. Either we kill them or they kill us.




You sound like a bad hollywood movie. Do a little research and find out who has killed the most innocent civillians in the last ten years.

As for the kill or be killed mentality it is born of paranoia and demonstates a distinct lack of imagination and intelligence as far as Im concerned. Do you seriously believe if we hadnt bombed Afghanistan and Iraq we would be in more danger from terrorism?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2489423 - 04/01/04 12:49 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I in no way claim support for the eradication of an entire ethnic group. I am speaking specifically about those who adopt an extremist line with intent to harm us. Though my idea might be broader than yours, I would condone killing or imprisonment to anyone who plans, orders, executes, provides support, or knowingly harbours those aforementioned, actions that disrupted(within reason) or involved hostility with intent to harm our interests. That seems like a decent definition at the moment.



How would you define "providing support" for terrorists? As in arming them? As for harboring them, does that mean we kill their families? Also, you talk about hostility and intent to harm our "interests." This sounds suspicious. I'm against many of the US's so-called "interests" in foreign policy, and I would not appreciate being executed.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Sanity check [Re: GazzBut]
    #2502750 - 04/01/04 09:41 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

You sound typically uninformed, and unwilling to examine the entirety of the situation. You've offered no alternative, just claims of lies and wrongdoing.

Who has been responsible for the killing of the most innocent civilians over the last ten years? It would have to be result of the conflicts in Rwanda, Serbia, and the like. Iraq was also responsible for huge number. The Taliban, which is pretty close to what extremist would establish as their governement of choice, was also responsible for mass-killings. But since you were undoubtely speaking about the US vs. the terrorists, we'll examine that.

I have no doubt as a result of our campaign, that a number of innocent civilians have lost their lives. But these people purposely locate targets of military importance in civilians concentrations, and they themselves stage attacks from the very same. They assemble their forces insid the same centers in an attempt to hide. They do so with the full knowledge, and hope, that this will cause the deaths of innocents as a method garnering support for opposition to us.

We do not indiscriminately target civilians. They do.

Quote:

As for the kill or be killed mentality it is born of paranoia and demonstates a distinct lack of imagination and intelligence as far as Im concerned. Do you seriously believe if we hadnt bombed Afghanistan and Iraq we would be in more danger from terrorism?




As I have repeatedly asked for, what is your alternative?

And absolutely I believe our campaign against Afghanistan and Iraq have made us safer.

Quote:


Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, al Qaeda's purported operations chief, has told U.S. interrogators that the group had been planning attacks on the Library Tower in Los Angeles and the Sears Tower in Chicago on the heels of the September 11, 2001, terror strikes.
Those plans were aborted mainly because of the decisive U.S. response to the New York and Washington attacks, which disrupted the terrorist organization's plans so thoroughly that it could not proceed, according to transcripts of his conversations with interrogators




http://washingtontimes.com/world/20040330-120655-9785r.htm


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Sanity check [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2508374 - 04/01/04 06:52 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You've offered no alternative, just claims of lies and wrongdoing.





1) Do not invade Iraq and pretend its a war on terror as the killing of innocent muslims will surely breed more terrorists making the world a more dangerous place im sure you will agree.

2)Concentrate more on preventing attacks inside our own borders rather than carrying out attacks in other countries i.e Afghanistan, as the killing of innocent muslims will surely breed more terrorists making the world a more dangerous place im sure you will agree.

3)Realise that we will become caught in a cycle of violence just like the Palestinians and Israelis if we continue to try and solve this matter through violence. The only way violence can "win" is if one side completely erradicate by the other. Refer to points one and two to see why it is impossible to completely erradicate "terrorists"

4)Act peacefully and respectfully towards our so called enemies and try to understand their grievances towards us. Whilst in the short term acting peacefully may seem like a poor course of action especially if terrorists carry out another attack in our borders (see point 2) in the long term we will see far fewer muslims becoming terrorists as their perception of us changes based on the way we act.
I am not saying we shouldnt use small special forces teams to eliminate/capture KNOWN terrorists on an individual basis outside our borders, just that we shouldnt bomb merry hell out of entire countries killing thousands of civillians.

Quote:

Those plans were aborted mainly because of the decisive U.S. response to the New York and Washington attacks, which disrupted the terrorist organization's plans so thoroughly that it could not proceed, according to transcripts of his conversations with interrogators





Whilst I am far from convinced this is completely true, this would only serve to make us safer in the short term. See points 1 and 2.


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