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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12630984 -

Mr. Cypher said:
  How can an individual change their most basic beliefs without something drastic like neurosurgery? 


It doesn't have to be something like neurosurgery.  Many people that enter the field of psychology have mental/emotional problems.  Why do you think people become philosophers?  There is a correlation, not mental/emotional dysfunction, but a philosophical crisis.


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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12631377 -

Mr. Cypher said:
Noteworthy, philosophy literally means the love of wisdom; if philosophy does not seek wisdom or Truth then I claim it is dead.

Perhaps it was foolish of me to claim that fundamental axioms can never change.  But what prompts this change?  How can an individual change their most basic beliefs without something drastic like neurosurgery?  Assuming an unchanging, constant environment, sane people will have the fundamental axiom that gravity exists, for instance, and moral people will have the fundamental axiom that murder is emotionally repugnant.  If moral and immoral people were to debate whether murder is right they will reach an insurmountable impasse because they differ on the basis of their logic.


In order to change attachment to axioms, I think it would depend on the specific person and their specific pre and post beliefs.

Now, do you think wisdom is truth?


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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12631810 -

You'd have to first define which sense of truth you're using.  Wisdom seems more correlated with life experience.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12631918 -

Yes, you are correct.

The Correspondence Theory of Truth.


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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633236 -

Mr. Cypher said:
How can an individual change their most basic beliefs without something drastic like neurosurgery?

Why would drastic measures be required for such a thing? If an individual encounters an idea that contradicts his/her own, and s/he feels that it is more logically sound than his/her idea, then s/he might adopt that new idea--it really doesn't require much more than that IMO.



Mr. Cypher said:
Assuming an unchanging, constant environment, sane people will have the fundamental axiom that gravity exists...

Well that's a given--if gravity stopped existing, then any person, "sane" or not, would probably not hold on to the fundamental axiom that gravity exists.



Mr. Cypher said:
...and moral people will have the fundamental axiom that murder is emotionally repugnant.  If moral and immoral people were to debate whether murder is right they will reach an insurmountable impasse because they differ on the basis of their logic.

Morals are opinions, there are no correct or incorrect morals.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: Poid]
    #12633239 -

Define logically sound for me please.  What axioms are you using to determine soundness?

Also, if morals are subjective then morals are incorrect depending on whether they disagree with my subjective morals.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633445 -

Mr. Cypher said:
Define logically sound for me please.  What axioms are you using to determine soundness?

An example of a logically sound argument is 1+1=2--in this example, the axioms I'm using to determine that this argument is sound are the values that I've given to those numbers.



Mr. Cypher said:
Also, if morals are subjective then morals are incorrect depending on whether they disagree with my subjective morals.

They are "incorrect" for you, but this does not mean that they are objectively incorrect. If I like vanilla ice cream, but you think it tastes like shit, your opinion is incorrect to me, and vice-versa, but this doesn't mean that vanilla ice cream objectively tastes either good or bad because goodness and badness is subjective.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: Poid]
    #12633461 -

Not only the values you've given to those numbers but also the meaning you've assigned to the other symbols and operators you're using.  Can you prove that morality is subjective?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633518 -

Mr. Cypher said:
Can you prove that morality is subjective?


Can you prove that it isn't?


I've already explained how morality is a matter of opinion, and opinions are subjective. There are no right or wrong opinions, because opinions differ depending on peoples' (subjective) experiences--truth does not depend on peoples' subjective experiences, it is an absolute.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: Poid]
    #12633522 -

And why is morality a matter of opinion again?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633541 -

A person's morality is comprised of his/her values, no? What a person values is subjective, and a matter of opinion (e.g.- I like vanilla ice cream, but that doesn't make it an absolute good).


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: Poid]
    #12633550 -

Most people would say that if your personal opinion is that murder is right, you're wrong.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633668 -

What about the islamic extremist, its subjective.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633732 -

Mr. Cypher said:
Most people would say that if your personal opinion is that murder is right, you're wrong.

Diploid said:
Appeal To Widespread Belief (Bandwagon Argument, Peer Pressure, Appeal to Common Practice)

The claim, as evidence for an idea, that many people believe it, or used to believe it, or do it.

If the discussion is about social conventions, such as "good manners", then this is a reasonable line of argument.

However, in the 1800's there was a widespread belief that bloodletting cured sickness. All of these people were not just wrong, but horribly wrong, because in fact it made people sicker. Clearly, the popularity of an idea is no guarantee that it's right.

Similarly, a common justification for bribery is that "Everybody does it". And in the past, this was a justification for slavery.




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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: Poid]
    #12633736 -

Yeah man, murder's right and anyone who disagrees has a bad argument because morals are subjective!


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633752 -

Anyone who believes murder is objectively right has just as bad an argument as someone who believes that it's objectively wrong.

:brbjesus:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: Poid]
    #12633760 -

Why?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633778 -

Because both premises--"Murder is objectively good."/"Murder is objectively bad."--are false.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: Poid]
    #12633833 -

No need to stick on the label objective; how about "murder is wrong"?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: More reasons why philosophy is dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #12633900 -

Wrong in what/which sense/s?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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