Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

Magic-Mushrooms-Shop.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Fairy land
    #12369588 -

G.K. Chesterton pushed the idea that science makes reality to dull by trying to explain everything. Finding causes for everything that happens sucks the wonder out of reality. For Chesterton we should embrace all of the 'magical' things in life because they can put us into a state of awe whereas science takes away the artistic nature of reality and leaves us in a state of rigidity.

Personally I am sympathetic to the idea of wanting to preserve the wonder and magic of life because I feel that otherwise we become to focused on cause-effect relationships to our benefit. However, science and its focus on causes has led to many wonderful advancements in human progress. I do not think these two standpoints are mutually exclusive but we should perhaps try to strike a balance between the two.

Is there anyone that feels we should adopt only the extreme views of a wholly rigid scientific thought or the fair tale land of religion and spirituality?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: SlashOZ]
    #12369628 -

Can you point to this objective world which the laws of science ascribe to?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: appleorange]
    #12369665 -

appleorange said:
Can you point to this objective world which the laws of science ascribe to?


Huh, can you make this question more clear?

I guess a prime example would be the computer you are using. You should be able to notice that each of the computer's parts has some sort of cause-effect relationship that allows you to use the thing. For example if you rip our your hard drive you will not be able to do anything or if you remove the 'P' button on your keyboard you will not be able to use that letter anymore, etc.

If that is not what you had in mind then please reformulate your question.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: SlashOZ]
    #12369742 -

The abstract concepts of the mind cannot apprehend reality although they are an expression of it.

Duality, the subject/object polarization, is inherent in the concepts of the mind. For instance, when we speak of the 'body' we refer to an object, which in turn implies a subject. If we explore this object we discover that it is non-existent as such and is in fact only a 'sensation'.

However, a 'sensation' is still an object and further exploration reveals that it is in fact made of 'sensing' of 'mind stuff', rather than anything physical.

However, 'sensing' in turn is discovered to be made of 'knowing'. And if we explore 'knowing' we find that it is made of consciousness.

If we explore consciousness we find that it has no objective qualities. And yet it is what we most intimately know ourselves to be. It is what we refer to as 'I'.

It is precisely the idea that the body and mind and the world exist as objects in time and space, independent and seperate from consciousness that is abstract. There is no experience to support this.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: appleorange]
    #12369777 -

I think science is valuable for accomplishing "things", and the imagination is valuable for accomplishing emotions and experiences. If we can combine the power of the two, we are afforded a greater amount of control.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: appleorange]
    #12369781 -

appleorange said:
The abstract concepts of the mind cannot apprehend reality although they are an expression of it.

Duality, the subject/object polarization, is inherent in the concepts of the mind. For instance, when we speak of the 'body' we refer to an object, which in turn implies a subject. If we explore this object we discover that it is non-existent as such and is in fact only a 'sensation'.

However, a 'sensation' is still an object and further exploration reveals that it is in fact made of 'sensing' of 'mind stuff', rather than anything physical.

However, 'sensing' in turn is discovered to be made of 'knowing'. And if we explore 'knowing' we find that it is made of consciousness.

If we explore consciousness we find that it has no objective qualities. And yet it is what we most intimately know ourselves to be. It is what we refer to as 'I'.

It is precisely the idea that the body and mind and the world exist as objects in time and space, independent and seperate from consciousness that is abstract. There is no experience to support this.


Where do sensations come from? I'd posit that we get sense data from an external world.

Also, are you trying to push some sort of Berkeley idealism in this thread? If so, props.

Anyways, I think there are some limitations to such an extreme idealism of reality only being thought/consciousness. First it lessens the importance of our actions in the world. Basically, if everything is consciousness then how can you hurt anything? For example, you can kill imaginary people in your mind all day and not hurt anyone but there seems to be an important difference when you go out and kill someone in 'reality'. I think your idealism fails to emphasize this distinction between our consciousness as a result of our own fancy and our consciousness that is a result of sense data that we get from an outside world.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: SlashOZ]
    #12369806 -

Hold your arm up and ask yourself how you are able to do that.

I doubt you'll be able to come up with an answer.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: appleorange]
    #12369828 -

The real secret of magic is that the world is made of words, and that if you know the words that the world is made of you can make of it whatever you wish.
-TM


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: appleorange]
    #12369889 -

appleorange said:
Hold your arm up and ask yourself how you are able to do that.

I doubt you'll be able to come up with an answer.


Well a series of electrical impulses in my brain begin a chain reaction within my body that lead to my arm raising up. I'm sorry I can't explain in detail all of the chemistry and physics involved but I'm sure the internet can give you all of this information and more!


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12369890 -

Mr. Cypher said:
The real secret of magic is that the world is made of words, and that if you know the words that the world is made of you can make of it whatever you wish.
-TM


I like this, and I think Mckenna was being deliberately elusive in order to promote (aside from his usual playfulness) the truth of this very idea. By words, I think he meant reality is made of consciousness [and further reduced, things like perception and intention]. For instance, we are co-creating reality right now with our minds by interpreting this quote. The very fact we can interpret words suggests that it is open-ended; they move, twist, and transform, rolling off the tongue [fingers] in a million intonations, all by merely paying attention to them. And similarly, our reality is a  world of experience, itself permeable to our attention and manipulation.

I've heard him mention in several lectures the metaphor of life as a novel and us not as the protagonist, but as the writer.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: Arden]
    #12369902 -

I was just asking how you move your arm. I don't doubt there's a science to the whole thing.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: appleorange]
    #12369952 -

Quote:
I was just asking how you move your arm. I don't doubt there's a science to the whole thing.


If I may interject to elaborate, I think you are suggesting that our conscious existence precludes any observable behavior (both in a physical system and a biochemical system). Despite the elaborate theories for neural correlates of consciousness, there are still zero explanations for: where the "you" experience is located, where desire/will/intention originates from, or any coherent account of how discrete neurological systems interact to produce ideas. Thus far, there is only evidence suggesting correlation, not causation. Furthermore, because mammals have similar brain structures and observable interactions in their behavior and biochemistry, one should presume their consciousness is identical to ours... but it ain't.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: Arden]
    #12369971 -

Yes


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: deCypher]
    #12369979 -

Mr. Cypher said:
The real secret of magic is that the world is made of words, and that if you know the words that the world is made of you can make of it whatever you wish.
-TM


Like how he wished away brain cancer?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: SlashOZ]
    #12369982 -

Science holds no "extreme" views imo. It looks for what can be verified.:shrug: The human race has seen the result of believing in non existent gods. You choose.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: Icelander]
    #12370011 -

Icelander said:
Science holds no "extreme" views imo. It looks for what can be verified.:shrug: The human race has seen the result of believing in non existent gods. You choose.


I didn't intend to make science 'extreme'. However, on a continuum of idealism-science it would only be natural to place idealism on one end and science on the other thus making them the poles of the spectrum.

Science is a great tool but I think if we allow science to get ahead of itself it can lead to bad results. I'm thinking frontal lobotomies, mass injecting soldiers with penicillin while using only one needle which spread hepatitis, etc. Science is great and so is idealism but to much of either can lead to problems imo.

A mixture of the two can provide inspiration for scientific advancement. For example mixing imagination and science led to the discovery of DNA being a double-helix. Dr. Francis Crick explains his inspiration for this discovery to an LSD trip. The fact that LSD was discovered on accident makes this story by Crick even more 'magical'.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: SlashOZ]
    #12370054 -

Quote:
A mixture of the two can provide inspiration for scientific advancement. For example mixing imagination and science led to the discovery of DNA being a double-helix. Dr. Francis Crick explains his inspiration for this discovery to an LSD trip. The fact that LSD was discovered on accident makes this story by Crick even more 'magical'.


I agree that all forms of knowledge should potentially be compatible if they compliment instead of contradicting each other's logic. Speaking of DNA, the guy who discovered polymerase chain reaction (PCR) also attributes his creativity to LSD specifically.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12370059 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Mr. Cypher said:
The real secret of magic is that the world is made of words, and that if you know the words that the world is made of you can make of it whatever you wish.
-TM


Like how he wished away brain cancer?


It was his time to go, man.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: SlashOZ]
    #12371344 -

SlashOZ said:
Is there anyone that feels we should adopt only the extreme views of a wholly rigid scientific thought or the fair tale land of religion and spirituality?


How would you describe a rigid scientific thought? What would make it rigid, how would a person with such thoughts behave?

I think that imagination is an important aspect of one's psyche, and that if it's used properly, one can greatly benefit from it; all there has to be is balance between mental processes. Imagination can perfectly manifest itself in a more scientifically-inclined person, maybe even better than in a person who chooses to believe in said imagination, making no differentiation between it and reality.
Honestly I see no benefit in believing in religion and things that don't exist, but, like I already said, imagining anything, regardless of how off from reality is, while being aware that it is only the product of one's imagination can be a wonderful thing.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Fairy land [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12371355 -

While some people find the practice disheartening, it's dilemmas like this one that really let the brains ability to compartmentalize shine.

Look at Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Mr. Super Deduction. Believed in fairies till the day he died. He believed in the Cottingsly(sp?) fairies long, long after the hoxers admitted the hoax.

Science is a tool, or mode of thinking, as is wonder at the unknown. One spawned the other, though I'm not telling which. They are in no way mutually exclusive.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* DNA Language Discoveries.- VERY interesting!
( 1 2 3 all )		 gettinjiggywithit 5,489 45 09/27/04 03:27 PM
by 3eyes
* objectivity alphatrion 623 3 04/04/02 11:47 AM
by Tannis
* mathematics:human discovery or invention? *DELETED*
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 0toxic0 5,967 60 08/08/03 02:14 PM
by Diploid
* Non-defined objects do not exist Swami 861 14 06/02/05 04:48 PM
by Diploid
* objective reality does not exist
( 1 2 all )		 monoamine 6,630 34 11/01/02 08:55 AM
by Newbie2000
* A fairy tail! Gomp 734 9 06/24/05 09:57 PM
by Gomp
* Determinism & Objective/Subjective Morality TinTree 2,906 13 01/24/05 10:34 AM
by shroomydan
* A Fairy Tale the_Landotter 733 4 01/21/03 06:01 AM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,017 topic views. 1 members, 45 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 16 queries.