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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: mrDylan]
    #1750852 - 07/26/03 04:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mrDylan said:
Is your definition of a higher truth some sort of all mighty entity such as a god? If i assume correctly then: What evidence do you see that points towards a higher truth?




Paradoxes basically point out an error inside of a system. How can, for example, two completely opposite things be true? (a downfall of logic or rational thinking, which says only one could possibly be true). But yet, in some cases, two completely opposite things can both be true. Doesn't this show a flaw in thinking for that particular system or paradigm). Then, I think, paradoxes point to a higher truth: proof that the system we are in or using is NOT all-encompassing, that something bigger is at work.
Everyone is special, right? However, since special means "distinct or seperate from others of the same kind", and everyone is special, then, technically, no one is special, right? Don't take it too literally; obviously, the phrase "everyone is special" is meant to show how every individual has certain combinations of characteristics that are different than any other person. All right, this wasn't a good example, I don't think, but I still stand by what I said in the first part of the post.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineQuintessence
I am Hydrogen

Registered: 11/25/02
Posts: 791
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1750856 - 07/26/03 04:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

We did not invent math. We may have invented the little sympbols that we recognize as math. But the basic truths and principles of our universe all rely and depend on "math"


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OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750865 - 07/26/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"excluding things we don't quite understand very well yet)."

but that's my point exactly. there will ALWAYS be things we "don't quite understand yet."






I agree. But then I thought your point was that math is present, but not omnipresent?

Quote:


"There isn't an universal mathematical rule governing the fluctuation of everything, but all fluctuation is possible to explain mathematically."

I agree with that. how does it jibe with what you were saying about cause and effect?





I meant that you were only trying to get deeper and deeper into the causes of an event, looking for something that would be exempt of mathematics. You still haven't provided me with a proven example of such a thing...


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750872 - 07/26/03 04:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

I'd like to end this debate with the agreement that everything can be described in math but not everything is governed by it.

I can't give you an objective example of what you are asking. all my examples are personal, because thats all I know. yeah, I know its a cop out, but I've been down this road before in an arguement and found its pointless and never ending.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750964 - 07/26/03 05:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Contradictions #2 and #3 .

Do you mean both, or either?


it's only a contradiction if you assume that invention and discovery are mutually exclusive.
example: the concept of aerodynamics was discovered when the airplane was invented.

so I stand by my contention that mathematics is both an invention and a discovery.

see. why does it have to be one or the other? just because the question was framed that way?
it's not so simple. any answer would depend on your definitions of invention and discovery and your definition of mathematics.


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OfflineMeph
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Registered: 09/01/02
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1751125 - 07/26/03 06:43 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I'd like to end this debate with the agreement that everything can be described in math but not everything is governed by it.

I can't give you an objective example of what you are asking.  all my examples are personal, because thats all I know.  yeah, I know its a cop out, but I've been down this road before in an arguement and found its pointless and never ending. 




Pointless? Mabye. Interesting? That's for sure  :smirk:.

Our beleifs might not be compatible on this level, but this discussion was for sure worth participating. Five shrooms to DoctorJ!

We're probably both wrong anyways!  :cool:


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1751132 - 07/26/03 06:46 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:

it's only a contradiction if you assume that invention and discovery are mutually exclusive.






No, it's the way you explained it that I found contradictory. First you say it's a discovery, but then you say that nothing was discovered? It was just confusing and I felt the need to point it out so you could explain in better detail :smirk:. I get your point now, and agree with it fully.
 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1751242 - 07/26/03 07:50 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

yeah it's a bit confusing. how can it not be? mathematics is such an expansive field that it can't simply be defined as an invention or discovery. it really depends on what you're talking about. real numbers? the decimal system? binary? irrational numbers? imaginary numbers? infinity? limits? trigonometric functions? fractals??? btw, I believe fractals are a genuine Discovery, but there are other aspects of mathematics that are obvious "inventions" such as the base 10 (decimal) system.

and what I meant in my original post was that mathematics itself isn't something that we all of a sudden "discovered". it's not something pre-existing that we have stumbled upon. it's a process of discovery and invention.


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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1751250 - 07/26/03 07:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
yeah it's a bit confusing. how can it not be? mathematics is such an expansive field that it can't simply be defined as an invention or discovery. it really depends on what you're talking about. real numbers? the decimal system? binary? irrational numbers? imaginary numbers? infinity? limits? trigonometric functions? fractals??? btw, I believe fractals are a genuine Discovery, but there are other aspects of mathematics that are obvious "inventions" such as the base 10 (decimal) system.

and what I meant in my original post was that mathematics itself isn't something that we all of a sudden "discovered". it's not something pre-existing that we have stumbled upon. it's a process of discovery and invention.





Agreed.

Simply put: numbers (invention) are the language of mathematics (discovery).

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "it's not something pre-existing"... Maths existed before we discovered them and then invented a number system to work with...


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1751304 - 07/26/03 08:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

there are parts of it that are pre-existing and parts of it that we make up as we go along


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Anonymous

Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1751323 - 07/26/03 08:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

discovery, of course.


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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1752016 - 07/27/03 01:32 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Saying that mathematics is an invention is like saying that a new species of animal we find in the wild is an invention. How can you invent something that's already there?

If and when we ever come across an inteligent alien race, they will have the same fundamental concept of math as we do, they will just represent their numerical symobles in a different way. Doesn't matter where you go in the universe, 1 + 1 = 2.


--------------------

Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!


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Invisiblepsyka
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Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: djd586]
    #1752430 - 07/27/03 06:18 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Fractals are neat :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: psyka]
    #1752609 - 07/27/03 10:30 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Doesn't matter where you go in the universe, 1 + 1 = 2. "

Even in another dimension or parralel universe or inside a black hole?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1752692 - 07/27/03 11:38 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

As I said, the puzzle always ends up making sense. If a theory can be proven on paper, chances are it's going to correspond to some aspect of the "real" world, as you called it :wink:.




Yeah, that's what happened with non-euclidean geometry. But it took more than a hundred years from the invention of non-euclidean geometry until it was "proven" in the sense that it was shown that it is internally consistent if euclidean geometry is internally consistent. In other cases it didn't go so well. The first formulation of mathematical set theory was considered to be very natural and "real" until the discovery of Russell's paradox gave it the kiss of death.

Later on, Kurt G?del showed that axiomatic arithmetic can't prove it's own consistency. In order to know that it's consistent, we need to interpret the axioms as true statements about some objects (a "model"), which ultimately means that we have to take a peek at the real world.
 


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: djd586]
    #1752695 - 07/27/03 11:41 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Saying that mathematics is an invention is like saying that a new species of animal we find in the wild is an invention.




That's an interesting comparison. When the first platypus was shown to european scientists, they thought the dead animal they examined was a hoax, sewn together by some practical joker. And a hoax is a kind of invention. When they realized that it was not a hoax, I assume that they began to wonder if the category "mammal" was an invention or a discovery. I think it's both...

#Edit: The other side of the coin is that when Piltdown Man was discovered in 1912, it was assumed to be the first archaeological find of the "missing link" between humans and apes. But some 40 years after this discovery it was proven that it was a hoax: the findings have now been identified as mixed bones from modern humans and orangutans, plus some elephant, hippopotamus, and chimpanzee teeth, all deliberately planted in Piltdown in England.


Edited by Rhizoid (07/28/03 03:18 AM)


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Offlinencj
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1754295 - 07/28/03 12:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago)

i bet most of the people who say its an invention couldn't pass algebra in high school  :smirk:


--------------------
The Mars Volta is the shit.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1787276 - 08/07/03 03:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

mathematics are in my opinion a human invention used to help explain and organize our discoveries


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1787278 - 08/07/03 03:29 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

B


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinemerlink
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1787492 - 08/07/03 06:54 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

From dictionary.com:

"math?e?mat?ics:
The study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols."
    -"stud?y:
        The pursuit of knowledge, as by reading, observation, or research."

"dis?cov?er, dis?cov?ered, dis?cov?er?ing, dis?cov?ers:
To notice or learn, especially by making an effort"

"in?vent, in?vent?ed, in?vent?ing, in?vents:
To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

With those two words now being defined, this argument can be made much more articulately. 

My opinion:

*Mathematics are BOTH a discovery and an invention.. If someone was *BORN* a *GENIUS* ==> (then) it was within their mind to both *DISCOVER* logical relationships, and in doing so, ultimately *INVENT* mathematics through outputting their logical systems to the world.

EVERY invention has been discovered (from within the human mind -- a product of imagination)  :eek:

:sun:

-Merlin 


--------------------
"Once you have an experience, you experience it for the rest of your life ? as time is a man-made relativity, expiration of experience is a thought." - Merlin


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