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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1750532 - 07/26/03 01:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Mathematics (not as a language but as a concept) are not some kind of meaningless invention.

The difference between mathematics and physics is that physics can be tested real-time in laboratories and such. Mathematics aren't as concrete, but they're also everywhere around us.

For those who said "invention"... how did you get those few letters across? Using your computer. Your computer was designed using maths. Your computer works.

Numbers are inventions, that, I agree. Even our way of counting by ten is an invention. Had we only eight fingers, we'd be counting in an octagonal numerical system. But what numbers represent is real enough.

Say "1 + 1 = 3" and the whole universe will turn and give you a weird look. Such a statement defies logic. It defies the construction of a vortex-shaped galaxy millions of light years away. Did we invent logic? Did we define the way things work, or did we discover it? I don't think I need to answer.


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Edited by Meph (07/26/03 01:21 PM)


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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750538 - 07/26/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:

maybe its possible to build an organic computer, or one thats made of just shapes and light.





And I guess organic matter, light and shapes are not affected by logic and mathematics?

Shapes are mathematics.


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: buckwheat]
    #1750541 - 07/26/03 01:23 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mindcandy said:
hmm wouldnt a human discovery and a human invention be the same thing 




Hmm, no?  :smirk: :crazy: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750545 - 07/26/03 01:25 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"And I guess organic matter, light and shapes are not affected by logic and mathematics?"

please explain to me the mathematics behind human thoughts and emotions



--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1750546 - 07/26/03 01:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
I would say it's an invention

[...]

but it's not something we just made up.






Contradiction #1.

Quote:


or another way of putting it is it's a perpetual discovery.

we haven't "discovered" anything that's already there.

but we're always discovering more. ok so I guess my answer is: both.
 




Contradictions #2 and #3  :smirk:.

Do you mean both, or either?
:crazy: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750558 - 07/26/03 01:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"And I guess organic matter, light and shapes are not affected by logic and mathematics?"

please explain to me the mathematics behind human thoughts and emotions

 




I won't. Nobody can answer that question, yet.

However, synapsis (which is responsible for most cerebral activity) is caused by electrical currents which follow certain basic mathematic concepts.

Emotions are caused by certain neurotransmettors being released in precise areas of the brain. Neurotransmettors are matter. No matter is above maths and physics.

So what's your point? Are you trying to find an example of something that is not affected by maths or physics? I'm curious...  :smirk: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750570 - 07/26/03 01:37 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

The frustrating thing about mathematics is that it's so hard to tell what part is "just" theory/invention and what part is observation/discovery, because the observations can often be so conveniently made within our minds. Non-euclidean geometry is a good example: it started out as an invention, and a very abstract one, and later it was discovered that non-euclidean geometries had correspondences in things that existed in the real world. But it wasn't obvious from the start. It was the same thing when complex numbers were invented/discovered, and it was the same even with negative numbers.


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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750618 - 07/26/03 01:55 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
The frustrating thing about mathematics is that it's so hard to tell what part is "just" theory/invention and what part is observation/discovery, because the observations can often be so conveniently made within our minds.





True... but then again, most theories end up being true. Math is like a puzzle. We discover each peice at a time, but they always fit! No two proven mathematical concepts are in opposition to each other.

Quote:


Non-euclidean geometry is a good example: it started out as an invention, and a very abstract one, and later it was discovered that non-euclidean geometries had correspondences in things that existed in the real world. But it wasn't obvious from the start.





As I said, the puzzle always ends up making sense. If a theory can be proven on paper, chances are it's going to correspond to some aspect of the "real" world, as you called it :wink:.

Quote:


It was the same thing when complex numbers were invented/discovered, and it was the same even with negative numbers.
 




It's understandable though, because math uses some concepts that are totally out of our reach. Take pi for example. Pi stretches out to infinity. But what's infinity? It's not something we can swallow easily. Just like negative numbers. What's -1? We can't really picture it in our mind. One apple is okay. No apples is okay. But -1 apple?  :crazy: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750629 - 07/26/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Emotions are caused by certain neurotransmettors being released in precise areas of the brain. Neurotransmettors are matter. No matter is above maths and physics."

yes, I am a psych/neuroscience major so I know this.

it has always been my belief (cant prove it, dont need to) that the human brain is a machine, but the essence of a person is outside the brain, controlling it. (cartesian dualism)

my belief in a soul is unfounded but so is your belief that eventually we will discover a way to logically explain the universe. 

"So what's your point? Are you trying to find an example of something that is not affected by maths or physics? I'm curious... "

it is my contention that mathematics is just one methodology for viewing and measuring the universe of many and therefore cannot be all inclusive.

don't get me wrong, its great for somethings, especially utilitarian things,but when it comes to explaining human existance and predicting the course of human events, it is useless.

anyway, i didn't mean to offend you or anything, just voicing my highly illogical opinion :smile:


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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InvisiblePjS
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750657 - 07/26/03 02:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"Without our understanding of mathematics you wouldn't be on a computer now, mathematics are very much realistic and useful. "

how could you say that for sure?

maybe its possible to build an organic computer, or one thats made of just shapes and light.

math is just a human way of seeing and doing things. that doesn't make it all encompassing.






It's assembly, and binary logic circuits.


--------------------
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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750664 - 07/26/03 02:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
it has always been my belief (cant prove it, dont need to) that the human brain is a machine, but the essence of a person is outside the brain, controlling it. (cartesian dualism)





I can understand why you'd think that. Don't talk too loud though, Swami is around... :smirk:

Quote:


my belief in a soul is unfounded but so is your belief that eventually we will discover a way to logically explain the universe. 





My beleif that we will eventually discover a way to logically explain the universe is not unfounded. Nothing has been proved to defy the laws of maths / physics. Why would I make an exception for the universe, or human existence?

Quote:


it is my contention that mathematics is just one methodology for viewing and measuring the universe of many and therefore cannot be all inclusive.





Of many? What else, for example?

Quote:


don't get me wrong, its great for somethings, especially utilitarian things,but when it comes to explaining human existance and predicting the course of human events, it is useless.





Why is it useless? Why do humans have to be special and exempt of mathematics, which control everything around us? We're not the bellybutton of the universe. We're a bunch of carbon-based bipedal organic beings living on a planet far, far away.

Quote:


anyway, i didn't mean to offend you





In your dreams  :smirk:. Try again, I'm hard to offend!  :cool: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750684 - 07/26/03 02:20 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"Of many? What else, for example?"

emotion.  creativity.  divine revelation.

"Nothing has been proved to defy the laws of maths / physics."

but the laws keep changing as we delve deeper into the universe.  relativity and uncertainty changed everything.  Godel changed everything.  if laws are not constant, then they are not laws.  they are frames of reference which are always widening.

"Why do humans have to be special and exempt of mathematics, which control everything around us? "

because we are :smile:  seriously, if you know a way to predict the stock market or the outcome of a horse race, or where and when it will rain, say a hundred years from now, I'd love to hear it.

"We're a bunch of carbon-based bipedal organic beings "

what is carbon made of?  protrons and electrons.  what are protrons and electrons made of?  quakrs and anti-quarks, nuetrinos and gluons?  what are those particles made of?  I have yet to see a basic building block, so we really don't even know what medium we are working with.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750703 - 07/26/03 02:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:

emotion.  creativity.  divine revelation.





I've never seen anything measured with emotion, creativity or devine revelation. I'm not saying those things don't exist, but they don't make for a very useful measuring system :smile:.

Quote:


but the laws keep changing as we delve deeper into the universe.  relativity and uncertainty changed everything.  Godel changed everything.  if laws are not constant, then they are not laws.  they are frames of reference which are always widening.





I think I got my point across. Okay, call them laws or not, but nothing defies mathematics as we know them now.

Quote:


because we are :smile:  seriously, if you know a way to predict the stock market or the outcome of a horse race, or where and when it will rain, say a hundred years from now, I'd love to hear it.





I don't know a way to predict any of these things, but I'm confident that it's technically possible. Practically, you'd need a pretty powerful computer :smirk:. But if you took in consideration ALL of the factors in the horse race (which are mathematically measurable, such as wind currents and degradation of the tendon tissue in one of the kneecaps of horse #3), and calculated all of the possible interactions between those factors, you'd have your answer. But I understand that this is virtually impossible to acheive in a practical manner.

If you think maths have nothing to do with a horse race, or the stock market (side note: rent movie "Pi"), what does explain which horse wins, or the current status of the stock market? Emotions? Devine revelation?

Quote:


"We're a bunch of carbon-based bipedal organic beings "

what is carbon made of?  protrons and electrons.  what are protrons and electrons made of?  quakrs and anti-quarks, nuetrinos and gluons?  what are those particles made of?  I have yet to see a basic building block, so we really don't even know what medium we are working with.
 


 

Do you know anything about object programming? It uses a concept very similar to the point you just made. In object programming, an object is a group of functions that you can use at will, without knowing or understanding how it works. When I look at my watch, I see a watch. I don't know what's inside. But I know what it does: it gives the time.

We know what neutrons do. They're a part of an atom's neucleus. Now, to understand what they do (which is exactly the point of physics, explaining the behavior of the things around us), do I have to know what they're made of


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750746 - 07/26/03 03:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"what does explain which horse wins"

might have something to do with how that particular horse is feeling that day :smile:

"or the current status of the stock market?"

stock market is highly based in emotions and intuition, which I am sure you will agree are quite illogical.

"side note: rent movie "Pi"

I own it.  I think you are the one who needs to watch it again.  realize that max is only truly happy when he stops looking for the ultimate answer ansd simply enjoys life.  he understands the pleasure in not knowing what will come next.

"nothing defies mathematics as we know them now."

except how we will come to know them in the future :smile:  don't put too much stock in the "laws" of nature, as they will soon be wiped from the blackboard and replaced with new ones.

"Do you know anything about object programming"

c++ is tha bomb, but I like to examine my include files so I do understand how and why functions work the way they do.  doesn't mean I cant edit the include files to suit my purposes.

"If you think maths have nothing to do with a horse race"

didn't say they had nothing to do with it, I only said that math is only one facet of our understanding of such things.




--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750766 - 07/26/03 03:18 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"what does explain which horse wins"

might have something to do with how that particular horse is feeling that day :smile:





I told you: I beleive emotions are also possible to measure mathematically. But let's not get off topic: my point is simply that math is everywhere. In every cause, in every consequence.

Quote:


"or the current status of the stock market?"

stock market is highly based in emotions and intuition, which I am sure you will agree are quite illogical.





Illogical? Intuition is a thought; thoughts are electric currents. If you could measure the state of each bidder's brain, taking in consideration all factors, it would be measurable. I don't beleive in randomness.?/b]

Quote:


"side note: rent movie "Pi"

I own it.  I think you are the one who needs to watch it again.  realize that max is only truly happy when he stops looking for the ultimate answer ansd simply enjoys life.  he understands the pleasure in not knowing what will come next.





Mabye so; but I'm not Max. I'm not trying to figure out how EVERYTHING works. And my beleiving that everything has a mathematical aspect doesn't keep me from enjoying life!

Both of my parents are mathematicians. My father is internationally known for his writings and discoveries. Does that make him unhappy like Max? Hell no! :smile:

Quote:


"nothing defies mathematics as we know them now."

except how we will come to know them in the future :smile:  don't put too much stock in the "laws" of nature, as they will soon be wiped from the blackboard and replaced with new ones.





I'm not putting all of my faith in today's mathematics. I'm just confident that whatever we know or ignore, mathematics exist, and they're everywhere.

Quote:


"Do you know anything about object programming"

c++ is tha bomb, but I like to examine my include files so I do understand how and why functions work the way they do.  doesn't mean I cant edit the include files to suit my purposes.





C++ is not object programming... Objective-C is, for example.

Quote:


"If you think maths have nothing to do with a horse race"

didn't say they had nothing to do with it, I only said that math is only one facet of our understanding of such things.

 




Okay, but I ask again: what are they, those other facets?! 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750783 - 07/26/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"what are they, those other facets?!"

I can't really show you, you have to find them yourself.

I will say this:

I have been a creative person for some time. drawing, writing, and making music.

If I'm, for instance, writing a song: mathematics plays a role in how I compose it (I'm sure you know about math and music theory) in terms of an instrument or synthesizer or sheet music.

but the IDEA itself comes from somewhere else. the impulse to creat is not mathematical. I don't write songs like I'm doing homework or working an equation. I might arrange, compose, and transcribe it that way, but generating the origional thought is not a logical or mathematical process. It just comes to me.

same thing when I'm writing or drawing.

now you could say that my work is a product of drawing upon my unconscious mind which is influenced by a lifetime's worth of experiences, but that still does not explain how I can make something completly new out of something old, or nothing at all.

anyway, I love math, I just try not to make it God, because it isn't


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750801 - 07/26/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

" I don't beleive in randomness.?/b]"

that must be really boring.

but I understand how writing "randomizer" functions would make you believe that. true randomness is diffucult to create.

"taking in consideration all factors, it would be measurable"

but the factors are not constant. are you implying there is a mathematical rule governing the fluctuations of those variables?





--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750822 - 07/26/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"what are they, those other facets?!"

I can't really show you, you have to find them yourself.





That's an easy escape (j/k). :smirk:

Quote:


I will say this:

I have been a creative person for some time.  drawing, writing, and making music.





Same here. Do you think my beleifs stop me from being creative? :eek:

Quote:



but the IDEA itself comes from somewhere else.  the impulse to creat is not mathematical.  I don't write songs like I'm doing homework or working an equation.  I might arrange, compose, and transcribe it that way, but generating the origional thought is not a logical or mathematical process.  It just comes to me.





How would your creative ideas not be subject to basic mathematical and physical laws? There's a cause to everything, I think.
Quote:



now you could say that my work is a product of drawing upon my unconscious mind which is influenced by a lifetime's worth of experiences, but that still does not explain how I can make something completly new out of something old, or nothing at all.






Something "completly new"? You're trying to pull rabbits out of empty hats. I don't think anything is ever "new". Everything has a cause or an origin, however distant it may be. Now it would be practically impossible to find out the exact cause of an idea, but there's always at least one. Check my next post about randomness.

Quote:


anyway, I love math, I just try not to make it God, because it isn't
 


 

I'm not trying to make anything God.... I don't even beleive in God! :smirk: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineMeph
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750842 - 07/26/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
" I don't beleive in randomness."

that must be really boring.





No. I'm just not the type to fantasize when there's a more logical answer right in front of me.

Quote:


but I understand how writing "randomizer" functions would make you believe that. true randomness is diffucult to create.





It's not difficult to create. It's impossible. Is the number "0.86761567864" random? No. I just typed jibberish, but it's not random. Millions of factors are at work here, for example the inclination of the elliptic curves drawn by my fingers as I was typing.

Give me ONE proven example of randomness and I'll give up (excluding things we don't quite understand very well yet).

Quote:


"taking in consideration all factors, it would be measurable"

but the factors are not constant. are you implying there is a mathematical rule governing the fluctuations of those variables?





There isn't an universal mathematical rule governing the fluctuation of everything, but all fluctuation is possible to explain mathematically. Why wouldn't it be so?


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750851 - 07/26/03 04:06 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

"excluding things we don't quite understand very well yet)."

but that's my point exactly. there will ALWAYS be things we "don't quite understand yet."

"There isn't an universal mathematical rule governing the fluctuation of everything, but all fluctuation is possible to explain mathematically."

I agree with that. how does it jibe with what you were saying about cause and effect?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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