Home | Community | Message Board

HighDesertSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Bulk Substrate

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
Invisible0toxic0
Stranger
Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 181
mathematics:human discovery or invention? *DELETED*
    #1748639 - 07/25/03 05:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by 0toxic0

Reason for deletion: No Reason.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1748660 - 07/25/03 05:16 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I would say it's an invention since we never quite get it "right"
too many paradoxes and stuff... but it's not something we just made up. or another way of putting it is it's a perpetual discovery. we haven't "discovered" anything that's already there. but we're always discovering more. ok so I guess my answer is: both.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1748673 - 07/25/03 05:24 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

What is wrong with paradoxes? Higher truth, can I say higher truth?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1748686 - 07/25/03 05:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
What is wrong with paradoxes? Higher truth, can I say higher truth?
Peace.



You took the words right out of my mouth.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1748725 - 07/25/03 05:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

nothing wrong with paradoxes in general. it's just that they usually go away when you learn more or when you approach the problem from a different angle. we're talking about mathematical paradoxes here. not philosophical ones, which are often unresolvable and point to "higher truth". mathematical paradoxes on the other hand point to a flawed perspective.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineseemslikeasymbol
what...
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 27
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1748860 - 07/25/03 06:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

not that i'm really one to say, but, as far as i am concerned, it's an invention.


--------------------
i didnt mean that...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: seemslikeasymbol]
    #1749031 - 07/25/03 07:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Invention.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflinemrDylan
Stranger
Registered: 07/23/03
Posts: 7
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1749349 - 07/25/03 09:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Poster: fireworks_god
Subject: Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention?

What is wrong with paradoxes? Higher truth, can I say higher truth?
Peace.






Is your definition of a higher truth some sort of all mighty entity such as a god? If i assume correctly then: What evidence do you see that points towards a higher truth?



--------------------
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: mrDylan]
    #1749403 - 07/25/03 10:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

definitely invention. one of the few true inventions of the human race, and just as flawed.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisible0toxic0
Stranger
Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 181
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? *DELETED* [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1749456 - 07/25/03 10:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by 0toxic0

Reason for deletion: No Reason.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1749634 - 07/26/03 12:04 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Humans discovered mathematics and then invented different ways to apply it. It's not like before man was able to count there was no such thing as a number. Numbers were just simply reduced to "more than", less than," or "equal to" A small group of nomadic hunters that came across a herd of buffalo knew that there were more buffalo then there were hunters. Or if that same group of hunter encountered a single deer, they knew that there was more of them then there was of the deer.

Now they symbols we use to represent numbers, equations and so on are an invention... The alphabet is definatly a human invention.


--------------------

Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny Flag
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: djd586]
    #1749638 - 07/26/03 12:07 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

good post. i say invention. all lingistic systems are inherently false, including mathmatics. or rather they're not false, they're just differnt, and not equateable to 3d reality.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinepsikooz
Stranger
Registered: 07/19/03
Posts: 1,023
Loc: Los Angeles
Last seen: 11 years, 9 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #1749803 - 07/26/03 01:26 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The human created the mathematics we have grown to love.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblebuckwheat
Cynically Insane

Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: psikooz]
    #1749825 - 07/26/03 01:38 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

hmm wouldnt a human discovery and a human invention be the same thing


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 6 hours
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1750099 - 07/26/03 04:08 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

My view is that mathematical theories are human inventions, like all theories. But the objects of study are numbers, and various generalizations of numbers. The properties of numbers are discovered rather than invented.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: buckwheat]
    #1750221 - 07/26/03 06:50 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

something li------------------------
A)yeah, isnt it both?
B)?


--------------------
What?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750323 - 07/26/03 09:53 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

My view is that mathematical theories are human inventions, like all theories. But the objects of study are numbers, and various generalizations of numbers. The properties of numbers are discovered rather than invented.

I agree with this here statement by Rhizoid. Peace.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisiblePjS
Jack Of AllDongs

Registered: 12/19/99
Posts: 3,485
Loc: gototheshow dot com
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1750334 - 07/26/03 10:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Without our understanding of mathematics you wouldn't be on a computer now, mathematics are very much realistic and useful.


--------------------
**************

(Ped) Slavery leads to rebellion which leads to liquor store robberies, rap and hip-hop



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineneutralizer
Spiritual beinghaving a Humanexperience
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 635
Loc: This Planet Earth
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: PjS]
    #1750364 - 07/26/03 10:53 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I would say that it is invention, but because the applications of the mathematic theories seem to be kind of universal, and are present in so many aspects of this physical world, I have to say that it is a discovery, and we are still in the process of discovering.

Rhizoid said it better, I think.


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: neutralizer]
    #1750531 - 07/26/03 01:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Without our understanding of mathematics you wouldn't be on a computer now, mathematics are very much realistic and useful. "

how could you say that for sure?

maybe its possible to build an organic computer, or one thats made of just shapes and light.

math is just a human way of seeing and doing things. that doesn't make it all encompassing.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1750532 - 07/26/03 01:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Mathematics (not as a language but as a concept) are not some kind of meaningless invention.

The difference between mathematics and physics is that physics can be tested real-time in laboratories and such. Mathematics aren't as concrete, but they're also everywhere around us.

For those who said "invention"... how did you get those few letters across? Using your computer. Your computer was designed using maths. Your computer works.

Numbers are inventions, that, I agree. Even our way of counting by ten is an invention. Had we only eight fingers, we'd be counting in an octagonal numerical system. But what numbers represent is real enough.

Say "1 + 1 = 3" and the whole universe will turn and give you a weird look. Such a statement defies logic. It defies the construction of a vortex-shaped galaxy millions of light years away. Did we invent logic? Did we define the way things work, or did we discover it? I don't think I need to answer.


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Edited by Meph (07/26/03 01:21 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750538 - 07/26/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:

maybe its possible to build an organic computer, or one thats made of just shapes and light.





And I guess organic matter, light and shapes are not affected by logic and mathematics?

Shapes are mathematics.


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: buckwheat]
    #1750541 - 07/26/03 01:23 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mindcandy said:
hmm wouldnt a human discovery and a human invention be the same thing 




Hmm, no?  :smirk: :crazy: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750545 - 07/26/03 01:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"And I guess organic matter, light and shapes are not affected by logic and mathematics?"

please explain to me the mathematics behind human thoughts and emotions



--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1750546 - 07/26/03 01:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
I would say it's an invention

[...]

but it's not something we just made up.






Contradiction #1.

Quote:


or another way of putting it is it's a perpetual discovery.

we haven't "discovered" anything that's already there.

but we're always discovering more. ok so I guess my answer is: both.
 




Contradictions #2 and #3  :smirk:.

Do you mean both, or either?
:crazy: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750558 - 07/26/03 01:32 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"And I guess organic matter, light and shapes are not affected by logic and mathematics?"

please explain to me the mathematics behind human thoughts and emotions

 




I won't. Nobody can answer that question, yet.

However, synapsis (which is responsible for most cerebral activity) is caused by electrical currents which follow certain basic mathematic concepts.

Emotions are caused by certain neurotransmettors being released in precise areas of the brain. Neurotransmettors are matter. No matter is above maths and physics.

So what's your point? Are you trying to find an example of something that is not affected by maths or physics? I'm curious...  :smirk: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 6 hours
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750570 - 07/26/03 01:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

The frustrating thing about mathematics is that it's so hard to tell what part is "just" theory/invention and what part is observation/discovery, because the observations can often be so conveniently made within our minds. Non-euclidean geometry is a good example: it started out as an invention, and a very abstract one, and later it was discovered that non-euclidean geometries had correspondences in things that existed in the real world. But it wasn't obvious from the start. It was the same thing when complex numbers were invented/discovered, and it was the same even with negative numbers.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750618 - 07/26/03 01:55 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
The frustrating thing about mathematics is that it's so hard to tell what part is "just" theory/invention and what part is observation/discovery, because the observations can often be so conveniently made within our minds.





True... but then again, most theories end up being true. Math is like a puzzle. We discover each peice at a time, but they always fit! No two proven mathematical concepts are in opposition to each other.

Quote:


Non-euclidean geometry is a good example: it started out as an invention, and a very abstract one, and later it was discovered that non-euclidean geometries had correspondences in things that existed in the real world. But it wasn't obvious from the start.





As I said, the puzzle always ends up making sense. If a theory can be proven on paper, chances are it's going to correspond to some aspect of the "real" world, as you called it :wink:.

Quote:


It was the same thing when complex numbers were invented/discovered, and it was the same even with negative numbers.
 




It's understandable though, because math uses some concepts that are totally out of our reach. Take pi for example. Pi stretches out to infinity. But what's infinity? It's not something we can swallow easily. Just like negative numbers. What's -1? We can't really picture it in our mind. One apple is okay. No apples is okay. But -1 apple?  :crazy: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1750629 - 07/26/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Emotions are caused by certain neurotransmettors being released in precise areas of the brain. Neurotransmettors are matter. No matter is above maths and physics."

yes, I am a psych/neuroscience major so I know this.

it has always been my belief (cant prove it, dont need to) that the human brain is a machine, but the essence of a person is outside the brain, controlling it. (cartesian dualism)

my belief in a soul is unfounded but so is your belief that eventually we will discover a way to logically explain the universe. 

"So what's your point? Are you trying to find an example of something that is not affected by maths or physics? I'm curious... "

it is my contention that mathematics is just one methodology for viewing and measuring the universe of many and therefore cannot be all inclusive.

don't get me wrong, its great for somethings, especially utilitarian things,but when it comes to explaining human existance and predicting the course of human events, it is useless.

anyway, i didn't mean to offend you or anything, just voicing my highly illogical opinion :smile:


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisiblePjS
Jack Of AllDongs

Registered: 12/19/99
Posts: 3,485
Loc: gototheshow dot com
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750657 - 07/26/03 02:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"Without our understanding of mathematics you wouldn't be on a computer now, mathematics are very much realistic and useful. "

how could you say that for sure?

maybe its possible to build an organic computer, or one thats made of just shapes and light.

math is just a human way of seeing and doing things. that doesn't make it all encompassing.






It's assembly, and binary logic circuits.


--------------------
**************

(Ped) Slavery leads to rebellion which leads to liquor store robberies, rap and hip-hop



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750664 - 07/26/03 02:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
it has always been my belief (cant prove it, dont need to) that the human brain is a machine, but the essence of a person is outside the brain, controlling it. (cartesian dualism)





I can understand why you'd think that. Don't talk too loud though, Swami is around... :smirk:

Quote:


my belief in a soul is unfounded but so is your belief that eventually we will discover a way to logically explain the universe. 





My beleif that we will eventually discover a way to logically explain the universe is not unfounded. Nothing has been proved to defy the laws of maths / physics. Why would I make an exception for the universe, or human existence?

Quote:


it is my contention that mathematics is just one methodology for viewing and measuring the universe of many and therefore cannot be all inclusive.





Of many? What else, for example?

Quote:


don't get me wrong, its great for somethings, especially utilitarian things,but when it comes to explaining human existance and predicting the course of human events, it is useless.





Why is it useless? Why do humans have to be special and exempt of mathematics, which control everything around us? We're not the bellybutton of the universe. We're a bunch of carbon-based bipedal organic beings living on a planet far, far away.

Quote:


anyway, i didn't mean to offend you





In your dreams  :smirk:. Try again, I'm hard to offend!  :cool: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750684 - 07/26/03 02:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Of many? What else, for example?"

emotion.  creativity.  divine revelation.

"Nothing has been proved to defy the laws of maths / physics."

but the laws keep changing as we delve deeper into the universe.  relativity and uncertainty changed everything.  Godel changed everything.  if laws are not constant, then they are not laws.  they are frames of reference which are always widening.

"Why do humans have to be special and exempt of mathematics, which control everything around us? "

because we are :smile:  seriously, if you know a way to predict the stock market or the outcome of a horse race, or where and when it will rain, say a hundred years from now, I'd love to hear it.

"We're a bunch of carbon-based bipedal organic beings "

what is carbon made of?  protrons and electrons.  what are protrons and electrons made of?  quakrs and anti-quarks, nuetrinos and gluons?  what are those particles made of?  I have yet to see a basic building block, so we really don't even know what medium we are working with.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750703 - 07/26/03 02:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:

emotion.  creativity.  divine revelation.





I've never seen anything measured with emotion, creativity or devine revelation. I'm not saying those things don't exist, but they don't make for a very useful measuring system :smile:.

Quote:


but the laws keep changing as we delve deeper into the universe.  relativity and uncertainty changed everything.  Godel changed everything.  if laws are not constant, then they are not laws.  they are frames of reference which are always widening.





I think I got my point across. Okay, call them laws or not, but nothing defies mathematics as we know them now.

Quote:


because we are :smile:  seriously, if you know a way to predict the stock market or the outcome of a horse race, or where and when it will rain, say a hundred years from now, I'd love to hear it.





I don't know a way to predict any of these things, but I'm confident that it's technically possible. Practically, you'd need a pretty powerful computer :smirk:. But if you took in consideration ALL of the factors in the horse race (which are mathematically measurable, such as wind currents and degradation of the tendon tissue in one of the kneecaps of horse #3), and calculated all of the possible interactions between those factors, you'd have your answer. But I understand that this is virtually impossible to acheive in a practical manner.

If you think maths have nothing to do with a horse race, or the stock market (side note: rent movie "Pi"), what does explain which horse wins, or the current status of the stock market? Emotions? Devine revelation?

Quote:


"We're a bunch of carbon-based bipedal organic beings "

what is carbon made of?  protrons and electrons.  what are protrons and electrons made of?  quakrs and anti-quarks, nuetrinos and gluons?  what are those particles made of?  I have yet to see a basic building block, so we really don't even know what medium we are working with.
 


 

Do you know anything about object programming? It uses a concept very similar to the point you just made. In object programming, an object is a group of functions that you can use at will, without knowing or understanding how it works. When I look at my watch, I see a watch. I don't know what's inside. But I know what it does: it gives the time.

We know what neutrons do. They're a part of an atom's neucleus. Now, to understand what they do (which is exactly the point of physics, explaining the behavior of the things around us), do I have to know what they're made of


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750746 - 07/26/03 03:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"what does explain which horse wins"

might have something to do with how that particular horse is feeling that day :smile:

"or the current status of the stock market?"

stock market is highly based in emotions and intuition, which I am sure you will agree are quite illogical.

"side note: rent movie "Pi"

I own it.  I think you are the one who needs to watch it again.  realize that max is only truly happy when he stops looking for the ultimate answer ansd simply enjoys life.  he understands the pleasure in not knowing what will come next.

"nothing defies mathematics as we know them now."

except how we will come to know them in the future :smile:  don't put too much stock in the "laws" of nature, as they will soon be wiped from the blackboard and replaced with new ones.

"Do you know anything about object programming"

c++ is tha bomb, but I like to examine my include files so I do understand how and why functions work the way they do.  doesn't mean I cant edit the include files to suit my purposes.

"If you think maths have nothing to do with a horse race"

didn't say they had nothing to do with it, I only said that math is only one facet of our understanding of such things.




--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750766 - 07/26/03 03:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"what does explain which horse wins"

might have something to do with how that particular horse is feeling that day :smile:





I told you: I beleive emotions are also possible to measure mathematically. But let's not get off topic: my point is simply that math is everywhere. In every cause, in every consequence.

Quote:


"or the current status of the stock market?"

stock market is highly based in emotions and intuition, which I am sure you will agree are quite illogical.





Illogical? Intuition is a thought; thoughts are electric currents. If you could measure the state of each bidder's brain, taking in consideration all factors, it would be measurable. I don't beleive in randomness.?/b]

Quote:


"side note: rent movie "Pi"

I own it.  I think you are the one who needs to watch it again.  realize that max is only truly happy when he stops looking for the ultimate answer ansd simply enjoys life.  he understands the pleasure in not knowing what will come next.





Mabye so; but I'm not Max. I'm not trying to figure out how EVERYTHING works. And my beleiving that everything has a mathematical aspect doesn't keep me from enjoying life!

Both of my parents are mathematicians. My father is internationally known for his writings and discoveries. Does that make him unhappy like Max? Hell no! :smile:

Quote:


"nothing defies mathematics as we know them now."

except how we will come to know them in the future :smile:  don't put too much stock in the "laws" of nature, as they will soon be wiped from the blackboard and replaced with new ones.





I'm not putting all of my faith in today's mathematics. I'm just confident that whatever we know or ignore, mathematics exist, and they're everywhere.

Quote:


"Do you know anything about object programming"

c++ is tha bomb, but I like to examine my include files so I do understand how and why functions work the way they do.  doesn't mean I cant edit the include files to suit my purposes.





C++ is not object programming... Objective-C is, for example.

Quote:


"If you think maths have nothing to do with a horse race"

didn't say they had nothing to do with it, I only said that math is only one facet of our understanding of such things.

 




Okay, but I ask again: what are they, those other facets?! 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750783 - 07/26/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"what are they, those other facets?!"

I can't really show you, you have to find them yourself.

I will say this:

I have been a creative person for some time. drawing, writing, and making music.

If I'm, for instance, writing a song: mathematics plays a role in how I compose it (I'm sure you know about math and music theory) in terms of an instrument or synthesizer or sheet music.

but the IDEA itself comes from somewhere else. the impulse to creat is not mathematical. I don't write songs like I'm doing homework or working an equation. I might arrange, compose, and transcribe it that way, but generating the origional thought is not a logical or mathematical process. It just comes to me.

same thing when I'm writing or drawing.

now you could say that my work is a product of drawing upon my unconscious mind which is influenced by a lifetime's worth of experiences, but that still does not explain how I can make something completly new out of something old, or nothing at all.

anyway, I love math, I just try not to make it God, because it isn't


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750801 - 07/26/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

" I don't beleive in randomness.?/b]"

that must be really boring.

but I understand how writing "randomizer" functions would make you believe that. true randomness is diffucult to create.

"taking in consideration all factors, it would be measurable"

but the factors are not constant. are you implying there is a mathematical rule governing the fluctuations of those variables?





--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750822 - 07/26/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"what are they, those other facets?!"

I can't really show you, you have to find them yourself.





That's an easy escape (j/k). :smirk:

Quote:


I will say this:

I have been a creative person for some time.  drawing, writing, and making music.





Same here. Do you think my beleifs stop me from being creative? :eek:

Quote:



but the IDEA itself comes from somewhere else.  the impulse to creat is not mathematical.  I don't write songs like I'm doing homework or working an equation.  I might arrange, compose, and transcribe it that way, but generating the origional thought is not a logical or mathematical process.  It just comes to me.





How would your creative ideas not be subject to basic mathematical and physical laws? There's a cause to everything, I think.
Quote:



now you could say that my work is a product of drawing upon my unconscious mind which is influenced by a lifetime's worth of experiences, but that still does not explain how I can make something completly new out of something old, or nothing at all.






Something "completly new"? You're trying to pull rabbits out of empty hats. I don't think anything is ever "new". Everything has a cause or an origin, however distant it may be. Now it would be practically impossible to find out the exact cause of an idea, but there's always at least one. Check my next post about randomness.

Quote:


anyway, I love math, I just try not to make it God, because it isn't
 


 

I'm not trying to make anything God.... I don't even beleive in God! :smirk: 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750842 - 07/26/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
" I don't beleive in randomness."

that must be really boring.





No. I'm just not the type to fantasize when there's a more logical answer right in front of me.

Quote:


but I understand how writing "randomizer" functions would make you believe that. true randomness is diffucult to create.





It's not difficult to create. It's impossible. Is the number "0.86761567864" random? No. I just typed jibberish, but it's not random. Millions of factors are at work here, for example the inclination of the elliptic curves drawn by my fingers as I was typing.

Give me ONE proven example of randomness and I'll give up (excluding things we don't quite understand very well yet).

Quote:


"taking in consideration all factors, it would be measurable"

but the factors are not constant. are you implying there is a mathematical rule governing the fluctuations of those variables?





There isn't an universal mathematical rule governing the fluctuation of everything, but all fluctuation is possible to explain mathematically. Why wouldn't it be so?


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750851 - 07/26/03 04:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"excluding things we don't quite understand very well yet)."

but that's my point exactly. there will ALWAYS be things we "don't quite understand yet."

"There isn't an universal mathematical rule governing the fluctuation of everything, but all fluctuation is possible to explain mathematically."

I agree with that. how does it jibe with what you were saying about cause and effect?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: mrDylan]
    #1750852 - 07/26/03 04:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mrDylan said:
Is your definition of a higher truth some sort of all mighty entity such as a god? If i assume correctly then: What evidence do you see that points towards a higher truth?




Paradoxes basically point out an error inside of a system. How can, for example, two completely opposite things be true? (a downfall of logic or rational thinking, which says only one could possibly be true). But yet, in some cases, two completely opposite things can both be true. Doesn't this show a flaw in thinking for that particular system or paradigm). Then, I think, paradoxes point to a higher truth: proof that the system we are in or using is NOT all-encompassing, that something bigger is at work.
Everyone is special, right? However, since special means "distinct or seperate from others of the same kind", and everyone is special, then, technically, no one is special, right? Don't take it too literally; obviously, the phrase "everyone is special" is meant to show how every individual has certain combinations of characteristics that are different than any other person. All right, this wasn't a good example, I don't think, but I still stand by what I said in the first part of the post.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineQuintessence
I am Hydrogen

Registered: 11/25/02
Posts: 791
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1750856 - 07/26/03 04:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

We did not invent math. We may have invented the little sympbols that we recognize as math. But the basic truths and principles of our universe all rely and depend on "math"


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1750865 - 07/26/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
"excluding things we don't quite understand very well yet)."

but that's my point exactly. there will ALWAYS be things we "don't quite understand yet."






I agree. But then I thought your point was that math is present, but not omnipresent?

Quote:


"There isn't an universal mathematical rule governing the fluctuation of everything, but all fluctuation is possible to explain mathematically."

I agree with that. how does it jibe with what you were saying about cause and effect?





I meant that you were only trying to get deeper and deeper into the causes of an event, looking for something that would be exempt of mathematics. You still haven't provided me with a proven example of such a thing...


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750872 - 07/26/03 04:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'd like to end this debate with the agreement that everything can be described in math but not everything is governed by it.

I can't give you an objective example of what you are asking. all my examples are personal, because thats all I know. yeah, I know its a cop out, but I've been down this road before in an arguement and found its pointless and never ending.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1750964 - 07/26/03 05:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Contradictions #2 and #3 .

Do you mean both, or either?


it's only a contradiction if you assume that invention and discovery are mutually exclusive.
example: the concept of aerodynamics was discovered when the airplane was invented.

so I stand by my contention that mathematics is both an invention and a discovery.

see. why does it have to be one or the other? just because the question was framed that way?
it's not so simple. any answer would depend on your definitions of invention and discovery and your definition of mathematics.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1751125 - 07/26/03 06:43 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I'd like to end this debate with the agreement that everything can be described in math but not everything is governed by it.

I can't give you an objective example of what you are asking.  all my examples are personal, because thats all I know.  yeah, I know its a cop out, but I've been down this road before in an arguement and found its pointless and never ending. 




Pointless? Mabye. Interesting? That's for sure  :smirk:.

Our beleifs might not be compatible on this level, but this discussion was for sure worth participating. Five shrooms to DoctorJ!

We're probably both wrong anyways!  :cool:


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1751132 - 07/26/03 06:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:

it's only a contradiction if you assume that invention and discovery are mutually exclusive.






No, it's the way you explained it that I found contradictory. First you say it's a discovery, but then you say that nothing was discovered? It was just confusing and I felt the need to point it out so you could explain in better detail :smirk:. I get your point now, and agree with it fully.
 


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1751242 - 07/26/03 07:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

yeah it's a bit confusing. how can it not be? mathematics is such an expansive field that it can't simply be defined as an invention or discovery. it really depends on what you're talking about. real numbers? the decimal system? binary? irrational numbers? imaginary numbers? infinity? limits? trigonometric functions? fractals??? btw, I believe fractals are a genuine Discovery, but there are other aspects of mathematics that are obvious "inventions" such as the base 10 (decimal) system.

and what I meant in my original post was that mathematics itself isn't something that we all of a sudden "discovered". it's not something pre-existing that we have stumbled upon. it's a process of discovery and invention.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMeph
Synesthesiac

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 1,568
Loc: Qu?bec
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1751250 - 07/26/03 07:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
yeah it's a bit confusing. how can it not be? mathematics is such an expansive field that it can't simply be defined as an invention or discovery. it really depends on what you're talking about. real numbers? the decimal system? binary? irrational numbers? imaginary numbers? infinity? limits? trigonometric functions? fractals??? btw, I believe fractals are a genuine Discovery, but there are other aspects of mathematics that are obvious "inventions" such as the base 10 (decimal) system.

and what I meant in my original post was that mathematics itself isn't something that we all of a sudden "discovered". it's not something pre-existing that we have stumbled upon. it's a process of discovery and invention.





Agreed.

Simply put: numbers (invention) are the language of mathematics (discovery).

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "it's not something pre-existing"... Maths existed before we discovered them and then invented a number system to work with...


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1751304 - 07/26/03 08:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

there are parts of it that are pre-existing and parts of it that we make up as we go along


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1751323 - 07/26/03 08:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

discovery, of course.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1752016 - 07/27/03 01:32 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Saying that mathematics is an invention is like saying that a new species of animal we find in the wild is an invention. How can you invent something that's already there?

If and when we ever come across an inteligent alien race, they will have the same fundamental concept of math as we do, they will just represent their numerical symobles in a different way. Doesn't matter where you go in the universe, 1 + 1 = 2.


--------------------

Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: djd586]
    #1752430 - 07/27/03 06:18 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Fractals are neat :smile:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: psyka]
    #1752609 - 07/27/03 10:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Doesn't matter where you go in the universe, 1 + 1 = 2. "

Even in another dimension or parralel universe or inside a black hole?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 6 hours
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Meph]
    #1752692 - 07/27/03 11:38 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

As I said, the puzzle always ends up making sense. If a theory can be proven on paper, chances are it's going to correspond to some aspect of the "real" world, as you called it :wink:.




Yeah, that's what happened with non-euclidean geometry. But it took more than a hundred years from the invention of non-euclidean geometry until it was "proven" in the sense that it was shown that it is internally consistent if euclidean geometry is internally consistent. In other cases it didn't go so well. The first formulation of mathematical set theory was considered to be very natural and "real" until the discovery of Russell's paradox gave it the kiss of death.

Later on, Kurt G?del showed that axiomatic arithmetic can't prove it's own consistency. In order to know that it's consistent, we need to interpret the axioms as true statements about some objects (a "model"), which ultimately means that we have to take a peek at the real world.
 


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 6 hours
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: djd586]
    #1752695 - 07/27/03 11:41 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Saying that mathematics is an invention is like saying that a new species of animal we find in the wild is an invention.




That's an interesting comparison. When the first platypus was shown to european scientists, they thought the dead animal they examined was a hoax, sewn together by some practical joker. And a hoax is a kind of invention. When they realized that it was not a hoax, I assume that they began to wonder if the category "mammal" was an invention or a discovery. I think it's both...

#Edit: The other side of the coin is that when Piltdown Man was discovered in 1912, it was assumed to be the first archaeological find of the "missing link" between humans and apes. But some 40 years after this discovery it was proven that it was a hoax: the findings have now been identified as mixed bones from modern humans and orangutans, plus some elephant, hippopotamus, and chimpanzee teeth, all deliberately planted in Piltdown in England.


Edited by Rhizoid (07/28/03 03:18 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinencj
stoner
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 97
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1754295 - 07/28/03 12:19 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i bet most of the people who say its an invention couldn't pass algebra in high school  :smirk:


--------------------
The Mars Volta is the shit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1787276 - 08/07/03 03:27 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

mathematics are in my opinion a human invention used to help explain and organize our discoveries


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1787278 - 08/07/03 03:29 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

B


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinemerlink
IntergalacticTraveler

Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 90
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: 0toxic0]
    #1787492 - 08/07/03 06:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

From dictionary.com:

"math?e?mat?ics:
The study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols."
    -"stud?y:
        The pursuit of knowledge, as by reading, observation, or research."

"dis?cov?er, dis?cov?ered, dis?cov?er?ing, dis?cov?ers:
To notice or learn, especially by making an effort"

"in?vent, in?vent?ed, in?vent?ing, in?vents:
To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

With those two words now being defined, this argument can be made much more articulately. 

My opinion:

*Mathematics are BOTH a discovery and an invention.. If someone was *BORN* a *GENIUS* ==> (then) it was within their mind to both *DISCOVER* logical relationships, and in doing so, ultimately *INVENT* mathematics through outputting their logical systems to the world.

EVERY invention has been discovered (from within the human mind -- a product of imagination)  :eek:

:sun:

-Merlin 


--------------------
"Once you have an experience, you experience it for the rest of your life ? as time is a man-made relativity, expiration of experience is a thought." - Merlin


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: mathematics:human discovery or invention? [Re: merlink]
    #1792392 - 08/08/03 04:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Math, in it's abstract sense, is definitely a discovery. At one point in human history, it wasn't known that 2 + 3 = 5, but that ignorance didn't negate the fact that if you put two things in an empty box then put three more things in the box, you'll have five things in the box. This knowledge that five things result from the addition of 2 and 3 is a discovery. It was still a fact before it was discovered, so it couldn't be an invention.

The application of that knowledge to solve real-world engineering problems, for example, is an invention.

So, math is discovered and applied through invention for our benefit.

-Diploid


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Bulk Substrate


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Discovery vs. invention gribochek 2,077 5 10/02/15 12:24 AM
by once in a lifetime
* Humans, computers, and the superorganism skaMariaPastora 1,381 11 04/03/02 07:07 PM
by Anonymous
* Mathematical Explanation...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Deiymiyan 10,438 140 03/10/06 11:01 AM
by fireworks_god
* Alien/Human Relations, Version 2
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
ShroomismM 14,088 103 02/08/04 08:12 PM
by Shroomism
* Human is Error Meph 1,138 8 07/22/03 04:34 PM
by Azmodeus
* Deep Entheogenic Adventurer Discovers...
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 5,008 46 08/23/03 11:10 PM
by MindTrap
* DELETED (Maybe Not)
( 1 2 3 all )
Zylo 5,410 42 02/14/02 04:30 PM
by Lallafa
* greatest human achievement?
( 1 2 3 all )
manna_man 3,603 50 06/13/03 02:22 AM
by Malachi

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
5,087 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2022 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.063 seconds spending 0.016 seconds on 16 queries.