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Re: Communism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1177178 -

Ok, I get 35 cents more than half of that.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Communism [Re: Skikid16]
    #1177183 -

hell i wouldn't work for double that.... :grin:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Communism [Re: hongomon]
    #1177186 -


I have already said that I think it is wrong for American companies to operate in countries where the population is not allowed to democratically address their
concerns.


That's good of you to think so. How exactly do you determine if a population is allowed to democratically address their concerns?

If they are allowed to elect their government.


What do you think about the way the U.S. government has used its power to implement certain "democracies" in nations throughout the world?

Cite some examples please.


However, unless the society you're using to make that argument is an
isolationist society, it just doesn't add up. Where do they get their
resources? Maybe Newton's third law of motion doesn't apply exactly
here (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction:
resources move to supply a certain demand, resources are moved away
from another demand)


What point are you trying to get across with this paragraph?


Simply that for a nation such as the U.S. to be as "succesful" (and excessive) as it is, it requires very inequal trade arrangements.

There is no doubt that the buying power of Americans would
decrease if American companies were to only set up shop in democratic
countries with reasonable labor and environmental laws. However,
Americans would still enjoy prosperity.


but you said yourself there is a finite amount of (some)
resources...so what then?


When a resource is gone...it is gone.


This is going off-topic a bit, but I just want to say that I really wish more people would want to seek a lifestyle that used less energy and less of other resources. Lifestyle is like the big unmentionable where this issue is concerned.

Yes, it is a shame that people are often so greedy and over-consumptive,
because it creates a terrible strain on the environment.


Except in the case where we obtain goods and resources from countries
where the civilian population has little or no say in the government,
the resources that we acquire are willingly given to us at agreed
upon prices. This economic interaction benefits both the buyer and
the seller.


I think the claim of "equally beneficial interaction" is often a lie. Often enough to be a big part of our problem.

Cite some examples please.


Furthermore, we in the U.S. have, theoretically, quite a bit of say in government. What's going on here ? My point is that we can't look at these serious global issues and say, "Well as long as there is 'democracy' of one form or another, the problem must lie elsewhere."

Democracies are not problem free. But thankfully, the people who live in
democracies are allowed to participate in the political process to address
the problems that they deem as being of concern.


I agree with you, though: no matter how worthy the intentions,
and no matter how benevolent the leader(s), a top-to-bottom
installation of any ideology is not the way to go.


Someone else sees the light!


I see the same thing going on when the U.S. supports, funds, trains, or outright installs governments it prefers in countries all over the world. "Democracies", of course.

Again, I say cite examples.


I also see top-to-bottom methodism in the way the American people are fed certain information while other information is so marginalized.

You can choose to get your information from whatever source that you wish.


Ideal - An idea that expresses hope for Mankind in the way of
an idea that should be followed by all humans. Yet,
in real life, not everybody is going to agree with it.
And the people that do, will not always be able to
fulfill the obligations of the idea.


Yes. And yet, as far as I can tell, an ideal is still the best thing to work towards. It's all about direction. We'll never arrive at a state, ever.

Yes, I guess that is the best that we can hope for.


RandalFlagg

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Re: Communism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1177194 -

Auto-Summary
This forum post discusses the legitimacy of workers taking over their own production methods and the differences between national revolutions and imperialist invasions. The author argues that the Soviet Union's gains, despite low production, were due to starting from a disadvantaged position. They reference Trotsky's defense of the USSR against imperialist attacks and his call for overthrowing Stalin's bureaucratic regime. The post emphasizes that while Stalinist bureaucracies exist, they are not the same as bourgeois capitalists and can lead to a new ruling class if capitalism returns. It also addresses the impact of wage cuts and capitalist violence on workers, drawing from recent strikes and lockouts. The author concludes that irreconcilable class interests will continue to fuel class struggle until revolutionary change becomes the only option.

RandalFlagg,

No one is advocating taking over any country on a national basis. You seem to have that idea mistaken. When the working class of their own country takes over their own methods of production, that is completely just and legitimate. It is NOT the same as invasion. You seem to think that a world revolution means invasion, which it does not. My counter argument to that is that the imperialists have worked hard to maintaining their system throughout the world with the use of fascist terror, starvation blockades, wars, ....etc

You deny that there were gains made in these revolutions? Well, in that case then for you the counterrevolutionary destruction of USSR must've meant that nothing has changed for Russians right? If you really believe that, you are obviously blind, and a simple look at the statistics of living conditions before and after will prove this.

Yes, I know that production in the USSR was low....But it was NOT because of lazyness or lack of incentive. Remember, the USSR started off in a backward impoverished country, and to reach to the point where they became the worlds second superpower is something even some advanced capitalist countries cound never dream of doing.

Trotsky criticized the Soviet Union for its berucratization and lack of workers democracy, which like i said before existed after the 1917 revolution. However, Trotsky nonetheless was willing to defend the soviet union against an imperialist attack, because there were GAINS made in that revolution, and counterrevolution would be worse then living in a stalinist beaurcaracy.. At the same time, he called on the workers to overthrow stalin in a political beaurcracy.

The same principles apply today. Politics are contradictory, and conditions are shaped from the different social forces that exist. Just because China, Cuba, have parasitic stalinist castes, does not mean that their military, or workers are stalinist. The stalinists are simply administrators, and cannot even exploit workers as much as capitalists can since they cant even own property. Granted their privledges and saleries are enormous compared to the average worker, this does not make them the same as bourgeois capitalists, it does however create the breeding ground for a new ruling class in the event of capitalist restoration, which is exactly what happened during the counterrevolutionary destruction of the USSR, in which the stalinist traitors took over factories...etc, as their own property and became the new bourgeoise.

The bourgeoisie has at its command, the police, the prison, military, not to mention the press. Working class conciousness is constantly poisoned by bourgeois ideology, i.e nationalism, anti-immigrant, racism...etc but in the course of class struggle workers become more receptive to revolutionary ideas as they are more and more attacked by the bougeois rulers.

You dont think wages are lowered in the interests of capital? Its communist propaganda you say? Its useful propaganda, but its one that is very much true, and anytime you talk to striking workers you can see that. Just look at the firefighters strike in Britain, or the ILWU lockout in the US, and the possible NYC transit strike coming up. Theres a small industrial town nearby where I live, in Chatham, Ontario where there was a strike, and the company responded by speeding a truck full of scabs through the picket line, injuring 6 and nearly killing 1 worker. This is the violence the capitalists will go through just to protect their profits. Even in Russia, when the war with Germany initially broke out, most workers were poisoned with nationalism, and beat up workers that were Bolshevik, or expressed opposition to the war, but this quickly changed as workers saw that living conditions quickly deteriorated. The october revolution ended this war.

It will be interesting to see what happens in China, where there have been numerous strikes, protests, blockades, by workers against the capitalist market reforms, because they know what it means for them, and that they wont be among the winners of these reforms. All the imperialists want to do is to turn china into one giant sweat shop.

Like I said, the bourgeosie, and the working class have interests which are irreconcilable, and any unity between them, is one of fraud, and cannot last for long without eventually coming down to class struggle conflict, which does and will continue to happen till conditions deterroriate to the point where the only way out is through revolutionary means.

The fact that classes exist, and that they have different interests is not communist propaganda, it was a fact that was acknowledged by bourgeois economists long before marx came out with the communist manifesto.

Iluvdemshrooms,
I cannot speak for your situation, and I tend to find arguments based on personal experience....not useful. I could hear the same thing from ten differnet people, or the same on the other side. But the point is, most people dont mind working, and recognize that they have to do so in order to survive, to buy food, support their kids...etc. A lot of working class families find it hard to do that, and can only make enough to get by, while their bosses make a ton of money off their labour.

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Re: Communism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1177328 -

What do you think about the way the U.S. government has used its power to implement certain "democracies" in nations throughout the world?

Cite some examples please.

Well, gee, maybe we have different ideas about what the U.S. government has been doing (and still is) in Central and South America, Southeast Asia, not to mention a whole list of other regions of the world.  The notion of "installing democracy" has become so unalarming that it's been treated very matter-of-factly by the media where Iraq is concerned.

Specifics aside, though--where  might  you have thought, had you taken a stab, I was referring to?  You seem aware of things--where might a person such as myself  suspect  that this has taken place, and why do you think I'm wrong to think so?  (I realize this threatens to spin us way off-topic, treat it how you want.)

The same comment holds for your other example requests.  This is no big secret that I'm trying to confuse anyone about.

If they are allowed to elect their government.

The Iraqis elected Hussein.  :grin: 

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Re: Communism [Re: hongomon]
    #1177470 -

hongomon,
To say that Iraqi's elected hussein is laughable. There is no denying that he is the murderous dictator that the imperialists prop him up to be. But it was the imperialists that put him in power in the first place, and helped him develop chemical weapons.

However, to bolster your argument, I will cite examples of imperialist intervention for you.

Chile:
On Sept 11, 1973 the CIA under the orders of the US government overthrew a democratically elected left nationalist leader, Salvador Allande, and replaced him with Augusto Pinochet, leading up to the deaths of thousands of workers, leftists

Iran:
US Installed the Shah into power, in order to keep a hold on oil resources, the shah was later overthrown by muslim shieks.

Afghanistan:
CIA trains and funds the mujahadeen fighters, including...gasp...Osama Bin Ladin. Yes thats right, the US created its own terrorists, and they were terrorists. The mujahadeen waged a civil war against the ruling PDPA government on the basis that they did not want women gaining rights. This grotesque intervention later resulted in Sept 11.

Iraq:
US helps Saddam Hussein and his Ba'athist party into power, also helps him develop weapons of mass destruction to be used against Kurds and Iran.

Vietnam:
US helps in the assasination of the south vietnamese leader, later starts the Vietnam war leading up to the murder of millions of Vietnamese. However, the vietnamese were victorious against US imperialism, and as a result demoralized the imperialists for many years to come.

Im sure there are a lot more.

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Re: Communism [Re: Eric]
    #1177485 -

Eric writes:

When the working class of their own country takes over their own methods of production, that is completely just and legitimate.

If by that you mean a bunch of workers get together to buy or build a factory, you are correct that it is just and legitimate. If instead you mean they are to seize a factory belonging to others, then you are of course dead wrong -- there is nothing just and legitimate about theft.

Yes, I know that production in the USSR was low....But it was NOT because of lazyness or lack of incentive.

It was low because Communism doesn't work.

Remember, the USSR started off in a backward impoverished country, and to reach to the point where they became the worlds second superpower is something even some advanced capitalist countries cound never dream of doing.

First of all, the advanced "capitalist" countries all outstripped Russia in that same time period -- 1917 to 1991. Second, the only way in which Russia could have been considered a "superpower" was in its military might -- in every other area from making shoes to growing wheat it was an abysmal failure. Tens of millions of people starved to death because they couldn't feed their own population -- up until 1991, Russia was STILL importing food every year from the West. Thirdly, Russia invaded and occupied many of its neighbors and shipped their resources back to Russia, and they STILL couldn't come close to satisfying even the minimal requirements for the most basic consumer goods.

The bourgeoisie has at its command, the police, the prison, military, not to mention the press.

In the West, perhaps. They certainly didn't in the Soviet Union, or in Communist China.

The bottom line is that Marxism, Communism, Stalinism, Maoism, Leninism, Trotskyism, Socialism, Fascism... are all merely variations on the same theme. The underlying principle is that the individual is valueless and has no rights other than those The Collective chooses to toss his way. In these "Groupist" societies, initiation of force is the order of the day. Any excess is justified in the name of "The Group". This is why all such societies are doomed to failure. It doesn't MATTER who is in charge, be it a "workers soviet" or a cabal of bureaucrats, the fundamental principle is flawed. One cannot secure the rights of people by violating their rights.

I note that you use the standard excuse of all Communists -- "The reason Communism hasn't worked in our country is that there are still other countries who are not yet Communist." This might possibly be arguable if the country in question is an underpopulated rock in the middle of an ocean somewhere with no resources (sort of like Hong Kong, for example), but it certainly has no validity in the largest country in the world (the USSR) and the second largest country in the world (Communist China). Both of those countries have no lack of rich farmland, no lack of resources, and no lack of laborers. What they did lack is a politico-economic structure with at least a tenuous grasp of reality.

Your other excuse is the standard Communist whine that "Stalin got it wrong", or "Mao got it wrong", or "Lenin strayed from the principles", or "Trotsky couldn't build a consensus," or .... fill in the blank. In other words, it is not the system that is fault, but the people in charge of administering the system. Well, guess what? God himself couldn't make Communism work because Communism is inherently unworkable. Without at least some vestige of a free market (which necessarily requires private property) the economy of any society will be a shambles. The reason why Russia never could produce enough shoes that lasted more than three weeks without falling apart was not just because the workers had no incentive to do so, but also because without unbiased market input there is no way to decide how many shoes should be produced where by whom from what materials at what cost. This has been amply demonstrated in theory by countless economists and in practice by every attempt at building a Communist country.

Like RandalFlagg, I too have read Marx and the Communist Manifesto. I have also read Bakhunin and Proudhon and others of the same ilk. Like RandalFlagg and countless others before us, I too had no problems identifying Marx's errors. Why is it that every apologist for Communism just presumes that people who are capable of detecting the glaring flaws in Marxist theory "haven't read" or "don't understand" Marx? I personally find it incomprehensible that people TODAY can't identify those errors. MAYBE, when it was first published, "Das Kapital" had enough seductive pseudo-reasoning in it to gull the credulous folk at whom it was aimed, but to think it is capable of fooling people in the Twenty-first century is saddening indeed.

pinky


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Re: Communism [Re: Eric]
    #1177632 -

Auto-Summary
This forum post debates the legitimacy of communist revolutions and the impact of communist regimes. The author argues that communist revolutions often result in dictatorships and totalitarian states, citing historical examples like the Soviet Union, North Vietnam, China, and Afghanistan. They claim that the gains made in these revolutions were minimal compared to the establishment of authoritarian governments. The author also criticizes the concept of a "world revolution," stating that it requires universal consent, which is unlikely given the diverse beliefs of people worldwide. They defend the Soviet Union's rise to superpower status, attributing it to factors like population, resources, and military strength, rather than the economic system. The author dismisses Trotsky's criticisms of the Soviet Union, pointing to instances of dissidence being suppressed. They argue that communism has created a new ruling class with absolute power, contrasting this with the capitalist system, where individuals can earn wealth through effort and entrepreneurship. The post concludes by questioning whether the author will engage with their criticisms of communism, emphasizing the inherent class struggle and inevitability of conflict between the working class and bourgeoisie.


When the working class of their own country takes over their own
methods of production, that is completely just and legitimate. It
is NOT the same as invasion.

It is theft. They would be taking something that was created and
that is owned by someone else.


You seem to think that a world revolution means invasion, which it
does not.

I was only citing actual historical examples of communist
"revolution" and imperialism. Communists have a history of blatant
aggressions, and not one of the revolutions resulted in a "true"
communist state, where everyone is happy and free. They all resulted
in dictatorships.

The thing is, a world revolution would require EVERYBODY believing
in the revolution. Not everybody wants to live in a controlled
economy. Since you never answer any of my questions, I will ask
this again; What about the people who don't want to live like this?
Would you force them to take part in it? Would you take away their
personal resources by force?


My counter argument to that is that the imperialists have worked hard
to maintain their system throughout the world with the use of fascist
terror, starvation blockades, wars, ....etc

Examples please. While you come up with some I will give examples
of communist imperialism: the Soviet Union gobbling up Eastern
European countries, North Vietnam attacking South Vietnam, China
invading Tibet, and the Soviet Union invading Afghanistan.


You deny that there were gains made in these revolutions?

Again, I will repeat myself. I fail to see how any of the
communist revolutions had any benefit, considering that every
single one resulted in a totalitarian state being established.


Well, in that case then for you the counterrevolutionary destruction
of USSR must've meant that nothing has changed for Russians right?
If you really believe that, you are obviously blind, and a simple
look at the statistics of living conditions before and after will
prove this.

Again, I will repeat myself. When people are so used to an economic
way of life, and then all of a sudden it changes, there will be
problems. Change is painful.


Yes, I know that production in the USSR was low....But it was NOT
because of lazyness or lack of incentive. Remember, the USSR started
off in a backward impoverished country, and to reach to the point
where they became the worlds second superpower is something even some
advanced capitalist countries cound never dream of doing.

They reached superpower status because of their large population,
vast natural resources, and large military, not because of their
economic system.


Trotsky criticized the Soviet Union for its berucratization and lack
of workers democracy, which like i said before existed after the 1917
revolution.

Did you see my referral to the Bolsheviks squashing the January 18
demonstration? That doesn't sound like democracy to me. And,
even if things were going great in this post-revolutionary
"worker's paradise", they didn't last that way for very long. All
it took was one man whose greed and ambition perverted the ideal.


However, Trotsky nonetheless was willing to defend the
soviet union against an imperialist attack, because there were GAINS
made in that revolution

I will ask for the millionth time, can you justify the gains(which
I don't think were very numerous) that were made, given what ended
up happening to the Soviet Union and its citizens?


The same principles apply today. Politics are contradictory, and
conditions are shaped from the different social forces that exist.
Just because China, Cuba, have parasitic stalinist castes, does not
mean that their military, or workers are stalinist.

But, it is very telling that with each one of these communist
revolutions, that were meant to liberate the mass of citizens, a
select few gained power and they exercise it with utter
ruthlessness.


The stalinists are simply administrators, and cannot even exploit
workers as much as capitalists can since they cant even own property.

They don't own property, but they enjoy ABSOLUTE POWER AND DOMINION
over the citizens of their countries. That is worth more than any
property.


Granted their privledges and saleries are enormous compared to the
average worker, this does not make them the same as bourgeois
capitalists, it does however create the breeding ground for a new
ruling class in the event of capitalist restoration,

At least bourgeois capitalists put forth ambition, effort,
intelligence, and talent, and put their own resources on the line
to get what they have. They earned what they have. They deserve
to enjoy what they have.


which is exactly what happened
during the counterrevolutionary destruction of the USSR, in which
the stalinist traitors took over factories...etc, as their own
property and became the new bourgeoise.

I am not terribly knowledgable of current Russia and the
post-communist tribulations. Therefore, I will not comment on it.


The bourgeoisie has at its command, the police, the prison, military,
not to mention the press.

No, it doesn't. The police are people who enforce the laws,
which exist because the citizens voted in candidates who
implemented them. Prisons exist for people who break the
laws that are in effect. The military responds to the commands
of officials who are elected by the citizens. And, there are
a myriad of sources that you can get information from, many that
espouse ideas that are in line with yours. Did they have this kind
of variety of informational sources in communist nations?...I think
not.


Working class conciousness is constantly poisoned by bourgeois
ideology, i.e nationalism, anti-immigrant,
racism...etc

Bourgeois ideology? That is an innaccurate generalization. You are
saying that an entire group of people, who happen to own property
and who have wealth at their disposal, are all racist and
excessively nationalistic. This is not true at all. In my
experience, it is left-wing oriented thought(political correctness,
etc..) that is poisoning the minds of people.


You dont think wages are lowered in the interests of capital? Its
communist propaganda you say? Its useful propaganda, but its one
that is very much true, and anytime you talk to striking workers you
can see that. Just look at the firefighters strike in Britain, or the
ILWU lockout in the US, and the possible NYC transit strike coming
up.

People are free to leave and do something else if their wages
are not to their satisfaction. Because the workers have the right
to pick and choose their employer, and what they will work for,
the employer must make an effort to please the employee. If they
don't, they will lose them. Competition allows choices and increases
the quality of almost every aspect of life.


Theres a small industrial town nearby where I live, in Chatham,
Ontario where there was a strike, and the company responded by
speeding a truck full of scabs through the picket line, injuring 6
and nearly killing 1 worker.

That is assault. The injured people can have charges filed. We live
in countries where people have options if they are legally wronged.
Thank God for democracy.


This is the violence the capitalists will go through just to
protect their profits.

I don't see how this one example is indicative of all "capitalists"
who exist. This is another generalization.

Hm...this sounds just like the kind of violence that communists
have exercised again and again to protect their power and spread
their influence.


It will be interesting to see what happens in China, where there have
been numerous strikes, protests, blockades, by workers against the
capitalist market reforms, because they know what it means for them,
and that they wont be among the winners of these reforms. All the
imperialists want to do is to turn china into one giant sweat shop.

A sweat shop is not a desirable thing, but it is better than a
totalitarian dictatorship where every aspect of life is controlled.

Keep in mind that I have repeatedly said that I think every person
in this world should be allowed to participate in instituting
political change in their countries in order to address the problems
that they face. The people that are facing the realities of these
sweat shops should be allowed to democratically vote for candidates
who have the ability to institute labor and/or environmental laws.
A controlled capitalism that exists in a democratic nation can
enjoy the benefits of capitalism, while lessening the problems
of it.


Like I said, the bourgeosie, and the working class have interests
which are irreconcilable, and any unity between them, is one of
fraud, and cannot last for long without eventually coming down to
class struggle conflict which does and will continue to happen till
conditions deterroriate to the point where the only way out is
through revolutionary means.

You are framing all of reality and all of it's inhabitants into
a strict, unreasonable, and innaccurate description. I fear that
you are so blinded by your ideology, that you are not even seeing
what I am saying.


The fact that classes exist, and that they have different interests
is not communist propaganda, it was a fact that was acknowledged by
bourgeois economists long before marx came out with the communist
manifesto.

Classes do exist. There is nothing wrong with inequality, because
this inequality is usually proportional to the amount of effort and
skill that people put forth in their acquiring of resources. What
matters is if the large majority of people have access to
important things. When I say important things, I mean food and
shelter. In America, these things are in abundance, because a
capitalist economy has a high productivity rate.

Before I go, I will ask one final time; are you going to address
any of my points and criticisms of communism? Or are you going
to continue to mouth communist rhetoric?


RandalFlagg

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Re: Communism [Re: hongomon]
    #1177636 -


What do you think about the way the U.S. government has used its power to
implement certain "democracies" in nations throughout the world?


Cite some examples please.


Well, gee, maybe we have different ideas about what the U.S. government has
been doing (and still is) in Central and South America, Southeast Asia, not to
mention a whole list of other regions of the world. The notion of "installing
democracy" has become so unalarming that it's been treated very matter-of-factly
by the media where Iraq is concerned.

I wish you would cite more specific examples(specific countries), but I can agree
with you in principle. It is not the business of the United States to meddle in the
governmental affairs of another country.


Specifics aside, though--where might you have thought, had you taken a stab, I
was referring to? You seem aware of things--where might a person such as
myself suspect that this has taken place, and why do you think I'm wrong to think
so? (I realize this threatens to spin us way off-topic, treat it how you want.)

I thought you might bring up Iraq, Cuba, or the financing of certain rebel groups
that were fighting for something that American administrations agreed with.


If they are allowed to elect their government.


The Iraqis elected Hussein.

Do you consider an election "free", when it is in a country that is ruled by a
strong-man with a powerful and ruthless secret police organization who will kill or
imprison anybody who raises even the slightest dissent? I wouldn't doubt it if
the people who voted "No" were dragged off and shot.


RandalFlagg

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Re: Communism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1177787 -

Sorry guys--I was hoping the Hussein example would be taken as a joke. (I mean, c'mon--I used one of the smiley faces!)


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Re: Communism [Re: hongomon]
    #1177800 -

Quote:
Sorry guys--I was hoping the Hussein example would be taken as a joke.  (I mean, c'mon--I used one of the smiley faces!) 


No jokes allowed in the Political forum. :wink:


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: Communism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1177809 -

Auto-Summary
This forum post debates the legitimacy of communist revolutions and their outcomes. The author argues that revolts against the bourgeoisie are justified, contrasting this with historical examples of communist regimes turning into dictatorships. They claim that communist states have resulted in totalitarian rule, with the ruling class exploiting workers. The author also addresses concerns about personal resources, claiming that factories and resources belong to the working class, not the bourgeoisie. They criticize the Soviet Union and other communist regimes for their totalitarianism, lack of workers' democracy, and eventual decline. The author concludes by reiterating their stance on the irreconcilable class interests and the need for revolutionary change.

Randalflagg,

When the working class of their own country takes over their own
methods of production, that is completely just and legitimate. It
is NOT the same as invasion.

It is theft. They would be taking something that was created and
that is owned by someone else.


Theft? The factories are built from the blood and sweat of the working people! You want to talk about theft? What about when the bourgeosie profits off toiling workers who can barely feed their families? Is that not theft?

You seem to think that a world revolution means invasion, which it
does not.

I was only citing actual historical examples of communist
"revolution" and imperialism. Communists have a history of blatant
aggressions, and not one of the revolutions resulted in a "true"
communist state, where everyone is happy and free. They all resulted
in dictatorships.


And there are reasons for that, and ways to get rid of it. A stalinist beauracracy still has to defend the interests of the workers at times to survive, although at other times it is completely treasonous in order to appease the imperialists. That is the nature of stalinism. That is the flaw with socialism in one country.

The thing is, a world revolution would require EVERYBODY believing
in the revolution. Not everybody wants to live in a controlled
economy. Since you never answer any of my questions, I will ask
this again; What about the people who don't want to live like this?
Would you force them to take part in it? Would you take away their
personal resources by force?


What personal resources are you talking about? Factories are not personal resources. The bourgeosie is not going to all of the sudden starve to death because they lost their ruling power.

In a workers revolution, the interests of the majority would be put forward, over that of the minority (former ruling class), so the only ones who would have anything against it would be the bourgeosisie. Obviously such things are bound to happen as class interests are irreconcilable, but right now, the same thing is happening only the bourgeosie is in command.

My counter argument to that is that the imperialists have worked hard
to maintain their system throughout the world with the use of fascist
terror, starvation blockades, wars, ....etc

Examples please. While you come up with some I will give examples
of communist imperialism: the Soviet Union gobbling up Eastern
European countries, North Vietnam attacking South Vietnam, China
invading Tibet, and the Soviet Union invading Afghanistan.


Chile with Pinochet, Iraq with Saddam Hussein, Afghanistan with the mujahadeen terrorists, South vietnam, US assasinated its leader, then started vietnam war, Korean war....etc

By the way the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a just war and it would have been the only way to liberate the women who were hidiously oppressed by the mujahadeen, who started a war against the Afghan government on the basis that they didnt want women having rights.

When the soviet union occupied afghanistan, women were able to attend universities. The US made a concious decision in subjucting these women to their oppressors when they supported the mujahadeen.


You deny that there were gains made in these revolutions?

Again, I will repeat myself. I fail to see how any of the
communist revolutions had any benefit, considering that every
single one resulted in a totalitarian state being established.


Well then you must be a blind man. Either that or just really ignorant.


Well, in that case then for you the counterrevolutionary destruction
of USSR must've meant that nothing has changed for Russians right?
If you really believe that, you are obviously blind, and a simple
look at the statistics of living conditions before and after will
prove this.

Again, I will repeat myself. When people are so used to an economic
way of life, and then all of a sudden it changes, there will be
problems. Change is painful.


Change is painful? That would mean there were gains made in the russian revolution then?


Yes, I know that production in the USSR was low....But it was NOT
because of lazyness or lack of incentive. Remember, the USSR started
off in a backward impoverished country, and to reach to the point
where they became the worlds second superpower is something even some
advanced capitalist countries cound never dream of doing.

They reached superpower status because of their large population,
vast natural resources, and large military, not because of their
economic system.


Thats not completely true! Could you imagine Russia being the superpower under the tsar?


Trotsky criticized the Soviet Union for its berucratization and lack
of workers democracy, which like i said before existed after the 1917
revolution.

Did you see my referral to the Bolsheviks squashing the January 18
demonstration? That doesn't sound like democracy to me. And,
even if things were going great in this post-revolutionary
"worker's paradise", they didn't last that way for very long. All
it took was one man whose greed and ambition perverted the ideal.


I'll have to get back to you on this one when i find more details on it.
However, Russia was in a civil war at this time, and its amazing at all that they were able to protect the gains of the revolution considering that they were invaded by different imperialist powers shortly after, including Japan, britain, US, Canada...etc

They were also in a civil war against the white army..

But seriously, whats your point, in the 1980's Ronald Regan murdered black babies when the government dropped C4 explosives on the MOVE commune in Phillidelphia and arrested the only surviving member, Ramona Africa

What about the slaughter in Waco, Texas?


However, Trotsky nonetheless was willing to defend the
soviet union against an imperialist attack, because there were GAINS
made in that revolution

I will ask for the millionth time, can you justify the gains(which
I don't think were very numerous) that were made, given what ended
up happening to the Soviet Union and its citizens?

I could ask you the same question about imperialist intervention in other countries (see above) what were the gains made? of course any gains made in those interventions were strictly in the interests of the bourgeosie in surpressing the working class


The same principles apply today. Politics are contradictory, and
conditions are shaped from the different social forces that exist.
Just because China, Cuba, have parasitic stalinist castes, does not
mean that their military, or workers are stalinist.

But, it is very telling that with each one of these communist
revolutions, that were meant to liberate the mass of citizens, a
select few gained power and they exercise it with utter
ruthlessness.


Yep, nonetheless they're still forced to defend the interests of the workers to survive, but as trotskyists, we call on the working class of these countries to overthrow their traitors, and gain power for themselves through soviets (workers councils) and return the country to the road of internationalism and workers democracy.


The stalinists are simply administrators, and cannot even exploit
workers as much as capitalists can since they cant even own property.

They don't own property, but they enjoy ABSOLUTE POWER AND DOMINION
over the citizens of their countries. That is worth more than any
property.


Nope, thats where your wrong, If that was true, then counterrevolution in the USSR wouldnt have happened, but it did because the bearucracy became a breeding ground for the new bourgeosie.


Granted their privledges and saleries are enormous compared to the
average worker, this does not make them the same as bourgeois
capitalists, it does however create the breeding ground for a new
ruling class in the event of capitalist restoration,

At least bourgeois capitalists put forth ambition, effort,
intelligence, and talent, and put their own resources on the line
to get what they have. They earned what they have. They deserve
to enjoy what they have.


Hahahahaha! thats the funniest thing ive ever heard. This does not deserve any serious response. The capitalists would not be where they were in their high social position with all their money if it was not for the TALENT and INTELLIGENCE of the workers.


which is exactly what happened
during the counterrevolutionary destruction of the USSR, in which
the stalinist traitors took over factories...etc, as their own
property and became the new bourgeoise.

I am not terribly knowledgable of current Russia and the
post-communist tribulations. Therefore, I will not comment on it.


...


The bourgeoisie has at its command, the police, the prison, military,
not to mention the press.

No, it doesn't. The police are people who enforce the laws,
which exist because the citizens voted in candidates who
implemented them. Prisons exist for people who break the
laws that are in effect. The military responds to the commands
of officials who are elected by the citizens. And, there are
a myriad of sources that you can get information from, many that
espouse ideas that are in line with yours. Did they have this kind
of variety of informational sources in communist nations?...I think
not.


The police protect the property and interests of the bourgeosie, the prisons imprison those who violate it. When a strike happens, who are the ones that arrest the union leaders, and put them in jail?


Working class conciousness is constantly poisoned by bourgeois
ideology, i.e nationalism, anti-immigrant,
racism...etc

Bourgeois ideology? That is an innaccurate generalization. You are
saying that an entire group of people, who happen to own property
and who have wealth at their disposal, are all racist and
excessively nationalistic. This is not true at all. In my
experience, it is left-wing oriented thought(political correctness,
etc..) that is poisoning the minds of people.


I didnt say they're all racist, but certainly racism is used to their advantage to keep workers from uniting together.


You dont think wages are lowered in the interests of capital? Its
communist propaganda you say? Its useful propaganda, but its one
that is very much true, and anytime you talk to striking workers you
can see that. Just look at the firefighters strike in Britain, or the
ILWU lockout in the US, and the possible NYC transit strike coming
up.

People are free to leave and do something else if their wages
are not to their satisfaction. Because the workers have the right
to pick and choose their employer, and what they will work for,
the employer must make an effort to please the employee. If they
don't, they will lose them. Competition allows choices and increases
the quality of almost every aspect of life.


People are "free to leave" ? Thats a lot like saying if your born into this world, you have the right to live, or to die. Thats the kind of freedom you mean.


Theres a small industrial town nearby where I live, in Chatham,
Ontario where there was a strike, and the company responded by
speeding a truck full of scabs through the picket line, injuring 6
and nearly killing 1 worker.

That is assault. The injured people can have charges filed. We live
in countries where people have options if they are legally wronged.
Thank God for democracy.


Democracy? What about when the KKK murdered 5 leftists, trade unionists, blacks on national TV in Greensboro, Pennsyvania, and were dismissed by a jury on the basis that the people they murdered were communists?

Democracy means democracy for the bourgeosie, and to the workign class it means jack shit.. Why do you think most people abstain from voting in elections? Vote for one bourgoise party over another? whats the difference?

This is the violence the capitalists will go through just to
protect their profits.

I don't see how this one example is indicative of all "capitalists"
who exist. This is another generalization.

Hm...this sounds just like the kind of violence that communists
have exercised again and again to protect their power and spread
their influence.


It will be interesting to see what happens in China, where there have
been numerous strikes, protests, blockades, by workers against the
capitalist market reforms, because they know what it means for them,
and that they wont be among the winners of these reforms. All the
imperialists want to do is to turn china into one giant sweat shop.

A sweat shop is not a desirable thing, but it is better than a
totalitarian dictatorship where every aspect of life is controlled.

Keep in mind that I have repeatedly said that I think every person
in this world should be allowed to participate in instituting
political change in their countries in order to address the problems
that they face. The people that are facing the realities of these
sweat shops should be allowed to democratically vote for candidates
who have the ability to institute labor and/or environmental laws.
A controlled capitalism that exists in a democratic nation can
enjoy the benefits of capitalism, while lessening the problems
of it.


Sweat shop? Okay....that comment just shows how sick and disgusting you are. The imperialists benefit from the sweat shops in china, at the expense of millions of chinese workers who are OPPOSING these reforms. So much for your democracy.


Like I said, the bourgeosie, and the working class have interests
which are irreconcilable, and any unity between them, is one of
fraud, and cannot last for long without eventually coming down to
class struggle conflict which does and will continue to happen till
conditions deterroriate to the point where the only way out is
through revolutionary means.

You are framing all of reality and all of it's inhabitants into
a strict, unreasonable, and innaccurate description. I fear that
you are so blinded by your ideology, that you are not even seeing
what I am saying.


I could say the same about you.


The fact that classes exist, and that they have different interests
is not communist propaganda, it was a fact that was acknowledged by
bourgeois economists long before marx came out with the communist
manifesto.

Classes do exist. There is nothing wrong with inequality, because
this inequality is usually proportional to the amount of effort and
skill that people put forth in their acquiring of resources. What
matters is if the large majority of people have access to
important things. When I say important things, I mean food and
shelter. In America, these things are in abundance, because a
capitalist economy has a high productivity rate.

Before I go, I will ask one final time; are you going to address
any of my points and criticisms of communism? Or are you going
to continue to mouth communist rhetoric?


Yeah right, in america most people dont even have access to health care. Just look at the ghettos in the cities where people are forced to be on welfare.

Ive read your criticisms, i think ive addressed them all, unless theres anything i missed in which case you can bring them to my attention. But you hardly seem to be reading what i say anyways since im getting tired of saying the same things over and over again.



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Re: Communism [Re: Phred]
    #1178360 -

First of all, the advanced "capitalist" countries all outstripped Russia in that same time period -- 1917 to 1991.

Utter nonsense. List the ones you think did. Britain certainly didn't.

And this is completly ignoring the fact that Russia endured 4 years of the most brutal scorched earth policy war that mankind has ever known losing 40-50 million dead in the process. That's going to have a little effect on the economy don't you think?

Going from feudalism to being able to fight off the most powerful army in history is some going. Look at America 20 years after it started and there is no comparison. The Germans would have strolled straight through it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Communism [Re: Eric]
    #1178571 -

There is so much crap in that post that I'll limit myself to one item.

Quote:
But seriously, whats your point, in the 1980's Ronald Regan murdered black babies when the government dropped C4 explosives on the MOVE commune in Phillidelphia and arrested the only surviving member, Ramona Africa



Ronald Reagen was not mayor or police chief of Philadelphia and as such was not involved in the incident of which you speak. That's like blaming Clinton for the Rodney King affair.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (12/30/02 07:05 AM)

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Re: Communism [Re: Eric]
    #1178635 -

REPLY TO ERIC:

Could you limit your replies to 1 chapter? I'm sure you mean well but damn!!


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1178859 -

I was quite happy when communism ended in my country but now I can see that some thing were not so bad. We had some incredible privileges but everyting went wrong because there was no democracy.
The democratic capitalist countries of northern Europe that had socialist governments for a long time show that such system works pretty well. They're economically very successfull even if the taxes are high. And the services the country offers to their citizens are at a very high level.
Why don't more countires take them as example?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Communism [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1178954 -

Quote:
There is so much crap in that post that I'll limit myself to one item.

Ronald Reagen was not mayor or police chief of Philadelphia and as such was not involved in the incident of which you speak. That's like blaming Clinton for the Rodney King affair.



Nope. The Rodney King beating was an act of police brutality, which is not uncommon though still grotesque. The MOVE bombing was an order from the government and it was a concious decision made by them. The bombing of May 13, 1985 was the signature of Regan's regime to terrorize blacks and anyone else who was out of line with Regans america. The bomb was dropped from an FBI helicopter, so it was the action of the federal government in collaboration with the city, if you wanna get all specific about who did what. Really what difference does it make?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Communism [Re: Eric]
    #1179292 -

Auto-Summary
This forum post argues against communism, emphasizing the legitimacy of workers taking over their methods of production. It counters claims of theft, drawing from the fact that workers built the factories and willingly work under the current system. The author criticizes the idea that all workers "barely feed their families" and points out the excess of food and obesity in America. They argue that a regulated capitalism can have benefits but also inherent inequalities, and that a world revolution would require universal consent, which is unlikely. The post condemns Stalinist regimes as examples of failed communism, citing their totalitarian nature and human rights abuses. It concludes by advocating for economic freedom and personal responsibility, contrasting it with the authoritarianism of communist states.


When the working class of their own country takes over their own
methods of production, that is completely just and legitimate. It
is NOT the same as invasion.


It is theft. They would be taking something that was created and
that is owned by someone else.


Theft? The factories are built from the blood and sweat of the
working people! You want to talk about theft? What about when
the bourgeosie profits off toiling workers who can barely feed
their families? Is that not theft?


No it is not. Because the workers willingly built the factories,
they willingly work in them, and they are free to leave whenever they
want to and to do whatever they want to do. How can you call it
theft, when they willingly consent to what conditions they
choose to immerse themselves in?

The whole idea that all of the workers can "barely feed their families"
is a myth. There is an excess of food in America, in fact, obesity
rates among the poor are unbelievably high.

While the workers in Russia starved, Americans were getting fat.
This is proof of the following concepts:

In a capitalist society, where people have an incentive to achieve,
the production rate will be very high. Because of the competition
inherent in the economy, products and services tend to gravitate
to being of the lowest possible price, the highest quality, and the
largest availability, which gives people of a capitalist economy
ready access to many of the things which are necessary to survive.

Admittedly, there are times when economic competition brings
about bad things(environmental damage, extreme polarization of
wealth, money influencing politics, etc..). That is why I believe
in a regulated capitalism, that can enjoy the benefits, and lessen
the problems. And, I think that the regulations should be directly
accountable to the people, i.e. implemented by elected officials.
For example, we have laws protecting the environment, we have
laws that increase the tax rate as a person makes more money, and
we have laws that dictate that political contributions must be
made public. And, if the population so desires it, taxes from the
high productivity of a capitalist economy can be used to fund
programs that benefit the general public. We have to freedom
to change things as problems arise and are identified.

When you allow economic freedom, inequalities will occur. For
example, some people will have the ambition and intelligence
to create and implement a new process or product. When
people willingly purchase or take advantage of this new process
or product, the inventor/implementor will find himself in
possession of a lot of money. Some other people will choose
to hardly participate in the economic process, and that is
their right.


You seem to think that a world revolution means invasion, which it
does not.


I was only citing actual historical examples of communist
"revolution" and imperialism. Communists have a history of blatant
aggressions, and not one of the revolutions resulted in a "true"
communist state, where everyone is happy and free. They all resulted
in dictatorships.


And there are reasons for that, and ways to get rid of it. A stalinist
beauracracy still has to defend the interests of the workers at times
to survive, although at other times it is completely treasonous in
order to appease the imperialists. That is the nature of stalinism.
That is the flaw with socialism in one country.

Was Stalin "defending the workers" or "appeasing the imperialists"
when he murdered millions of his own people, liquidated anybody
showing the slightest amount of dissent, or when he invaded
country after country because of his ambitions for power and
territory? He was not defending or appeasing anybody. He
was exercising power and conquering at the expense of other
people.

Stalin is the perfect example of why communism won't work. He
was the epitomy of selfishness. How a man like him could have
risen through the ranks of a political system that ardently
believed in equality for all, is amazing. Here's a newsflash:
people sometimes act selfishly. If people act selfishly at times,
how can they be expected to always sacrifice personal interest,
and act in the best interest of their community? How can they
be counted on to make a consistent and serious effort at economic
production in a controlled economy?

And, I will ask this again: How can you say that Stalin was
"appeasing the imperilists", when he led a consistent effort
to undermine the "imperialist" capitalist countries, by
spying on them and building up military resources to
counter them?


The thing is, a world revolution would require EVERYBODY believing
in the revolution. Not everybody wants to live in a controlled
economy. Since you never answer any of my questions, I will ask
this again; What about the people who don't want to live like this?
Would you force them to take part in it? Would you take away their
personal resources by force?


What personal resources are you talking about?

All of the things that someone owns because of legitimate economic
interaction.


Factories are not personal resources.

Yes they are. They are owned by individuals who through their
own efforts, and the efforts of those who WILLINGLY worked for
an agreed upon wage or compensation, implemented these means of
production.


The bourgeosie is not going to all of the sudden starve to death
because they lost their ruling power.

If communism were to be implemented, a much larger segment of the
population will starve than does now.


In a workers revolution, the interests of the majority would
be put forward, over that of the minority (former ruling class),

How lovely. The "dictatorship of the Group" would be implemented and
the quality of life would suffer immeasurably.


so the only ones who would have anything against it would be the
bourgeosisie.

Or anybody concerned about economic freedom, or any freedom for
that matter.


My counter argument to that is that the imperialists have worked
hard to maintain their system throughout the world with the use
of fascist terror, starvation blockades, wars, ....etc


Examples please. While you come up with some I will give examples
of communist imperialism: the Soviet Union gobbling up Eastern
European countries, North Vietnam attacking South Vietnam, China
invading Tibet, and the Soviet Union invading Afghanistan.


Chile with Pinochet

I am not terribly knowledgable about this example, but I will
make this concession; I think it is wrong for one country to
play around with the government of another. Both America and
the Soviet Union have been guilty of this in the past.


Iraq with Saddam Hussein,
Afghanistan with the mujahadeen terrorists

America allied with them because they were the enemies of our enemies.
In Iraq's case, Iran was the common enemy. In the Mujahadeen's
case, the Soviets were the common enemy. Many many countries
support groups, other countries, and people who agree with their
interests. America is not the only country that has ever done this.


South vietnam, US assasinated its
leader, then started vietnam war

The situation on the Vietnam peninsula from 1900 to 1970 was one
of extreme complexity. Your statement is an innacurate
over-simplification of the entire event.


By the way the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a just war

I have yet to see any proof that it was anything but another
Soviet grab for territory.


When the soviet union occupied afghanistan, women were able to
attend universities.

And let me guess, if communism had been instituted in that country,
the citizens of it would have enjoyed as much freedom as Russian
citizens, which was practically none.


The US made a concious decision in subjucting these women to their
oppressors when they supported the mujahadeen.

The U.S. had to get into bed with some unsavory characters(the
mujahadeen) to fight some even more unsavory characters(the
Soviets).


You deny that there were gains made in these revolutions?


Again, I will repeat myself. I fail to see how any of the
communist revolutions had any benefit, considering that every
single one resulted in a totalitarian state being established.


Well then you must be a blind man. Either that or just really
ignorant.

No I am neither. I am just aware of the fact that in every
single country where a communist revolution took place, brutal
dictatorships ended up existing. How could any benefit have
resulted from that? Yes, the Soviets overthrew the Tsar. But
trading one tyranny for another is not progress.


Well, in that case then for you the counterrevolutionary destruction
of USSR must've meant that nothing has changed for Russians right?
If you really believe that, you are obviously blind, and a simple
look at the statistics of living conditions before and after will
prove this.


Again, I will repeat myself. When people are so used to an economic
way of life, and then all of a sudden it changes, there will be
problems. Change is painful.


Change is painful? That would mean there were gains made in the
russian revolution then?

No. All change has the capability of being painful. Whether
it is for the better, or for the worse.

It is a simple fact of life that sometimes in order to fix things,
you have to bust your ass and go through a lot of hardship.


Remember, the USSR started off in a backward impoverished country,
and to reach to the point where they became the worlds second
superpower


They reached superpower status because of their large population,
vast natural resources, and large military, not because of their
economic system.


Thats not completely true! Could you imagine Russia being the
superpower under the tsar?

No. Because dictatorships tend to not bring out the best in countries,
hence why Russia had a low productivity even after the revolution.
But, we are not comparing the economic realities of tsarism to the
economic realities of communism. We are comparing communism to
capitalism.

It is very telling that this vast country with ample resources,
couldn't even feed itself. Could it be because the economic
system it espoused was so heavily flawed?


they were invaded by different imperialist powers
shortly after, including Japan, britain, US, Canada...etc

The U.S., Canada, or Britian never engaged in a military invasion
of the Soviet Union.


But seriously, whats your point, in the 1980's Ronald Regan murdered
black babies when the government dropped C4 explosives on the MOVE
commune in Phillidelphia and arrested the only surviving member,
Ramona Africa

Ronald Reagan was the President of the United States. He had no
involvement in the police action against MOVE. The mayor and
the chief of police did. I have heard of, but am not terribly
knowledgable of, this event. Therefore, I will not give an
opinion on the event. I will however add that if the mayor and
police chief messed up, they can be replaced, because we live in
a democracy. I have a feeling that you have a very biased view
of this event anyway.


What about the slaughter in Waco, Texas?

David Koresh broke federal firearms laws. The police moved in to
arrest him. The Branch Davidians fired at the police. The
"slaughter" occurred after the Branch Davidians set their own
complex on fire. That is my understanding of that event, but granted
we will probably never know all of the specifics of this tragic
occurrence. But, even if the law enforcement officials(who were
under the command of the Attorney General Janet Reno) did act
improperly, the law allows avenues of legal action so that the
violators of the law can be punished. This INLCUDES people who
are in positions of power.


Democracy? What about when the KKK murdered 5 leftists, trade
unionists, blacks on national TV in Greensboro, Pennsyvania, and
were dismissed by a jury on the basis that the people they murdered
were communists?

You can cite your biased, skewed, and carefully selected examples,
but they do not diminish the fact that communism on a large scale
does not work.


I will ask for the millionth time, can you justify the gains(which
I don't think were very numerous) that were made, given what ended
up happening to the Soviet Union and its citizens?


I could ask you the same question about imperialist intervention in
other countries (see above) what were the gains made? of course any
gains made in those interventions were strictly in the interests of
the bourgeosie in surpressing the working class

Most of the "imperialist intervention" that you mention, seems to
have been self-defence against communist aggression.


But, it is very telling that with each one of these communist
revolutions, that were meant to liberate the mass of citizens, a
select few gained power and they exercise it with utter
ruthlessness.


Yep, nonetheless they're still forced to defend the interests of the
workers to survive,

So, occassionally they stop focusing on the suppression of ideas,
torture, and outright murder, to "help the workers". They justify
their dictatorships by throwing scraps to the workers, who have been
brainwashed to think that only the state can provide what they need.

I don't consider being enslaved to a collective and controlled
economy, to be in the "best interests" of the worker.


but as trotskyists, we call on the working class
of these countries to overthrow their traitors, and gain power for
themselves through soviets (workers councils) and return the country
to the road of internationalism and workers democracy.

*Sigh*...


The stalinists are simply administrators, and cannot even exploit
workers as much as capitalists can since they cant even own property.


They don't own property, but they enjoy ABSOLUTE POWER AND DOMINION
over the citizens of their countries. That is worth more than any
property.


Nope, thats where your wrong, If that was true, then
counterrevolution in the USSR wouldnt have happened

The counter-revolution happened because the Soviet Union's
economic system was flawed and it imploded.


At least bourgeois capitalists put forth ambition, effort,
intelligence, and talent, and put their own resources on the line
to get what they have. They earned what they have. They deserve
to enjoy what they have.


The capitalists would not be where they were in their high social
position with all their money if it was not for the TALENT and
INTELLIGENCE of the workers.

And, I will say again that economic freedom allows for the pooling
of resources. Because of this, inequalities will occur. Some people
will work for other people. Some people will own property. Some
people will have wealth. But, you are free to participate in the
economy in any capacity that you wish. You decide where you are.
You decide what you are willing and unwilling to do. With freedom
comes the possibility of success and failure.


The bourgeoisie has at its command, the police, the prison, military,
not to mention the press.


No, it doesn't. The police are people who enforce the laws,
which exist because the citizens voted in candidates who
implemented them. Prisons exist for people who break the
laws that are in effect. The military responds to the commands
of officials who are elected by the citizens. And, there are
a myriad of sources that you can get information from, many that
espouse ideas that are in line with yours. Did they have this kind
of variety of informational sources in communist nations?...I think
not.


The police protect the property and interests of the bourgeosieil

The police protect the property and interests of ALL people.


A sweat shop is not a desirable thing, but it is better than a
totalitarian dictatorship where every aspect of life is controlled.


Sweat shop? Okay....that comment just shows how sick and disgusting
you are.

Let me ask...Would you rather live in a country where you were free
to work in a sweat shop, or do whatever you wanted to for that matter,
or in a country where every aspect of life is controlled. I would
choose the sweat shop.


The imperialists benefit from the sweat shops in china, at
the expense of millions of chinese workers who are OPPOSING these
reforms. So much for your democracy.


Here's a repeat of a former paragraph of mine:

Keep in mind that I have repeatedly said that I think every person
in this world should be allowed to participate in instituting
political change in their countries in order to address the problems
that they face. The people that are facing the realities of these
sweat shops should be allowed to democratically vote for candidates
who have the ability to institute labor and/or environmental laws.
A controlled capitalism that exists in a democratic nation can
enjoy the benefits of capitalism, while lessening the problems
of it.

The Chinese population can't institute reforms, because...surprise
surprise, they live under a dictatorship.


Classes do exist. There is nothing wrong with inequality, because
this inequality is usually proportional to the amount of effort and
skill that people put forth in their acquiring of resources. What
matters is if the large majority of people have access to
important things. When I say important things, I mean food and
shelter. In America, these things are in abundance, because a
capitalist economy has a high productivity rate.


Yeah right, in america most people dont even have access to health
care.

More exaggeration. EVERYBODY has access to health care. Some people
do not have health insurance coverage, but MOST people do. And,
if someone cannot pay for necessary medical procedures, they can
apply for Medicaid, which a shitload of people(especially people
who can't pay all of the costs associated with giving birth) are on.

You chastise America for not serving every single person with
amazing health care, yet you ignore that in communist economies
throughout the past century, most people didn't have access to
much food or products of any quality.


Just look at the ghettos in the cities where people are forced
to be on welfare.

Nobody is forced to live on welfare. They could get off of their
asses and work to better their lives, but oftentimes they don't.


Ive read your criticisms, i think ive addressed them all, unless
theres anything i missed in which case you can bring them to my
attention. But you hardly seem to be reading what i say anyways
since im getting tired of saying the same things over and over
again.

That is something that I am tiring of as well.

I will leave you with this statement:

I am prepared to experience pain, hardship, inequities, and
outright possible failure. I am willing to live with the
risks that come with economic freedom, because I love the
benefits too much.

I would rather be free and starving, than to be dependent upon,
subservient to, and in servitude of, a collective.

If you wish to live your life as a slave, then so be it. Just don't
attempt to drag me or the rest of the world with you towards your
flawed dream.


RandalFlagg

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Communism [Re: zeronio]
    #1179405 -

****Why don't more countires take them as example?****

because many country's, the US included, put greater value on individual rights. Under socialism you give up these rights to one extent or another


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Communism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1180224 -

RandalFlagg,

You say that the police defends the interests and property of all the people. But thats not really true, because people without property cant exactly have their interests defended now can they? A workers state is hardly slavery, even with a stalinist beaurcracy, everyone has a place to live, food to eat, education..etc
Our polarized counterposed positions just goes to show that class interests are irreconcilable, and while we currently live under the dicatorship of the bourgeosie, you are no doubt very comfortable in the world you live in.

Today, with the counterrevolutionary destruction of the Soviet Union, the world is a much more dangerous place as the imperialists ride roughshed over the third world, determined to assert their right to dominate and exploit. In order to end wars, like the one going on in Iraq right now (and the war is already happening contrary to what you see on the news) the imperialist system must be destroyed from the inside out, and this can only be done by the working class taking power.

You really do have a lack of understanding of history. You claim that imperialist interventions were done in order to counter "communist aggression"? What the fuck are you talking about? How was the election of Salvador Allande in Chile communist aggression? The CIA attempted 10 times to assasinate Castro! And Russia was invaded by imperialist powers after the 1917 revolution! Stalin did his job for the imperialists (the imperialists nonetheless were determined to smash the stalinist workers state) by selling out revolutions in China, Spain...etc with the ideology of "socialism in one country".

You think the imperialist countries have none of their own interests and are concerned with the safety and well being of the world? Then in that case, you either are stupid, or like to obscure the truth.

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