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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Communism [Re: Evolving]
    #1191729 - 01/05/03 05:20 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

hard to keep people from leaving while we have to try to keep people from coming in.

They're having trouble keeping them in now the capitalists have been in charge for 13 years too. Economic refugees from eastern europe are flooding out now the capitalists have turned the place into a south east asian sweatshop.

the western social welfare states are all headed for eventual bankruptcy.

Really? Wonder where all those billions for a war in Iraq are going to come from. Never seems to be any problem finding money when it comes to war...and we've yet to dip into that 171 billion we piss away every year in pork to corporations with billions already in their bank accounts.

You are right in one sense tho - if we keep pissing away our nations wealth to billionaire corporations then we will soon be bankrupt.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Communism [Re: Eric]
    #1191747 - 01/05/03 05:29 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)


I'm glad you brought up the question why welfare, healthcare...etc
exists if the state is really commited to serving the bourgeosie.
Well..... simple answer is that the Russian revolution forced these
western countries to appease the working class, and poor in order to
try to bring class peace at home.

You make it seem as if all progressive policies that have ever
existed owe their creation to the Russian revolution. That
would be like saying Christianity is the root of all religious
beliefs in this world. Progressive politics were not confined to
the Russian revolution movement. In fact, they existed long before
it. Some examples are the 19th century American utopians, like Edward
Bellamy. Or even Charles Dickens, with his tales that dealt with
the plight of the poor.


By maintaining these social services, they also propagate illusions
that they are helping.

You make it seem as if there is a concerted and coordinated effort
to keep the working class and poor "appeased" by throwing them scraps.
These programs were not implemented to "appease" anybody. They were
implemented by elected officials who thought they were the right
thing to do. And, these elected officials were put in office by
people who thought that these programs were needed. They are not
illusions. They are programs put in place because the will of the
public wanted it at the given time. Helping somebody is
not the same as cynically "appeasing" them in order to keep them
quiet and subdued.


If there werent such things as welfare, then you would have a group of
extremely impoverished people with nothing to lose. And people with
nothing to lose, is dangerous to the ruling class.

As I have said a million times; pure capitalism is not desirable.
It needs to be regulated and controlled to a certain extent. But,
pure communism is not desirable either.


These rights were won through class struggle

There is no doubt that people who work need to be protected from
certain things(unsafe working conditions, etc..), and the people
who work can make their voices heard in a democracy.


the bougeosie feels they can finally take
some of these rights away. (i.e you have people like Clinton who vowed
to "end welfare as we know it").

Most of the people in America that are on welfare are there not
because the "bourgeios" keeps them down. Most of them are there
because they had too many kids that they could not support, and
they don't feel like working hard. Why should I have to support
these people?


You say democratic rights matter in America, but if that was true,
then the people like the black panthers wouldnt have been bombed or
infiltrated.

Again, you use a few carefully selected and slanted stories(that
are not indicative of the climate in America AT ALL) to attempt to
prove your points. You were not there. You do not know what
happened. Your information on what did happen is from hopelessly
biased left-wing sources that love to believe in this "evil ruling
class" conspiracy crap.


In capitalist countries, democractic rule will function
on the condition that it does not threaten the interests of the ruling
class,

I will say one more time; In America, people can vote for whoever
they want to vote for. Voting is not income specific. The richest
person and the poorest person both have an equal vote. How can you
claim that "democratic rule" depends on the interest of the
ruling class in capitalist countries, when the poor can vote?.


The attitude of western governments during the cold war,
fearing revolutions at home prove this very point. Good example
(the overthrow of a democraticly elected leader in Chile, because US
oil interests were threatened by nationalization, subsequently
Pinochet was brought to power to terroize workers into submission).

I thought we were done bringing up examples of "imperialist and
"communist" aggression. I thought we had agreed to admit that
there have been mistakes on both sides and leave it at that.

We have already gone over this a million times. Why do you
consistently bring up the evil actions of "imperialists", and
then conveniently ignore when communist governments and leaders
were corrupt, executed millions, suppressed the slightest dissent,
and aggressively took over other governments?

The goal of communism was to establish a controlled economy on a
world-wide scale. Marx and Lenin specifically state that communism
and capitalism can never be reconciled. Capitalists and the
"bourgeois" will always be the enemy, and they must always be fought.
This built-in animosity drove the communists of yore to make every
effort to destroy capitalism, even if it meant engaging in aggressive
actions against a democratically elected government.

The American government had every right to fear the communists. Not
because their ideology might win people over, but because they had
a penchant for infiltrating and taking over anything they could
in order to implement their ideology, even upon unwilling people.


But you seem to think communists like myself read marxist litarature
and suddenly think "hey, lets start a revolution and trick lots of
people into thinking im helping them, then fuck them over later and
take power for myself...brilliant idea!".

No. I think that most, if not all, devout communists actually do
believe that a classless society can be established and maintained,
and that this would be the best thing for mankind.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


Its all about CLASS INTEREST.
Thats what dictate what goes on the press, and many journalists
acknowledge that the whats in the press is dictated by "corporate
interests", which borders along the lines of what I am saying.

You are allowed to immerse yourself in whatever media you want to.
If you want to read communist press, then do it. If you want to be
a member of the communist press, then do it.

Given how cynical the American public is when it comes to "corporate
power", any media that allows itself to be influenced by it will
be the target of much scorn.


the biased one sided media coverage opened my eyes a little
more. I was thinking "why would the media whitewash these events?
there are cops beating people on the street for no reason!"

That was your opinion(which you have shown to be consistently biased).
In my experience, most of the time when a cop beats somebody, they
deserved it. But, there are instances when a cop gets out of line
and breaks the law(cops are human beings and human beings are prone
to making mistakes). If this happens they need to be punished.


You know, in prehistoric times of human existance, there existed
primative communism.

Bullshit. I have had this argument with Alex123. You do not know
if every human being on Earth lived in this primitive egalitarian
idyllic state. It is nothing but conjecture that is brought about
by communist yearning to prove Man's "potential" for equality.


But, you still seem to miss the point about the withering away of the
state. It is impossible for anyone to bring back capitalism after it
has reached that high stage.

In the highest stage of communism, once everyones material needs are
satisfied, they can be free to do other things, and like i said by
this stage it will be physically impossible to re-implement the
system of capitalism, as there is no material basis for that.

You need to tell me how this "post-state" communal setting will
work.

What you need to do is to give me a brief description of how people
will work, how their resources will be taken away from them, and
how resources will be given to the community. I need to know how
you intend your brand of communism to function. Once I have an
idea of what you have in mind, I will be better able to criticize
it.

For example, will everyone work and be paid the same exact salary?
And, they are free to spend it on whatever they want to?

Or, will people be given things(such as food, housing, and health
care), and not be allowed to pick what resources they have in their
lives?

So, in summary:

-Describe how you envision the "post-state" communal economic system
working.

-You have still not answered Question 2a.


RandalFlagg




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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Communism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1191984 - 01/05/03 07:33 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

ruling class in capitalist countries, when the poor can vote?.

This assumes one of the two parties have any interest whatsoever in helping the poor. This is clearly not the case.

If you spent 26 million dollars a day since the birth of christ you still wouldn't have spent as much as the american government (using our tax money) has spent on "defence" since the end of the second world war. "Defence" being a euphemism for "corporate pork to hi-tech industry".

Clearly a similar budget applied to the american people rather than filling the pork barrel would have eliminated poverty decades ago. Instead we still hear morons like Bush insisting "we don't have enough money to give a few single moms their weekly pittance".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 21 years, 21 days
Re: Communism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1192036 - 01/05/03 07:53 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"Defence" being a euphemism for "corporate pork to hi-tech industry". Imagine that money had been spent on the american people.





We do live in a hi-tech age, are you saying all those students going to Technical schools are bad for having the knowledge to make money or those hard working men and women going through business school to become a high rank in the corporate ladder are scum? Some might be but not all. You should understand that technology saves millions of lives everyday, like new antibiotics and the iron lung. Technology can also kill millions, like the nuclear bomb. I wouldn't trust the government as I would some private company making a drug.
Tax money shouldn't be spent on social programs, that's a waste of money and leads to higher taxes. As long as there's a good defense and people can do their business w/out a big hand of government sticking in, I'm fine. There were Federalist, those who want more government, and there's Anti-Federalist, those who want less government. If I go through 4 years of college then 4 yrs of medical school, then 2 yrs residency, and finally 5-10 yrs of training to be a plastic surgeon. All a while I'VE WORK MY ASS OFF LIKE A FUCKING DOG TO GET WHERE I AM. Then government wants to take more of my income only to give it to people who won't work, or welfare, or put into social programs? If you don't like the way the US is treating you, move out.

Quote:

we don't have enough money to give a few single moms their weekly pittance



Aww that brings a tear to my eye, too bad they get enough money as it is, and if they don't get married and have more kids they get MORE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Why should these woman marry when they can have more children being single and recieve more money from the government. The Democrats wanted to make it so the husband could stay home from work to care for the baby. Isn't the mother enough? When's the shit stop. The Government already has enough involvement, before FDR the money ppl made is how much they got, then FDR made social security, oooo what a great idea of investment for the future, and when you're 65 you get that money back. Social Security is a good example of Communism. I think the person whose money it is should decide what they want to do w/ their money and if they want to put it in social security, fine, but the government shouldn't come in and make it required.

If you feel that everyone should be equal at the same level then Communism is for you.
If you want to move ahead and make it big, work your way to the top after a lot of hard work then Capitalism is for you.

Dilauded

Edited by Dilauded (01/05/03 08:07 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Communism [Re: Dilauded]
    #1192046 - 01/05/03 07:56 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

If you don't like the way the US is treating you, move out.

And become a victim of american foreign policy?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 21 years, 21 days
Re: Communism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1192076 - 01/05/03 08:08 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

move to Holland

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Communism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1192202 - 01/05/03 09:18 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

and we've yet to dip into that 171 billion we piss away every year in pork to corporations with billions already in their bank accounts.



Great Britain gives 171 billion pounds away per year on corporate welfare? If your people are doing this Alex, get them to stop.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Communism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1192215 - 01/05/03 09:25 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

They live according to the principle "To each according to his need". I'd say that meant communism was alive and well.

Then clearly you have no idea what Communism is about. There is a whole hell of a lot more to Communism than "to each according to his need".

Either the government cares for them or no-one does. That's reality.

Incorrect. Family members help out, private charities help out, churches help out, private individuals help out. That has been true since long before governments invented welfare and it remains true today.

Because she closed the mines.

Whoa! You mean the English government (a democratically elected parliament, remember) actually seized the private property of people (the owners of the coal mines) and forced them to go elsewhere? And these people did so without protest? Did the owners receive any payment for their property? Who determined what that compensation (if any) was to be?

And then at some later date, a different democratically-elected government (Thatcher's) decided to close the government-owned mines rather than continue to pour taxpayer pounds into unprofitable pits? Did her government at least attempt to sell them back to the folks who owned them in the first place? Were there any takers?

pinky


--------------------

Edited by pinksharkmark (01/05/03 05:06 PM)

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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 21 years, 21 days
Re: Communism [Re: Larrythescaryrex]
    #1193270 - 01/05/03 04:17 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

what is "wrong" with it?
Why didn't we like it?

The little I know of it doesn't sound to bad.
Quote:



Communism destroys Individualism

Dilauded

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Communism [Re: Phred]
    #1193720 - 01/05/03 06:12 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

There is a whole hell of a lot more to Communism than "to each according to his need".

So you wouldn't mind everyone living "to each according to his need"? Poor people too - not just corporate directors? Great!

private charities help out, churches help out, private individuals help out.

Gimme a break. You are living in a dream world.

decided to close the government-owned mines

Yep.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinezeronio
Stranger
Male

Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Communism [Re: Evolving]
    #1194069 - 01/05/03 08:30 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I got an impression that you live in oblivion of freedom.

About showing ID to get a beer... I was in Boston on st.Patricks day and I couldn't get a beer because I forgot my ID at home. I'm 30 and I have a beard.
Quote:

you don't have paid vacations or sick leave,
Yes we do. Do you even know what you're talking about?



You're right - I don't. I got my info from those who wanted to hire me. I would get very high salary but only 5 free days a year. That's a good example of how money doesn't bring you freedom.
Quote:

you have death penalty.
So, should the state support child molesters and serial murders and give them old age pensions?



No! But I heard that many of those who got death penalty would walk free or just go to prison if they could afford a lawyer.

Quote:

Social security? Like they had in the Soviet Union and East Germany? That must explain why they had to try so hard to keep people from leaving while we have to try to keep people from coming in.



I meant social security in democratic countries.
USA is the richest country in the world. You could afford a better public schools, medical care & social security without raising taxes or changing economic system. Just think of how much money will be thrown away for ABM and attack on Iraq, not to mention that it will have a negative effect on your security.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Communism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1194520 - 01/06/03 02:42 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

So you wouldn't mind everyone living "to each according to his need"? Poor people too - not just corporate directors? Great!

Living according to one's needs is not Communism and you know it, Alex. You've been busted... just admit it and move on.

Gimme a break. You are living in a dream world.

Are you claiming that churches and private charities don't help the poor? Not even the most radical Marxist would claim that. Apart from the the subsidies on grain prices to the urban poor of Rome two millennia ago, government programs to assist the poor as a standard policy have been in existence only for a bit less than a century. I repeat, people helped the poor voluntarily long before governments invented the dole, and people help the poor voluntarily today. Anyone who denies this in a public forum leaves himself open to ridicule.

On the closing of the coal mines:

So there were no takers for England's nationalized coal mines? What you are really saying is that as the demand for coal dwindled to almost zero (through no fault of the English government), the government couldn't GIVE their mines away. Clearly it wasn't Thatcher that destroyed the coal industry, it was the advent of less expensive (and less ecologically harmful) forms of energy production. There are currently more people in England working for the BBC than there are working in the coal industry. Admit it, comrade, you would argue that if England had nationalized the buggy whip industry in 1880, and then closed the buggy whip factories in 1920, they would have been responsible for the "destruction" of the buggy whip industry, too.

pinky



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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 11 days
Re: Communism [Re: Phred]
    #1194546 - 01/06/03 02:57 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Pinky, England is currently using more coal per year than it was in 1980.

Obviously we import alot more than we used to.

I believe Thatcher did destroy the Coal industry in this country, along with alot of other things. But hey thats life, we all have lessons to learn. Even old Mags!

Sources:

http://www.gre.ac.uk/~fa03/courses/files/1qt-16-summary.rtf
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200001/cmhansrd/vo010130/text/10130w07.htm


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 11 days
Re: Communism [Re: Phred]
    #1194590 - 01/06/03 03:25 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Post moved to correct thread!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (01/06/03 03:29 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Communism [Re: Phred]
    #1194610 - 01/06/03 03:39 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Living according to one's needs is not Communism

Of course it is. It's a fundamental concept. If you are unaware of that you clearly have no idea.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
- KARL MARX

I repeat, people helped the poor

I'm afraid charity doesn't go very far and it doesn't help everyone. That's why the corporations don't rely on it. Why don't we change corporate welfare to be purely private? I'm sure there are churches and private individuals who will give macdonalds half a million for their advertising...


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Communism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1194611 - 01/06/03 03:39 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Pinky, England is currently using more coal per year than it was in 1980.

Nice one Gaz. A dagger to the heart  :grin:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Communism [Re: Xlea321]
    #1195655 - 01/06/03 05:04 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Of course it is. It's a fundamental concept. If you are unaware of that you clearly have no idea.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."


Sigh. Yes Alex, it is half of one of the several concepts on which Communism depends. Communism involves a lot more than a single concept paraphrased in a condensed soundbite (and only half a sound bite at that), and you know it does. Admit you were in error and move on.

I'm afraid charity doesn't go very far and it doesn't help everyone.

Thank you for finally admitting that your original statement -- "Either the government cares for them or no-one does. That's reality." -- was incorrect.

My point is, if the government would stop taxing the hell out of people, they would have more to give directly to those in need.

pinky


--------------------

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Communism [Re: GazzBut]
    #1195679 - 01/06/03 05:12 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Gazzbut writes:

Pinky, England is currently using more coal per year than it was in 1980.
Obviously we import alot more than we used to.


Do you know that or do you just assume England imports more coal now than it did pre-1985? Out of curiosity, why in the world would a country in which the coal mines are owned by the government need to import coal at all?

I believe Thatcher did destroy the Coal industry in this country...

Since Alex can't answer my question, I'll ask you. Exactly how did Thatcher destroy the coal industry? Don't say "By closing the mines," because that begs the question. Closed mines do not equate to a destroyed industry; they can be re-opened at any time. The coal is still there.

pinky


--------------------

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Communism [Re: Phred]
    #1195767 - 01/06/03 05:54 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Yes Alex, it is half of one of the several concepts on which Communism depends

Pinky, in the real world there is no society on earth that is completly communist or completly capitalist. If corporate directors are living according to the principle "To each according to his need" is this closer to communism or capitalism? Answer the question.

Thank you for finally admitting that your original statement

Don't be childish. I said nothing of the sort. Churches may help 1 in every 10,000. Private individuals may help 1 in every 10,000. That leaves 9,999 who no-one cares for but the government.

My point is, if the government would stop taxing the hell out of people, they would have more to give directly to those in need.

And you, our free market hero who despises welfare, would go round to your local neighbourhoods single mom and give her a cut of your wages every week? Yeah right.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Communism [Re: Phred]
    #1195780 - 01/06/03 05:59 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Closed mines do not equate to a destroyed industry; they can be re-opened at any time. The coal is still there.

You clearly have no idea whatsoever about mining. You cannot simply "re-open" mines that have been closed for years. There are enormous problems to overcome in doing so and it is incredibly expensive. Try and have at least a basic knowledge of a subject before you make such foolish and ignorant statements.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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