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Anonymous

marxism.
    #2300251 - 02/04/04 12:48 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

good lord how can anyone take this stuff seriously?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: marxism. [Re: ]
    #2300373 - 02/04/04 01:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You start early with a belief in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, as you grow up you realize the traditional religions don't make sense so you reject religions that have a concept of God. Unfortunately, you still need something bigger to believe in so you adopt a new religion but you convince yourself that it's a realistic political philosophy and that you can create heaven on earth with the right use of force against your fellow mortals. Your new God is 'the collective' or the state, your new dogma is laid out in the holy texts 'Das Kapital,' 'The Communist Manifesto,' and various other writings of lesser priests who parrot the party line. You have become a devout Marxist. You are willing to have people killed who don't agree with you even though they have not transgressed against you, you rail against competing religions such as Christianity and those who would want to keep their freedom of action and conscience if it goes against your dogma and wishes. You deny that all the history of brutal inhumanity commited in your religion's name was in fact a consequence of your belief system. You are mentally abosrbed into the collective, you are free of personal responsibily, free of the fear of individuality and the psychological nakedness of standing alone, your are safe in the bussom of the dogma of mass-men.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: marxism. [Re: ]
    #2300423 - 02/04/04 01:43 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

It makes sense until you actually try to implement it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: marxism. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2300586 - 02/04/04 02:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, most of Das Kapital is quite cool actually, especially his analysis of the current system.


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Re: marxism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2300594 - 02/04/04 02:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

you're very opinionated on the matter. That lessens the value of your opinion


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Re: marxism. [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2300597 - 02/04/04 02:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I hate the fact that just because communism didn't work out, people totally discredit all of Marx's ideas. He actually made quite a contribution to Sociology, my field of study.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: marxism. [Re: ]
    #2300617 - 02/04/04 02:38 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

good lord how can anyone take this stuff seriously?

Do you take the Randian/neocon/free-market lunacy seriously mush?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: marxism. [Re: ]
    #2300774 - 02/04/04 03:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
you're very opinionated on the matter. That lessens the value of your opinion



Experience and history are great teachers. Care to tally up all the dead who were sacrificed in the name of marxism? Care to compare the economic realities of say Hong Kong to mainland China (before some economic liberation), or East to West Germany? Care to compare emigration (including attempted emigration) and immigration rates of countries with marxist economies vs. those with more economically liberal economies? Car to compare freedom of expression, both of religious and of political opinion in marxist countries vs. the 'western democracies?'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (02/04/04 03:16 PM)


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Re: marxism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2300845 - 02/04/04 03:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Care to explain how that's the same as Marxism? It's not.


If I kill someone in Your name, was it you at fault?


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Re: marxism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2300850 - 02/04/04 03:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Name a marxist country. I think you are getting it confused with state capitalism.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: marxism. [Re: ]
    #2300859 - 02/04/04 03:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

ALWAYS the same excuse. Ever ask yourself why EVERYTIME marxism has been tried, FORCE must be used to implement it on a scale of anything larger than a commune?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: marxism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2300878 - 02/04/04 03:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Of course, that is what Marx said. Do you honestly think the capitalists are going to give their property up without a struggle?


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Re: marxism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2300906 - 02/04/04 03:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

it's not an excuse.
Look at who is using the force


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: marxism. [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2300918 - 02/04/04 03:30 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

To one extent or another almost everyone is a capitalist, even the manual laborer who puts his paycheck in the bank, or saves up for a new pair of boots. Marxism goes against human nature, it is unworkable on a scale of anything larger than a commune (even there, it's value is questionable).

How many people died in the Ukraine from the collectivization of the farms?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: marxism. [Re: ]
    #2300929 - 02/04/04 03:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
Look at who is using the force



The people who try to implement marxism.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: marxism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2300965 - 02/04/04 03:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The current system is not sustainable in the long term, it is also manifestly unjust because (value of goods produced) - (pay of worker) = surplus value appropriated by capitalists .. which leads to massive inequalities.

I'm certainly not a Marxist, I just think it is preferable (in it's pure form) to the current neoliberal capitalism.


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Re: marxism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2300975 - 02/04/04 03:41 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

no, the people trying to secure their comforts at the expense of the workers. those trying to implement MARXISM are largely unheard of- little communes might as well be considered more marxist


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Re: marxism. [Re: Evolving]
    #2300986 - 02/04/04 03:42 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, they obviously think the benefit to the people of a marxist society outweighs the detriment caused by the nescessary violence needed to overthrow the capitalists.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: marxism. [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2301052 - 02/04/04 03:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MetaShroom said:
The current system is not sustainable in the long term,



The current system? Do you mean fiat money, Keynesian economics, the welfare/warfare state and massive unfunded liabilities? I agree, but this is not an argument FOR marxism.

Quote:

it is also manifestly unjust because (value of goods produced) - (pay of worker) = surplus value appropriated by capitalists ...



Tell me, if the 'capitialists' did not save and risk their capital, where would the wealth come from to create factories or places of business where people could earn a living? Tell me, if people did not plan a business and make sure it could be sustainable, how many jobs would be lost or never created? Tell me, if the people who came up with ideas for products or services which workers could produce stopped coming up with these and the workers would be without jobs, what would they do?

Quote:

which leads to massive inequalities.



So what? Would you prefer that everyone lived equally in poverty? Inequalities are inevitable in life and in a dynamic economy.

Quote:

I'm certainly not a Marxist, I just think it is preferable (in it's pure form) to the current neoliberal capitalism.



The current system in the U.S. is infected with mercantilism, corporatism and socialism, even with it's flaws it produces greater material abundance (including food, shelter, clothing and heat) than marxist systems.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: marxism. [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2301089 - 02/04/04 04:03 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I just think it is preferable (in it's pure form) to the current neoliberal capitalism.

It's a good bet. Certainly the poster children of neoliberal capitalism like Argentina and Indonesia have been complete and utter catastrophes.


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