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InvisibleSclorch
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Karl Marx was wrong
    #1786286 - 08/06/03 09:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Religion is NOT the opiate for the masses.

DOGMA is the opiate for the masses.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Sclorch]
    #1786298 - 08/06/03 09:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The dogma of religion


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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Invisiblefjbk47985
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: neutralizer]
    #1786762 - 08/07/03 12:06 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

what is dogma?


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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Sclorch]
    #1786842 - 08/07/03 12:40 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Mmm...mass opiates.


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InvisibleMusicSucks
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Teragon]
    #1786852 - 08/07/03 12:47 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

dogma is the official doctrine of a particular church, like the core beliefs.


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There is no dark side of the moon really... Matter of fact, it's all dark.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Sclorch]
    #1786899 - 08/07/03 01:00 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i thought it was laziness.


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What?


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Sclorch]
    #1786902 - 08/07/03 01:01 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i thought it was laziness. i guess i was wrong  :pill2:  :nut:


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What?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Sclorch]
    #1787138 - 08/07/03 02:16 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Or is it that opiates are the religion of the masses?  :smirk:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: silversoul7]
    #1787199 - 08/07/03 02:51 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Dogma is not necessarily linked to religion.

It is merely a doctrine (articulated or not) that provides people with mental shortcuts (they could be true, but are usually not). The insecure cling to dogma with hopes of an easy life... free from anxiety brought on from doubts derived from heavy thinking. A system that simplifies the chaos of life with arbitrary rules that promise order and with it, predictability. The aforementioned insecurity evolves from the fear of the unknown. This fear can have many origins. Maybe it was always there for Fred. Maybe little Sally developed it after an encounter with a pedophile. Maybe Donald has had it since his parents died in a car wreck when he was 13.

This fear is undoubtedly the ultimate mind killer.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Sclorch]
    #1787257 - 08/07/03 03:18 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Karl Marx was wrong about a lot of things. The nature of religion was one of them.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1787294 - 08/07/03 03:39 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

One thing he was right about, tho: Capitalism is an evil system that must be changed.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: silversoul7]
    #1787296 - 08/07/03 03:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Um, I think every form of government is an evil system that needs to be changed, especially the current American 4th reich.. but that's for politics.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: silversoul7]
    #1787586 - 08/07/03 08:26 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

One thing he was right about, tho: Capitalism is an evil system that must be changed.

Since Laissez-faire Capitalism is the only socio-political system we know of which fully recognizes and protects the inborn rights of every member of society, how does that make it evil?

What part of it must be changed, and on what philosophical grounds do you justify this change?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Phred]
    #1787736 - 08/07/03 10:44 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Since Laissez-faire Capitalism is the only socio-political system we know of which fully recognizes and protects the inborn rights of every member of society, how does that make it evil?



Before I answer this, please back up your statement. I remain unconvinced that it does recognize and protect such rights.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Phred]
    #1787754 - 08/07/03 10:59 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Since Laissez-faire Capitalism is the only socio-political system we know of which fully recognizes and protects the inborn rights of every member of society, how does that make it evil?




It is evil because those rights are imposed has being the only necessary (imposed reality), living your life for simple exploitation. In order to live under capitalism it is necessary to work to earn money in order to live. However due to automation and the high price of machinery as well as the "ownership" of land by an elite few it is not possible to own the tools by which you work. Because of this most workers have been forced to work for someone else. Exploitation is evil

Quote:

What part of it must be changed, and on what philosophical grounds do you justify this change?




The change is not specific and can be justified in one word, evolutionism. On one hand, evolution has been claimed as the scientific rationale for socialism, communism, anarchism, and many other "left-wing" movements. On the other hand,philosophers of the so-called "right-wing" have taken the Darwinian concepts of "struggle" and "survival of the fittest" and used them to justify many harmful systems such as Nazism, racism, imperialism, and laissez-faire capitalism. Marx, Lenin, and Stalin were ardent evolutionists but so were Haeckel, Nietzsche, and Hitler. The first two tenets of secular humanism (as expressed in the famous 1933 Humanist Manifesto)dealt with the assumed evolution of the universe and mankind. Also, any form of atheism or pantheism or occultism must necessarily be based on evolution. Determinism, existentialism, behaviorism, Freudianism, and other such amoral psychological systems are grounded in evolutionary theory. Mankind has already tested many political and economic systems, historically i believe that the success of a system depends on the stage of intellectual and scientific development of the culture. Has we evolve, some values of our culture change, this pushes the old systems to its limits till the point they're no longer compatible, then the rupture occurs. Referring something to change, i would point the aspect of "exploitation" in capitalist systems, which is becoming more incompatible everyday, that's why i don't believe capitalism points to the future and thus must be changed.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: silversoul7]
    #1787756 - 08/07/03 11:00 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think I can guess where this thread should go now....


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: silversoul7]
    #1787758 - 08/07/03 11:01 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

> Capitalism is the only socio-political system we know of which fully recognizes and protects the inborn rights of every member of society

Yep. The native american indians are a perfect example of this in action. Capitalism protected their rights as we stole their land, killed their families, outlawed their religon, and pretended that we were here first.

People are people and some of us are corrupt. It doesn't matter what system governs us, somebody will abuse the system at the expense of others.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: silversoul7]
    #1787762 - 08/07/03 11:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You said capitalism must be changed. I agree, I think there are lots of flaws that need to be fixed. But I think market economy, private property, and dividends from investments are all here to stay. Do you think any of these three principles in capitalism needs to be replaced or removed?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1787772 - 08/07/03 11:09 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Possibly. I'm not sure how exactly change should be brought about, but I know that pure capitalism exploits the working class while making the rich richer, and that needs to change.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Karl Marx was wrong [Re: silversoul7]
    #1787779 - 08/07/03 11:13 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

> I'm not sure how exactly change should be brought about

By making it illegal for companies to lobby or donate to political causes. Politics should be for the good of the people, not for the good of companies at the expense of the people.


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