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InvisibleSclorch
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Artificial Desire
    #2220698 - 01/05/04 03:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

One of the pre-reqs for instituting Marxist Communism is artificial desire (correct me if I'm wrong).

Only heavily industrialized countries can create an artificial desire in its people. Since all communist countries, past and present, is chockful of abject poverty (read: the people are more concerned with scrounging up enough food to eat rather than the latest and greatest designer handbag), then is this yet another reason why Marx's version of Communism has not ever been fully realized?

[EDIT: Subject changed]


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Edited by Sclorch (01/06/04 01:57 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2220792 - 01/05/04 04:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What on earth is "artificial desire"?

And non-"communist" countries arn't full of abject poverty?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221190 - 01/05/04 07:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This might be too academic...

Sorry.


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Anonymous

Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221249 - 01/05/04 07:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

yeah... what's artificial desire?


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: ]
    #2221271 - 01/05/04 08:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

style?


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Anonymous

Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: falcon]
    #2221277 - 01/05/04 08:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

huh?


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: ]
    #2221286 - 01/05/04 08:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps he is referring to 'consumerism?'


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: ]
    #2221295 - 01/05/04 08:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

the value of an object exceeds its utility, in order to sell it you must create a desire for it.

Of course you can argue and rightly that style has utility

I'm ust guessing from context


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: falcon]
    #2221525 - 01/05/04 10:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Style has futility.




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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221586 - 01/05/04 10:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Okay, let me put this a different way...

If artificial desire was removed from our current system, would the economy be effected? How?


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221600 - 01/05/04 10:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How do you define 'artificial desire?' Do you mean desire for goods/services that are not essential for sustenance?


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221712 - 01/05/04 11:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)


Only heavily industrialized countries can create an artificial desire
in its people. Since all communist countries, past and present, is
chockful of abject poverty (read: the people are more concerned with
scrounging up enough food to eat rather than the latest and greatest
designer handbag), then is this yet another reason why Marx's version
of Communism has not ever been fully realized?


You are saying that communist systems suffer from low
productivity. Because there is such low productivity in communist
economies, there is little to go around. Because there are so few
resources to go around, the people worry more about the basic
essentials than unnecessary stuff.

Marx did not want it to be that way. He envisioned a well-oiled
machine magically making all of the things that people needed.
And, when everything was settled and peaceful and the population was
ready for it, governmental institutions would melt away and the
people would live in a cooperative utopia.

So, one of the necessary components for communism to reach its
final stage is that productivity must be high and it must meet
all of the people's needs and wants. This never happened in
a communist country.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221726 - 01/05/04 11:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)


If artificial desire was removed from our current system, would the
economy be effected? How?


Hell yes it would be. Many people would instantly be put out of work
(The people who work in industries that do not deal with sustenance
related products). Our economic output would decline. The amount
of stuff and services we had at our disposal would shrink
considerably.

Anyway, it is not possible to remove artificial desire from our
"system". People want stuff. A lot of the stuff that they want is
stuff that they don't really need. I don't see how it would be
possible to make every single person renounce consumerism and
materialism.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2221842 - 01/06/04 12:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Okay then... you're the person I want to talk to.
This is a rather complex system and I want to change it.

The largest market that is almost completely dependent upon artificial desire is, arguably, the teenage girl. Would it be all that catastrophic if we slowly retarded the artificial desire from this demographic? I mean, MOST of the shit teenage girls buy isn't even made in the US (this means little job loss on the production level). So, we're talking about executives, managers, and retail employees having to find new jobs. I don't see how a slow reduction of these positions is going to hurt the market.

So, what I propose is a mandatory "smart consumer" class that encourages school-age kids to analyze their spending habits. It wouldn't eradicate the artificial desire, but it would reduce it... and it might, hopefully, counteract the manic consumption epidemic.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2221935 - 01/06/04 01:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Getting rid of or reducing 'artificial desire' will still not make marxism work. Marxism fails because it removes incentives for people to produce... 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.' It is a prescription for machinery to go un-repaired, for creators to quit creating, for fields to lie fallow, for the unmotivated to live off the labor of the conscientious. THIS is precisely why the Soviet Union failed, why the original colonists in America nearly starved to death (until they decided to abandoned collectivism and hence increase productivity).

Marxism is a creed of the naive and utopians, embraced with a religious fervor by those seeking to escape the reality of the human condition and the condition of all life on earth. Namely, that living requires effort, an expenditure of energy. It is an economic house of cards, which promises to everyone that they may live at the expense of everyone else. Marxism is the political equivalent of a belief in magic.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Autonomous]
    #2221995 - 01/06/04 02:00 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Getting rid of or reducing 'artificial desire' will still not make marxism work. Marxism fails because it removes incentives for people to produce...

Oh, I know... I was just thinking of artificial desire and it's relation to Marxism.  But since the subject has strayed to only artificial desire... I'm changing the title of this thread. :wink:

Socialism, Russian Communism, Marxism... they all leave the door wide open for mediocrity.  Fuck mediocrity.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Autonomous]
    #2222293 - 01/06/04 04:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Marxism is the political equivalent of a belief in magic.

It takes an awful lot more than "magic" to go from an utterly destroyed feudal state to defeating the most powerful army the world had ever seen within 20 years. A German army that had walked through the capitalist countries of Europe as if they didn't exist. Clearly the economic system in Russia must have worked wonders.

Whether the soviet union had anything to do with marxism is of course another question.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Xlea321]
    #2222844 - 01/06/04 12:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A German army that had walked through the capitalist countries of Europe as if they didn't exist. Clearly the economic system in Russia must have worked wonders.

Is a strong military necessarily linked to a strong economy?

BTW, wasn't the population of Russia just a tad larger?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222869 - 01/06/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Think you'll find they had pretty much the same population as they did in the first world war.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Marxism and Artificial Desire [Re: Sclorch]
    #2222928 - 01/06/04 01:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)


Would it be all that catastrophic if we slowly retarded the
artificial desire from this demographic?


You are advocating the government attempting to change people's
habits? When governments attempt to do that, tyranny ensues.
That is why communism was such am insult to humanity; it attempted
to mold what people thought to serve the state's ends.


I mean, MOST of the shit teenage girls buy isn't even made in the US
(this means little job loss on the production level). So, we're
talking about executives, managers, and retail employees having to
find new jobs. I don't see how a slow reduction of these positions is
going to hurt the market.

These executives, managers, and retail employees would not take
kindly to the government intentionally trying to destroy their
industry.


So, what I propose is a mandatory "smart consumer" class that
encourages school-age kids to analyze their spending habits.

I don't see a problem with promoting financial responsibility.
But, when we attempt to tell people what to do, a lot of problems
can arise.


It wouldn't eradicate the artificial desire, but it would reduce
it... and it might, hopefully, counteract the manic consumption
epidemic.

Do you think people would actually listen? Drugs are illegal and
people still do them. Our government rails against fatty foods,
and people still eat them. If our government railed against
pointless consumerism, the general populace would ignore that too.


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