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Offlineovergrower
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Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 27
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Communism / socialism
    #3485691 - 12/12/04 12:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have dabbled in learning all I can about communist and socialist thought, and what I've found is that it is the most caring and fair of all political ideologies. Look at the old Russia, before the USSR they were as backwards as china(before Mao). Everyone says that the workers were abused and taken advantage of, that they were forced to work against their will, well this was true for about 50000 Russians, but they were prisoners. Now think about this, Should prisoners be aloud to sit in a building eating up Tax payers money? No, instead they worked to pay back their country for their crimes. The USA spends billions of dollars (of our money) each year on CRIMINALS. Now here is my point, I get to watch my mother slowly die because our health insurance will not pay for her surgery and we cant afford it no matter how hard I've tried to scrape up the money.(Thank you bush administration!) Each year tens of thousands of people die and all because they cant afford a simple surgery. Canadas people don't have to worry about this though, their government keeps them alive. Ours, well...we're still in a country we don't belong in losing men each day. THE IRAQIS DONT WANT US THEIR! we didn't find any nuclear missiles,even though we know N Korea and Iran has them..O wait and so do we..how does this make sense? Communism is the ultimate equality, it doesn't take YOUR land away, it takes big businesses land (Microsoft..etc) so the rich don't exploit the poor. All races and woman are completely equal, in America on average woman make $.75 a doll less than men. Now i know that communism would never take in America, and it wouldn't work for us. But socialism would, which is all that I've said above. Well I'm done typing even though i would like to expand and type more but i have work, maybe I'll add more later.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
    #3486008 - 12/12/04 02:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

east Germany, Poland, Czech republic and Hungary all seem the making the transition away form SOCIALISM well. IMO

china has enjoyed more capitalism.

what socialist countries are left? oh yea n. Korea, and Cuba. there are some winners.

is it possible to create genuine socialism in one country on its own??

kofi anna and george soros have some ideas.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Anonymous

Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
    #3486048 - 12/12/04 02:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

communism has killed more people than any other idea in history.  :thumbup:

any system that endeavors to control and direct the productive efforts of every person in society is intrinsically totalitarian.

by what right?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
    #3486311 - 12/12/04 03:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

As a former socialist, I can understand why it would appear to be fair, but ultimately it penalizes the rich regardless of whether they've done anything wrong. This ultimately has the effect of discouraging production, which prevents prosperity. By the way, just because communism mandates that racism and sexism be eradicated does not make it so. There was a film-maker who got in trouble with Castro a while back for making a film documenting racism in Cuba. Since the government's position was that racism didn't exist in Cuba, this could not be allowed. By the way, is there anything inherently wrong with business that you can point out?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineInnerBeing
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Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 413
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #3486439 - 12/12/04 03:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Isn't Sweden socialist? Does anyone care to comment?


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Kiss the ring Bitch!



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3486452 - 12/12/04 03:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, Sweden is socialist. What about it?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3486553 - 12/12/04 04:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

the Swedish are more than willing to embrace capitalism behind the scenes in order to make the whole thing work.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineInnerBeing
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Registered: 12/07/04
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3486743 - 12/12/04 05:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So is Sweden an example of a successful socialist soceity? I have spoken with a few people from Sweden who spoke highly of their country, and its system of welfare, healthcare, and eduacation. This was years ago but it did turn me on to ideas of socialism.


--------------------
Kiss the ring Bitch!



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3486758 - 12/12/04 05:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Depends how you define success. I do not deny that socialism can yield certain benefits, but it does so at a cost to individual liberty. Those of us who prefer to make our own decisions about our own lives are the ones victimized by socialism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleHendostan
Male

Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,441
Re: Communism / socialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #3486770 - 12/12/04 05:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

like most things, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle...socialism is great in that it lets people live a life with a roof over their head, food on the table, and whatever health care they may need, regardless of their financial state. capitalism is great in that it gives people incentive for hard work and motivates people. how can we combine them?


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3486778 - 12/12/04 05:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

InnerBeing said:
So is Sweden an example of a successful socialist soceity? I have spoken with a few people from Sweden who spoke highly of their country, and its system of welfare, healthcare, and eduacation. This was years ago but it did turn me on to ideas of socialism.



FUN FACT: Sweden is not a socialist country in the strictest definition of the word -- it would be equally accurate to say the United States is a capitalist country. Sweden has many socialist tendencies as the United States holds onto some vestiges of capitalism, neither represents the respective system taken to its logical conclusion however. WERE a country to achieve total socialism, it would be a glorious thing for me to watch if I didn't care a bit about human suffering. Socialism simply cannot work; were the conditions for total socialism somehow achieved, it would be a matter of years before whatever standard of living existed in the country pre-socialism absolutely plummeted. The society of such a country would slip slowly into a barbarism the human race has not seen for several hundred years. This would all be a result of the lack of a means of determining prices (the price mechanism in a capitalist system) and therefore allocating goods. The only reason quasi-socialist states like the USSR and Red China survived (however meagerly) as long as they did is because they had an international market from which to base their prices off. Were true Socialism achieved, and were the production and distribution of goods and services actually determined soley by central planners in Moscow/Beijing/etc., you would see the true results of socialism. I wish you all to read this book someday: Socialism, it is truly enlightening


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3486957 - 12/12/04 06:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

very good book. he predicted socialism would not survive....way back in 1920 when socialism was everywhere. he also coined the phrase

Statolatry = the WORSHIP of the state.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Communism / socialism [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3486981 - 12/12/04 06:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ludwig von Mises was an extremely intelligent man. Any of his works are well worth reading. I would also recommend FA Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom".


pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: Phred]
    #3486988 - 12/12/04 06:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"Socialism" is even available online. No need to buy it.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Mises/msSContents.html


pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Communism / socialism [Re: Phred]
    #3486998 - 12/12/04 06:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i second the "road to serfdom" recommendation. essential reading.


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Offlineovergrower
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Registered: 12/09/04
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: ]
    #3487144 - 12/12/04 07:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

east Germany, Poland, Czech republic and Hungary all seem the making the transition away form SOCIALISM well. IMO

china has enjoyed more capitalism.

what socialist countries are left? oh yea n. Korea, and Cuba. there are some winners.

is it possible to create genuine socialism in one country on its own??

kofi anna and george soros have some ideas.



east Germany left communism because the communists left them from US pressure. So those are all the communist countries you know of?heres are the MAJOR communist powers;China,Cuba(yea their winners, they used to be spainish colonies until we helped them gain their independance),Laos,North Korea,Vietnam. All of east Europe used to be communist and right now in Africa their are 13 revolutions in countries taking place. Now these are the communist countries, countless other ones have socialist philosophy's and they are the neutral countries.Pacifists, the ones who wont get nuked to death.

Quote:

communism has killed more people than any other idea in history.

any system that endeavors to control and direct the productive efforts of every person in society is intrinsically totalitarian.

by what right?




Youre completely ignorant..lets see who killed more of their own people than the communists.. The Spanish inquisition, Hitler, Iraq, Napoleon(yea read about that midget), Vietnamese, AMERICANS..yea damn those Russians that killed people that didn't work when they were given a second chance. CONTROL AND DIRECT POWER...you obviously have no idea about your own country comrade.


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Anonymous

Re: Communism / socialism [Re: overgrower]
    #3487207 - 12/12/04 07:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Youre completely ignorant..lets see who killed more of their own people than the communists.. The Spanish inquisition, Hitler, Iraq, Napoleon(yea read about that midget), Vietnamese, AMERICANS..yea damn those Russians that killed people that didn't work when they were given a second chance. CONTROL AND DIRECT POWER...you obviously have no idea about your own country comrade.

between communist china and the USSR, 60 million or so people were killed by totalitarian communist governments during forced famines, purges, indiscriminate killing, etc.

my girlfriend is russian and her entire extended family was born and lived in the soviet union. they moved here only recently - i'm typically the only non-russian speaker at family gatherings. they lived under the soviet union for years and they tell some pretty horrid tales.

any system that endeavors to control and direct the productive activities of the individuals in a society is totalitarian in its conception. without property rights no other rights are possible.


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InvisibleHendostan
Male

Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 4,441
Re: Communism / socialism [Re: ]
    #3487224 - 12/12/04 07:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

the USSR under Stalin was GENOCIDE. and nothing less


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: Hendostan]
    #3487289 - 12/12/04 07:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Hendostan said:
the USSR under Stalin was GENOCIDE. and nothing less




I was not aware that that particular mass murderer targeted any specific race.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Registered: 11/23/02
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Re: Communism / socialism [Re: ]
    #3487367 - 12/12/04 08:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

any system that endeavors to control and direct the productive activities of the individuals in a society is totalitarian in its conception. without property rights no other rights are possible.



So you really believe the right to own land is fundamental to living freely? Sorry, that cracks me up. :rolleyes:


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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