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Insert Consciousness Here
    #11542107 -

At what point in the growth of a fetus within the womb, does it in your opinion suddenly gain consciousness and become a baby?

If a conscious man and a conscious woman concieve a baby is the fetus not already conscious due to the mother's own consciousness? Or would this suggest consciousness to reside somewhere? Does my liver have the same consciousness that I think I does? Would the womb then, also?

If not, then does the fetus develop its own consciousness?


I have no answers to these, just poorly assembled and articulated ideas on the nature of the mind and consciousness I picked up on a heavy acid trip. My mind was using symbols much larger than I've interpreted yet, and hell I doubt those interpretations are worth a dime anyways.

I'm interested in what you think, since we as an organism, have no fucking idea. :smirk:

Edited by Tropism (11/28/09 12:45 PM)

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Tropism]
    #11542165 -

I wouldn't know that but I have read studies that suggest that much of our personality tendencies may be created before birth based on the emotional/chemical/hormonal state of the expectant Mother.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Icelander]
    #11542220 -

I would not be suprised. Sometimes it feels like those real blanket emotions and anxieties, the ones that are so large and significant yet somehow manage to slip behind the conscious mind, those ones seem to stem from waaaaaaaay back. So far back, I can't ever imagine having not felt them.

But still I wonder, at what point does this ball of complex meat and carbon (fetus) stop being just that? Personally, it doesn't feel like we ever do. Feels more like our own consciousness is an illusion. But like I said, I have just poorly assembled and articulated ideas on the nature of the mind and consciousness I picked up on a heavy acid trip.

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Tropism]
    #11542251 -

So were you hoping for a definitive answer. :lol:

We will have to await further discoveries.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Tropism]
    #11542259 -

Its interesting.

In The Holotropic Mind, by Stan Grof, he explains in detail the regressions into Good/Bad Womb states of LSD psychotherapy participants including himself.  He suggests that the ability to relive/experience in detail the pre-birth states inside the Womb is not only real, but an accurate retrieval of substantial factual information concerning the circumstances therein.  For example, participants are able to recall factual information that can later be found to be accurate using detailed birth records.  Such as: experiencing traumas like cigarette smoke or alcohol consumption poisoning the fetus (the participant) inside the womb.

It at least suggests that there is a cataloging of experience very early on in the womb that is part of the psyche's depth.  So much so, it is suggested, that this has a large impact or influence on the developing childhood psychology and adolescent mind, therefore, the foundation of adult behavior.  The experience/damage is both biological and psychological.

Course its easy to see this as nothing more than biological noise tricking one into experiencing something novel...:smirk:

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Icelander]
    #11542271 -

Quote:
So were you hoping for a definitive answer.


Quote:
I'm interested in what you think, since we as an organism, have no fucking idea.


Nay, Captain. I simply want some ideas, since no one has any definitive answers, we might as well speculate no? I'll bet many here know much more about the developmental stages of a fetus than I do, and I'll bet many here have some interesting ideas on the nature of consciousness. I want to hear what they think, but it seems this thread will probably fall to the bottom again.

Man, coming to a philosophy forum for definitive answers... :nonono:

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Tropism]
    #11542276 -

IMO Veritas would qualify as an expert opinion here. She has done extensive research in this area.

Lets see if you can get her to post.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Icelander]
    #11542301 -

Quote:
Course its easy to see this as nothing more than biological noise tricking one into experiencing something novel...


This could always be the case, but the ability to relive/experience pre-birth emotional states does imply a fetus to have consciousness, and I think we can agree that at least in the later stages, there indeed is a conscious mind inside that womb.

Now when is that consciousness inserted? When does that first flame spark? And more importantly, what causes it?

I think asking this question is close to asking "What is consciousness?" and thus, impossible to answer objectively. But hey, we could always use a couple consciousness threads on the main page. :wink:

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Icelander]
    #11542303 -

Quote:
Lets see if you can get her to post.


You first. :lol:

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Tropism]
    #11542320 -

Now when is that consciousness inserted? When does that first flame spark? And more importantly, what causes it?

Well this is the same as asking "how/when did organic life arise from inorganic chemicals"?

Answers may be possible one day.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Icelander]
    #11542334 -

Indeed.

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Tropism]
    #11542353 -

One possibility you may have overlooked is that 'conciousness'(which I use as; ability to organize, remember and associate experiences, of thought, sensations(including emotions into this one) and action(voluntary, within knowledge of consequences(some) and involuntary (without knowledge of them) - may be more of a spectrum. You speak of conciosness as something that you either HAVE or do not HAVE, and thus ask logically where does HAVING begin.

I believe that it is more of a spectrum, it does not really have a beggining point or an ending point.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #11542359 -

well i remember being born but , everything before that is a little fuzzy.


--------------------


My Baby In MCLA


Fuckin Shit

Fuck that stay high

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Tropism]
    #11542382 -

Quote:
...but the ability to relive/experience pre-birth emotional states does imply a fetus to have consciousness...


No...??

That is even more interesting to me...

Hmmm.

What then would be doing the cataloging?
Could consciousness not transform/grow from passive receptor to active creator...??  A spectrum, yes?

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #11542395 -

Quote:
You speak of conciosness as something that you either HAVE or do not HAVE, and thus ask logically where does HAVING begin.

I believe that it is more of a spectrum, it does not really have a beggining point or an ending point.


While I do find the usual definition of consciousness to be a little flaky, and a little shaky, can you find me something that has half-consciousness? It just really does seem that things are either conscious (bird, cat, human) or they're not (rock, water, plant).

Though I dig what you're saying Alpha, and your use of the word consciousness lines up nicer with that ineffable-emotion-idea I have than say the fundamentalist use of the word.

Consciousness as a spectrum, eh?
Consciousness as a function?
Consciousness as a mechanism?
Consciousness as a reaction?
All of the above?
None of the above?
Who fucking knows?
That's the one.

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: TheBalance]
    #11542406 -

Quote:
What then would be doing the cataloging?
Could consciousness not transform/grow from passive receptor to active creator...??  A spectrum, yes?


I'll give you a :shrug: because I don't know, but this is getting interesting.

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Tropism]
    #11542438 -

IIRC Egyptians believed a soul enters a fetus on the 44th day, which just happens to be the exact time the fetus starts forming whichever sex organs it will have as an adult. Also the pineal gland starts forming from cells in the back of the throat at this time.
Peace

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Icelander]
    #11542492 -

I would love to hear from Veritas on this subject! I think that as soon as the fetal brain begins to develop it's basic functions, a conscious identity is formed.  This happens very early in the pregnancy. If anyone is interested, look up Matthew W. Johnson PhD./Johns Hopkins.:peace:

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11542540 -

If you PM her I'm pretty sure she will respond.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Insert Consciousness Here [Re: Icelander]
    #11542628 -

Think I can get an 8" X 10" autographed B&W glossy photo?


--------------------

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