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Offlineurite4594
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Is everything conscious?
    #4584939 - 08/26/05 08:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The dictionary in front of me defines consciousness as " The state of being conscious; aware," and conscious as "having an awareness; able to feel and think."

Do you guys think inatimate objects, at some level, are concious. AFterall, they react to our actions and the reality around them. For instance, if I kick a door, there will be a dent in it. The dent is there because the "door" is consious of my kick. It is aware of the force and reacts to it. I do believe that we are all one, and I guess that does mean everything is conscious. I have also read some interesting salvia reports where immediately after they exhale the trippers consciousness is transported somewhere else. I've heard everything from "suddenly I was my living room window," to "suddenly I was some chic on a game show." Can you guys help me come to a better understanding of this.


--------------------
"The only thing I know is that I know nothing."

"Do not dwell on the past, do not fear the future. Appreciate now, after all, that's all you truly ever have."


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: urite4594]
    #4585123 - 08/26/05 09:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I'm beginning to think more and more that this is true. I think the ability of anything to react to anything else is a subconscious one. Cause and effect is just the interaction of consciousness. As self-aware entities our choices are conscious, but our reactions are still subconscious, because we don't control them (if we did it would be a conscious choice and not a reaction). So i think even at the molecular level, these interactions of subatomic particles and the chemical reactions at a higher level, are subconscious effects of the inanimate matter. The universe is in a sense a giant program, left to run under certain rules. The rules are the reactions, and the reactions are predictable, like our own reactions are predictable when studied. Hence we have science, which is like a study of the universal subconscious.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: moog]
    #4585765 - 08/27/05 12:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Everything in the universe does seem to be conscious on some level. However, not everything is conscious of being conscious. That is the main factor that separates us from animals. And ones degree of self-awareness is what seperates oneself from other human beings.

One can assume the spectrum of consciousness extends beyond our own awareness so that unknown forms of consciousness are aware of us, but we are unaware of them.

The rules are the reactions, and the reactions are predictable, like our own reactions are predictable when studied.

Even on a quantum level the reactions are unpredictable. Any good psychiatrist has more the soul of an artist than a scientist.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: urite4594]
    #4585794 - 08/27/05 12:43 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I thought that when I was high, but when I sobered up I realized it required too many leaps of faith that only marijuana can provide.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: Ravus]
    #4586036 - 08/27/05 01:49 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

im open to the idea but my only question would be what is a thing? i mean what serperates the door from the woodwork around it? what seperates one tile on the floor from another or from the whole floor? it may be that all matter has a degree of conciousness in it but i have trouble understanding where one object begins and another object ends.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: Deviate]
    #4586045 - 08/27/05 01:50 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Matter does not contain consiousness. Its the other way around.


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PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4586131 - 08/27/05 02:20 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

From a mental viewpoint, that is true.

It's interesting, that if you accept solipsism to at least a small degree, both the Tao and all matter containing consciousness can become verifiably true.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: urite4594]
    #4586166 - 08/27/05 02:34 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

urite4594 said:
The dictionary in front of me defines consciousness as " The state of being conscious; aware," and conscious as "having an awareness; able to feel and think."




Considering the definition for both words that you started your post off with....

Quote:


For instance, if I kick a door, there will be a dent in it. The dent is there because the "door" is consious of my kick. It is aware of the force and reacts to it.




How do you then drastically change the definition of those words for this point here? :confused:

If you drink a ton of alcohol and completely black out, passed out on the floor, and I come along with my steel toed boots and kick you repeatedly in the fucking forehead, are you conscious of it? Is there an awareness about you that perceives it? The definition of consciousness says that there must be so that consciousness is present.

You treat a door as if it is conscious, and claim this because it wouldn't have receieved a dent. Basic principles of physics demonstrate the mechanics by which the dent is formed, regardless of whether or not the door is a conscious entity that is aware of its happening.

Quote:


I do believe that we are all one, and I guess that does mean everything is conscious. 




Demonstrate this. In what manner are "we all one", and how does that result in the conclusion that "everything is conscious".

Quote:


Can you guys help me come to a better understanding of this.




The best way to come to a better understanding of this and of any concept or idea is to pursue active, critical thinking and deeply delve into building a proper understanding of it. Changing the definition of consciousness that you originally stated isn't evidence of this happening. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4586181 - 08/27/05 02:38 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

There is one way in which it's possible.

Say everything exists within your mind. You can't verify anything outside of the subjective reality created in your mind, so the entire universe is internal.

This would mean that everything is unified in only existing in your reality; it's all simply part of you and not external to you.

And because it's all part of you, and you are conscious, then these hallucinations and realities are also part of your consciousness; you could say they are consciousness.

Of course, if you deny solipsism then this argument is moot and useless. Just an interesting thought experiment.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: Ravus]
    #4586281 - 08/27/05 03:09 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

what i find even more interesting is the fact that solphism can be seen as true regardless of whether it is true or false. supposing things actually exist outside your mind they still can only be percieved with the mind. there is literally no differenc. from your point of view the entire universe is internal, it can all be seen as not different from yourself. whether the universe exists outside your mind as well is irrelavent in terms of your experience. we are all completely alone in our minds "island universes" as huxely described it. even when we make contact or form what we see as meaningful relationships with other people its all happening within the mind and the meaning is imagined.


Edited by Deviate (08/27/05 03:11 AM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: Deviate]
    #4586558 - 08/27/05 04:45 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

At least 30% of the outer world, as we percieve it, is imaged into our internal mind-galaxy... the rest is subjective. That's the challenge.

edit: I think, the plants consciousness is the last somehow comprehendible consciousness for us. If we look at mountains or rock, the meaning of consciousness is getting shifted, but still there...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (08/27/05 04:52 AM)


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Offlineurite4594
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4586585 - 08/27/05 04:56 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


For instance, if I kick a door, there will be a dent in it. The dent is there because the "door" is consious of my kick. It is aware of the force and reacts to it.




How do you then drastically change the definition of those words for this point here? :confused:

If you drink a ton of alcohol and completely black out, passed out on the floor, and I come along with my steel toed boots and kick you repeatedly in the fucking forehead, are you conscious of it? Is there an awareness about you that perceives it? The definition of consciousness says that there must be so that consciousness is present.

  Sub-consciously I would be very aware of your nice shiny boots, and when I awake from my drunken stupor I'm sure I'd be pretty sore. You seem to say that you could kick me in the face and there be no reaction. While passed out you would be affecting my sub-conscious. Chemicals from my brain would pass through by blood affecting me in many ways.Perhaps I am not fully "aware"of it, but I am most certainly percieving it.

You treat a door as if it is conscious, and claim this because it wouldn't have receieved a dent. Basic principles of physics demonstrate the mechanics by which the dent is formed, regardless of whether or not the door is a conscious entity that is aware of its happening.

First off, you assume that you must be an "entity", or living thing,to be conscious.In my eyes,to react to the reality around you is to be conscious.

Quote:


I do believe that we are all one, and I guess that does mean everything is conscious. 




Demonstrate this. In what manner are "we all one", and how does that result in the conclusion that "everything is conscious".


I guess what I'm trying to say  is that the sub conscious connects us all. It's as if when one is fully conscious and aware,one is just a thread, but when one slips into the sub conscious world you join all of the other threads to make a grand ol rug.


--------------------
"The only thing I know is that I know nothing."

"Do not dwell on the past, do not fear the future. Appreciate now, after all, that's all you truly ever have."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: Ravus]
    #4586600 - 08/27/05 05:06 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
There is one way in which it's possible.




True, in that way, it is possible. :thumbup:

I attempted a bunch of related thoughts in this space in order to provoke more thought on this, but it is simply an area in which thought almost seems to prevent one from being aware of what it is that I wanted to think about. :nut: Stuff concerning Zen and the limitations of our perspective and the like..... I cannot convey the inexpressible, damn it! :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineShampioenier
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We are just holograms of the Universe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4586634 - 08/27/05 05:30 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Your saying the universe is internal; yeah that's true, but think about it this way like Li Hongzhi the guy from the Falun gong 'cult'(-ivation school).
He states that we are just Universes in miniature, much like a hologram. The Universe must also exist elsewhere, because if it didn't, i.e objectively outside the mind, then well, your mind wouldn't have anything to reflect on (or off, for that matter...). Its just a case of relativity, and its interesting to note that we think we reflect on matters, when in fact we reflect off them. Its just we are so dumb and give ourselves too much credit, is all. Well thats my aggrandised fabulous opinion in any event. but you can say the meaning is imagined; i.e given visual form, that's not a bad thing is it. And its not all imagined because the actions within the relationships have external consequences in the objective world, like getting your beaartch pregnant, for instance.


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OfflineShampioenier
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Reaction is not a sign of consciousness- to the contrary!!! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #4586642 - 08/27/05 05:40 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

How could you say that reacting is a sign of consciousness- being reactive is having insufficient quantities of consciousness; it means you can't stop and think about what you're doing; can that door stop and think and say, hey wait I'm not going to splinter up and break, you know, think about how its going to react? I do believe however in some intrinsic way everything is conscious, the cosmos is conscious; but not in the ordinary sense of human beings; it is conscious in that the truth of all that happens sort of is recorded 'in itself', it does not have to be perceived because is already known(to itself) in being..., this consciousness is replete and beyond our normal understanding. But in the sense that the door is conscious because it reacts to stimuli. If something does not react does this mean it is not conscious; look at Zen master Xu Yun- this is a true story; Master Empty cloud; during the communist revolution, the soldiers ransacked his Zen temple having heard legends of legendary gold and treasure; they beat the old geaser for about six hours, of course he just lay there. He didn't react at all. Of course his reaction may be that he decided not to react, which is a reaction. But in the physical sense the universe is not conscious as I said in the ordinary sense. the truth of what it is exists in itself, it is already known without having to go through the process of perception; sort of like All Knowing without having to think about it kind of thing. But master xu yun didn't really react, because he was busy practicing zazen like usual; the art of doing absolutely fuck all; that they where happening to be there kicking him was of no concern. but that is not to say because he did not react that he was unconscious; hardly!


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: Reaction is not a sign of consciousness- to the contrary!!! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #4586647 - 08/27/05 05:44 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

although I forgot to mention they they did keep on beating him until he became unconscious. but he did survive the attack.


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Offlineurite4594
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Re: Reaction is not a sign of consciousness- to the contrary!!! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #4586738 - 08/27/05 07:54 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It is foolish to say that human consciousness is "normal" consciousness. In my eyes man is at a primitive state of consciousness. OUr communication (language) is extremely infantile and cannot communicate ideas fully. We are beings that are not capable of knowing, merely understanding.

Being reactive is insufficient signs of consciousness,but consciousness none the less.


--------------------
"The only thing I know is that I know nothing."

"Do not dwell on the past, do not fear the future. Appreciate now, after all, that's all you truly ever have."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Reaction is not a sign of consciousness- to the contrary!!! [Re: urite4594]
    #4586744 - 08/27/05 07:59 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

There is a difference between consciousness itself and that which one is conscious of (or is there? :smirk:). I simply see one state known as consciousness and various levels and degrees of what one is conscious of, or perhaps various intensities of consciousness....

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Is everything conscious? [Re: urite4594]
    #4586769 - 08/27/05 08:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, I would say everything is conscious to an extent. I think consciousness really is just another inherent property of matter and is not all that rare. However, awareness to the level and complexity of humans may be another story; as we are the culmination of the consciousness and awareness of our smaller parts (cells, organs, etc...)

And this all follows fractal-like, ordered chaos logic.

This is pure speculation, though... gut instinct, if you will.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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