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Offlinequemo
dontknowitall

Registered: 12/19/02
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After death
    #1153577 - 12/19/02 05:04 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

hello my friends,

for a liittle while now i've been contemplating about a life after death. Somehow the realisation that ALL that  I am could just not exist at one point anymore scares me a little bit. I know of course i wouldn't realise it as being such but perhaps i love life and all that surrounds us too damn much to be parted of it at some point in time. Now i have to say i'm quite the over-analysing persona like many here and usually on a very scientific basis. But like Einstein said tough, imagination brings us everywhere and certainly on spiritual issues i try to be very criticising towards my own ideas tough but not by being purely scientific. So on this issue i have  a bit of a controversy:

Spiritually i would say when looking at the love that must have created this beautiful nature, it somehow feels (and i know this is very debatable choice of words :wink: ) logical that there is continuum in ones lifeforce/learning process, merely altered by death

Scientifically i would say nature takes care ot its own preservation by one big overruling law: survival of the fittest. When we get weak, we get either destroyed or die. Why in hell would there be any, ANY reason that does not help nature preserve itself be there for ones life to continue after his or her death?? We humans, really aren't that important as we like to think we are on this planet or on an even bigger level IMO...

Any personal views on this one??? I don't often find my scientific and my spiritual approach to life 'stuff' this controversial and i know probably  a lot of you ppl have been cracking on this baby for a longer period of time. So please, ENLIGHTEN ME :grin:

excuse my enlish by the way, i'm dutch so its hard.... 


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1153609 - 12/19/02 05:24 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I see not a single reason to believe that "we" continue after death other than fantasy stories, but the bottom line is: NO ONE KNOWS. There are no experts to enlighten you.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1153627 - 12/19/02 05:33 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I agree interely with you. The problem is you're mixing your supernatural view of life (and weather is exists after death)using a scientific and natural explanation. Science denies or/and don't support any supernatural evidence. You have two options, or you believe it or not.
A good question you arise: why we must think we're so important anyway ? Makes you think about life as a whole doesn't it ?
Some believe there are greater plans for us though....

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: After death [Re: MAIA]
    #1153733 - 12/19/02 06:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"supernatural evidence"

Kind of an oxymoron. There really isn't any evidence that life continues in any way after death, but there's no evidence against it. Personally, I'd say it's fairly stupid to believe either with any certainty.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: After death [Re: Phluck]
    #1153850 - 12/19/02 06:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Actually there is philosophical evidence for the existence of an afterlife. I will post it sometime in the future.

Cheers,


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Offlinequemo
dontknowitall

Registered: 12/19/02
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Re: After death [Re: ]
    #1153992 - 12/19/02 07:45 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

hmmmm, i was hoping someone could gimme a simple 'yes' or 'no' thats all..... :wink:

no, i don't expect to get any answers with any certitude, but i would like to get myself some kind of picture on this one, because well frankly somehow untill now it never bothered me that much.......

but referring to my previous post where i made a comment about the 'drive' behind nature that not only creates 'all' BUT therefor creates 'nothing but' . So i guess personally i'm putting another question forward here:

why SHOULD there be an afterlife??? (from nature's point of view)

what purpose could it have for nature's sake???
If you'd guess 'it' wanted us to witness its beauty you somewhat indirectly would say there exists something like an omni-consciousness. Not a consciousness that is like an all-surrounding energy, but a consciousness that MAKES decisions, almost in a humanoid-kinda-way. Wouldn't that make the whole evolutiontheory bullocks,because action is not reaction anymore because there would exist something like a divine intervention??

These are not my personal beliefs tough its just an example, but like i said before : why SHOULD there be an afterlife??

I have to admit that the fact that i would realllyy realllyy realllyyy be able to find some, almost scientific, grounds on this issue that make it plausible there'd be an afterlife. So i know there's a subjective danger on my part here, but i hope by knowing that i enable myself to be as objective as possible here.....

thanks for all the responds so far by the way!!! and i would really like to see that material mr.mushrooms :smile:
 


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1154053 - 12/19/02 08:08 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

why SHOULD there be an afterlife??? (from nature's point of view)




There isn't, everything in nature is born, it lives and then dies. Your answer is outside the scope of nature.
You should rephrase it to:
"why shouldn't there be an afterlife??? (from nature's point of view)"

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: After death [Re: ]
    #1154068 - 12/19/02 08:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Actually there is philosophical evidence for the existence of an afterlife. I will post it sometime in the future.

Can't wait to hear this one....


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinequemo
dontknowitall

Registered: 12/19/02
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Re: After death [Re: MAIA]
    #1154185 - 12/19/02 08:45 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

interesting phrase: outside the scope of nature. Personally i always reasoned my questions within nature, i guess i see as an infinite platform set by definite rules, yet not all known to mankind. Just to get a grip of what lies outside the scope of nature, could you gimme some more examples??? In order to make me understand why a question like : why shouldN'T there be an afterlife could be asked???


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1154315 - 12/19/02 09:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I cannot give you a yes or no, because most things are not black and white. I think when over analysing it you were missing the already existing beleive that suffering is desire. Most people are scared of death and prefer not to think about it. You are also probably a lot more scared than you think now. Just take a high dose trip of acid or mushrooms, that will similuate death and rebirth. Of course I don't know about real death but is what makes it so mysterious. I beleive in reincarnation because of what I have read and experienced. Timothy Leary describes in his eightfold model of consiousness that when experiencing the seventh circuis, the nervous system begins to receive signals from within each individual neuron from the RNA-DNA dialogue. At this level people have recorded past life experiences, reincarnation e.t.c. "That these adepts were recording something real is indicated by the fact that many of them (especially Hindu and Sufis) gave marvelously accurately poetic vistas of evolution 1,000 or 2,000 years before Darwin, and foresaw Superhumanity before Nietzsche." He says consiousness probably precedes this level. Ayways, I have got a good glimpse of these experiences on a high dose of LSD. It is important to note that DNA does not care for human relations and about your little ego. According to the model it creates humans to do work for it, they become robot slaves to perpetuate the species. If this were true and reincarnation was true, remember that in your present state of consiousness or ego intelligence would not remember past life memories, it is not intelligent enough. In otherwords if I came back in my next life even still more evolved, I still might not beleive in reincarnation and I definately wouldn't remember existing before that life, but my DNA would know.


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OfflineTannis
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Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1154415 - 12/19/02 09:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, I agree with Swami when he says, no one really knows.....

I personally have struggled with this question myself.......I mean.....you don't really know until it happens! Death and an after life I mean.......

I choose........that's right choose to believe in God and so an after life.......its a choice based on teaching I received and on a personal choice.......

I may be right or wrong but believing makes me a better person than I would be if I just lived selfishly and didn't care about anyone other than myself. Believing in a God holds me accountable so that I think before I act and don't do the things that would harm someone else.

I'm sure that there are many people who don't believe in God and who consciously make attempts not to hurt others. I'm not saying that you have to believe in a god or an after life to be caring, but I do wonder.......why?

What I mean is.......if there is no god and no accountability........why not be completly self centered?
If nothing matters then nothing matters.

Still I have only my belief.......but no proof.......


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1154659 - 12/19/02 10:51 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"Spiritually i would say when looking at the love that must have created this beautiful nature, it somehow feels (and i know this is very debatable choice of words ) logical that there is continuum in ones lifeforce/learning process, merely altered by death"

and birth..... the energy that creates you exists before and after your body does.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1154722 - 12/19/02 11:15 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

why shouldN'T there be an afterlife could be asked???




I've already answered the question, we shouldN'T because in nature we born, live and die. That's the only evidence.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: After death [Re: Tannis]
    #1154753 - 12/19/02 11:24 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

What I mean is.......if there is no god and no accountability........why not be completly self centered?
If nothing matters then nothing matters.




Regardless of anyones faith or belief - Because we are human and have feelings, depending on the feelings you believe and cultivate, your actions are their reflection and you are always accountable of your own actions.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


Edited by MAIA (12/19/02 11:27 AM)


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Offlinequemo
dontknowitall

Registered: 12/19/02
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Re: After death [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1154815 - 12/19/02 11:41 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"Just take a high dose trip of acid or mushrooms, that will ....."

please be careful with giving this kind of advice to random ppl. Not all minds are stable enough to comprehend such experiences, and although you may want to help your fellow person it could harm such a mind severely....



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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1154979 - 12/19/02 12:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"Just take a high dose trip of acid or mushrooms, that will ....."

please be careful with giving this kind of advice to random ppl. Not all minds are stable enough to comprehend such experiences, and although you may want to help your fellow person it could harm such a mind severely....

Most minds aren't stable enough and it will shatter such minds. And nobody has to listen to me, infact I would prefer people think for themselves, definately don't listen to me.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: After death [Re: Tannis]
    #1155140 - 12/19/02 01:38 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

You don't really know until it happens! Death and an after life I mean

If death is indeed the end, then you WON'T know it when it happens.  You CAN'T know when it happens, nor that death was the end, because your mind would no longer capable of realizing ANYTHING.

I choose........that's right choose to believe in God

I'm sure that there are many people who don't believe in God and who consciously make attempts not to hurt others.

I do wonder.......why?


If you don't think it's in people's nature to be caring, then why did you CHOOSE (that's right, choose) to believe in God in the first place???  You implied that you CHOSE God because you CHOSE to be a good person!  It was in your nature to begin with!!!  :laugh:  Edit:...in other words, you really DIDN'T need God to be a good person.  You were already one.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (12/19/02 01:41 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: After death [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1155239 - 12/19/02 02:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

What I mean is.......if there is no god and no accountability........why not be completly self centered? If nothing matters then nothing matters.

I agree with GoBlue on this. While I sometimes "play hard" on these boards, I mean no one any harm and consider myself a moral person, yet do not feel that I will be judged by a Supreme Being at the end; nor in any heaven or hell.

Why do I not choose to take advantage of people? Cannot say with any certitude except to say it is in my "nature" or that it "feels right".



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: After death [Re: quemo]
    #1155882 - 12/19/02 06:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

You're welcome! :smile:

As far as a direct 'yes' or 'no' answer is concerned I'm afraid nothing is that simple.  Especially when it comes to topics like these.

There is evidence but it cannot be scientific evidence because science cannot explore the supranatural or the immaterial.  Where science fails (by its constrictive nature) philosophy succeeds.  Science is a limited paradigm.  It is ill equipped to handle things that are outside its purview.

Please do not hope that I will post the philosophical evidence soon.  I have a few things to wrap up first.  The most important item on my plate right now is finishing The Truth thread and I started that several months ago.  Philosophical inquiry is a laborious exercise.  It takes time, patience, and a good deal of skill to come up with a cogent, tightly reasoned argument.

You speak English well for a Dutchman! :smile:

Welcome to SPS and the Shroomery!

Cheers,


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OfflineTannis
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Re: After death [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1163720 - 12/23/02 04:39 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think its destiny........I was raised in a home where God was taught.......I think there is some design in this.
I believe I was made or created to serve people but that is like a piece of God being put in me from the beginning. Then I thing that God "calls" to that part and I believe in Him without any real proof.


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