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Offlinenomez_
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Registered: 05/14/02
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ego death... a thing to strive for?
    #633747 - 05/16/02 11:44 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ive been reading some stuff on jungian theory recently and it got me thinking. Keep in mind, I just started reading this stuff.

Is the death of the ego something we should strive for? The death of the 'who' we think we are? I think we should just attempt to transend the ego; learn to look at it objectivly and see it as something plyable, something we can alter and manipulate. Weve built up our own personal egos and we need to learn to see what is good in them and what is bad. Some of the things in our ego may not be these negative personifications of ourselves we tend to think of them as; they may be essential, or at least benifitial, to our existance and our evolution, on both a personal and humanitary level.

When I say transend I usually think of that philosophy of killing your parents, then killing your teacher, then killing your god (I think thats buddhism but I could very well be wrong). From what I understand/believe, we must learn from them and then grow past them; Gain their level of understanding and go farther.

So, in terms of the ego, I dont believe its a matter of killing the ego, just transending it and learning to use it along the best evolutionary path (whatever the hell that may be :P ).

of course thats just my opinion, i could be wrong


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Just a Smart Monkey


Edited by nomez_ (05/16/02 11:45 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: nomez_]
    #633748 - 05/16/02 11:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I basically agree... the ego is a nautural and basic part of our human existance. While it can be the source of a lot of evil, I don't think we would want to rid ourselves of it, just control it and learn to work with it. I personally think people that go on about ego death are having an extreme reaction.'

Or something like that anyway... I'm just the village idiot, don't expect too much from me.


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Offlinenomez_
The Rev.

Registered: 05/14/02
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: Anonymous]
    #633753 - 05/17/02 12:06 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Of course it could be that I in some way have a misinterpretation of what some call 'ego death'. Perhaps people are talking about 'ego death' and what they may mean is ego transendance.
Maybe 'ego death' is the complete internalization of the psyche... meaning there is only the real world and the internal world, without the part of the psyche trying to deal with the real world. And as such they see the part of the mind that is the ego (or the lack there of) and learn its influence and relevance. Further, they do not try or even want to destroy it, only learn about it and how to manipulate it.

once again... those just my thoughts, i could be wrong

... kinda sounds like i answered my own question by revealing my own ignorance =]


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Just a Smart Monkey


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: nomez_]
    #633767 - 05/17/02 01:00 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, I just got finished writing in my journal about how I can't regret my religious upbringing because it has been the path that led me to where I am now. How can I question a part of my past if I'm comfortable with who I am?

Your post is just what I was trying to grasp. Nomez you are a smart monkey.

hongomon


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OfflineTwistedRedneck
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: hongomon]
    #633872 - 05/17/02 05:05 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

being "comfortable" is not always a good thing. Personally, i think one should never be satisfied with who they are... u can always be better/go further imo


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: TwistedRedneck]
    #634147 - 05/17/02 10:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Good point. I'd say I'm comfortable with who I am, but if I haven't improved on myself come tomorrow or next year, that would not be a good thing.

Part of what makes me comfortable with who I am is the feeling that I'm headed in a good direction.

peace,
hongomon


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InvisibleEffedS
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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: nomez_]
    #634759 - 05/17/02 08:16 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: Effed]
    #635411 - 05/18/02 01:40 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, I just got finished writing in my journal about how I can't regret my religious upbringing because it has been the path that led me to where I am now.

I've often thought this.
Now... if you have children, how will you raise them? The same way you were raised, as that has made you who you are (assuming determinism)? Or would you raise them some other way- if so, what would it be?


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: nomez_]
    #635929 - 05/19/02 01:38 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)



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Offlinenomez_
The Rev.

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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: Sclorch]
    #635930 - 05/19/02 01:39 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:


Also it is said that a total ego death is impossible by a westerner.




Well, I would tend to agree that 'westerners' would achieve it less. But there can be very spiritual people anywhere. Where ever you are, you just have to find the spirituality. With all our communication we can easily learn what it is to be spiritual of other cultures.

Thats all drugs tend to be anymore; a view of something that various 'eastern' belief systems achieve through other means. I believe that with enough wisdom about the 'ego' and whatever else we may describe it as; we can kill, transend or do whatever to it.

Somehow my real problem with the ego death phrase is; its just too vague. It is a statement using psychological jargon that represents something that could be described as less psychological than spiritual.

I would tend to believe that people that use the term probably have different personal defintions of 'ego death'; whether or not it is spiritual or psychological. Both are relating to something very personal to each individual. So no two useages of the word would represent the experience (or lack there of) with their ego.

Once again, I sound like a blind man ranting and raving about color of the sky.


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Just a Smart Monkey


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Offlinenomez_
The Rev.

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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: Middleman]
    #635932 - 05/19/02 01:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

by the way... good post...

.o0O(a link to the information that i can rant about and have never taken the time to learn)

truely i seem more a monkey than a 'smart monkey' sometimes


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Just a Smart Monkey


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: Sclorch]
    #636277 - 05/19/02 10:43 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Sclorch:
"I've often thought this.
Now... if you have children, how will you raise them? The same way you were raised, as that has made you who you are (assuming determinism)? Or would you raise them some other way- if so, what would it be?"

You got me racking my brain, and one word keeps popping up--vasectomy.

Other than that--? What do you think?

hongomon


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: hongomon]
    #636517 - 05/19/02 02:52 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I figured you'd try to be witty...
Go ahead, release all that pent up anger on me... it will probably help nurture your ego. Maybe one day your ego will be large enough to run for president. Then you can force mandatory sterilization legislation through congress and you won't have to worry about intelligent adversaries anymore.


::EDIT::
Miscommunication breeds amusing shit sometimes...
This being one of those times.
Sorry for getting on your case for my misperception of your statement...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Edited by Sclorch (05/19/02 10:56 PM)


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: Sclorch]
    #636672 - 05/19/02 05:16 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Sclorch, you misunderstood. I was referring to my own vasectomy. I see my sister raise her two kids and for whatever peace of mind I have about my own situation, I'm pretty sure I would bung up parenting in a bad way.

Seriously, your question is a good one. I was pretty mean in that other thread. Sorry.

hongomon


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Anonymous

Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: Sclorch]
    #636895 - 05/19/02 08:42 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Sclorch, you asked,
Now... if you have children, how will you raise them? The same way you were raised, as that has made you who you are (assuming determinism)? Or would you raise them some other way- if so, what would it be?

Being a father of two, I can tell you what I am attempting to do. I try to instill in my children the lessons I've learned from the mistakes I have made and the mistakes my parents have made. I can build upon the good things I have received from my ancestors and do what I can to improve upon them while making a conscious effort to teach my children differently from what I consider to be bad examples/ideas that I received.

We are a product of our history it is true, but we also make our history. The degree of determinism is diminished by our willingness to exercise our free will. If you believe in determinism you will be subject to it, if you believe that you have a choice, you will be able to forge your own way. There is ample evidence of this to be gathered by observing the lives of other people who don't blame externalities for their lot in life. So, I try to instill in my children a sense of responsibility for their own actions and their own thoughts (as I was raised). This is what has brought me very far (from years of Catholic school indoctrination) and I trust will bring my children further, faster than I because they will be able to build upon a better foundation.

Was it Newton who said he accomplished what he did because he stood on the shoulder of giants? I may not be a giant, but my children will be able to stand on my shoulders and I am also trying to build the best damn set of steps any kids could ever hope for...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: ]
    #637005 - 05/19/02 11:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

evolving-
Good response. I really like this:
people who don't blame externalities for their lot in life..

I never really thought about this being one of the reasons people subscribe to determinism. Now I wonder how I never made that connection. Makes perfect sense now... I have a hard time (really) blaming others for things that happen to me. I'm probably too hard on myself sometimes...
I went through that whole blame game thing for only a short time in middle school, then I realized that there was much that I did have control over and I could change that. Though some things are not our fault, but that doesn't mean that everything that happens to us is someone else's fault. I wonder where exactly this "blame everything on others" outlook stems from.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: nomez_]
    #638204 - 05/20/02 06:40 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If you read Jung's commentary to The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation, you'll come to discover that Jung did not recognize a 'superconscious' state. The ultimate direction for the human ego was re-immersion in the collective unconscious. For Jung, an ego can be "depotentiated" or separated from its sense of embodiedness, but for Jung, the ego loses consciousness to the extent that it 'transcends' consciousness. Stan Groff and Ken Wilber are two contemporary writers who recognize the states called psychedelic/samadhis/jhanas by different traditions. Jung would have disapproved of psychedelics according to the late M.L. von Franz, a former student of Jung's. She commented on mescaline in her work 'Psychotherapy.'

I've recently read Huxley's 'The Perennial Philosophy,' which I highly recommend. He states repeatedly that dissolution of the ego needs to be accompanied by the complementary movement of allowing the Divine to Indwell the psyche recently swept clean of all the passions and attachments that make up the mundane ego. As the Bible points out, one who has been cleansed of 'devils' needs to be filled with Holy Consciousness [archaically: "Spirit"], lest 7 more devils take up residence in the recently swept out psyche [soul]. Same Wisdom. The confusion arises when Westerners read some Buddhist thought, and become convinced that Voidness, or Nothingness is 'nothing,' when in fact it means 'no thing,' and suggests Something akin to the Western Gnostic 'Plenum Void' - a very substantial Reality. St. Paul says 'I must decrease, He must increase.' Again, the Logos must be allowed into the psyche - the ego decreases, the Logos/Christ increases. This is a 2-part movement in spiritual development in every noteworthy or historical tradition. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: ego death... a thing to strive for? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #638405 - 05/20/02 09:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting Markos...
Very similar to Descartes' method of doubt [ego death] followed by a reconstruction [filled with logos/christ; nothing; holy consciousness].


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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