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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Icelander]
    #11452185 -

You find your proof against me if you like Ice, just enjoy yourself :peace:


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452205 -

This is your typical response to being called on being dishonest. It's the response of all those who can't own their inconsistencies.  In other words neurotic behavior.:shrug:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452206 -

I think there is an underlying message here that is really quite beautiful.  Although we as individuals may come and go, we are part of something much much bigger that will go on far beyond our time of being.  This alleviates death anxiety, and also fills us with a sense of purpose (if my being is temporary, but I am part of something bigger that will go on beyond me, then shouldn't I identify with this larger thing I am a part of, and act in favor of positive change throughout it?). 

As far as rational proof that this great thing we are a part of is infinite, ultimately it cannot be proven.  We have this concept that energy (which makes up everything), can never be created or destroyed.  It follows that we may ask if energy cannot be created, than was it ever created?  And if energy cannot be destroyed, will it ever be destroyed?  This leads to the concept that this energy has always been and will always be.  However, one can make all kinds of assumptions about external forces that may create energy or destroy energy, but based upon pure empirical evidence, such forces do not exist.


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Smitington]
    #11452220 -

nice:thumbup: And for me you are correct, it does relieve a little of the anxiety of being temporary. But not at the expense of being honest about what I can know.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/14/09 07:47 AM)

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452294 -

Chronic777 said:
The only reason terms like 'Ultimate Reality' come into play is to convey that its not a temporary reality but a permanent stable reality that is eternal




Evidence, reason, logic. None of these are present when you are making these blind assertions. Just because someone makes up an abstract concept, does not mean it actually refers to an existent.

Quote:
Its not about beleiving for or against, as beleif adds distortion to what is,  reality is here all the time, it can't really be beleived in




So its not about believing and we are just to take your word on what 'reality' is on 'faith' and follow your words and direction towards your mystical 'experience' of reality. Right...:rolleyes:

Quote:
Much like you can't 'beleive' in your self, you simply are here
You see i don't beleive in it, whereas it seems a few hold rigid beleif against it, rather than being open to investigating the matter :shrug:




Exactly what we are doing is investigating the matter, but you posit everything you say to be axiomatic as if it does not require reason, logic or evidence to be true, only your say so.

Quote:
Its all about approaching the matter, approaching all matter, with a mind of equanimity & evaluating the true fundamental nature of things




Its a pity you cannot do this as to 'investigate' a matter one needs to rely on reason, logic and evidence, something you have been sorely lacking in this entire thread. The only conclusion one can draw is that you want others to take your word on it without evidence, which is of course an appeal to your own experience and a request for others just to take what you say on faith.

Quote:
Its not about getting caught up in beleif, no for or against, just observation
Its very very logical, imo




How do you 'observe' infinity? I'm sure you said earlier in the thread that it cannot be 'observed' and indeed that you have not observed it. :shrug:

Quote:
I don't beleive in the Infinite, i've just seen it in me, now i see it everywhere else
I don't mean to disturb anyone with these statements

:heart:


You are not disturbing anyone with you statements. You obviously do 'believe' in infinity (blindly I might add) otherwise you would not try to assert it as a fact without proof.

Edited by RationalEgo (11/14/09 08:28 AM)

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Smitington]
    #11452370 -

Nice one Smitty...

This whole thing im talking about is about being honest with yourself
Honestly looking at the facts of existence

'This leads to the concept that this energy has always been and will always be'

And who else am i but that energy itself?
This is honest logical looking, i don't see how its dishonest


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452381 -

Chronic777 said:
Nice one Smitty...

This whole thing im talking about is about being honest with yourself
Honestly looking at the facts of existence




But you have dishonestly evaded the requirement of presenting facts to back up your blind assertions.

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11452403 -

The facts are self evidential

Energy is never created nor destroyed, it is all there is, all there ever will be
So i am that energy

Its not a mere beleif, its an investigation of the observer
Your asking me to show you the observer, when you are the observer
Each one must investigate it themselves


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452416 -

Let me ask you this. Is energy by itself in it's totality aware or conscious and if so how do you know?

Edited by Icelander (11/14/09 09:35 AM)

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Icelander]
    #11452437 -

This thread is more just about that this energy is the only thing that exists and arriving at that seeing through open investigation

Whether this energy is aware or not is open to debate & there is no proof beyond experience

I do feel that this energy is awareness, but its not 'doing' awareness, it is just awareness
Just like our minds are here conversing, but our awareness is not doing anything
How do i know it? By meditating on it
Who is the observer? What is awareness? What is 'I'?
These questions fascinate me...


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452448 -

Chronic777 said:
The facts are self evidential

Energy is never created nor destroyed, it is all there is, all there ever will be
So i am that energy

Its not a mere beleif, its an investigation of the observer
Your asking me to show you the observer, when you are the observer
Each one must investigate it themselves


Let me get your logic straight on this one. Everything is made up of energy therefore you are everything that ever is or ever will be? That is a completely illogical and arrogant claim.

You cannot logically deduce that becuase everything is made up of energy, that that all energy is therefore concious and that you are therefore concious of yourself as the totality of that energy (anthropomorphism much?). It is not logical, rational or scientific. You are essentially trying to set yourself up as omniscient with no supporting evidence for the claim. Yes everything is energy, but not all energy or matter is concious.

Trying to equate a scientific principle with a mystical fallacy pertaining to yourself as a totality is the height of arrogance and dishonest self-pretention.

Quote:
Its not a mere belief, its an investigation of the observer
Your asking me to show you the observer, when you are the observer
Each one must investigate it themselves


My question was to the nature of the observed, the nature of the observer is obviously finite but you posit an infinity as the basis of reality. You say that there is infinity without evidence to back up that assertion. The law of thermodynamics does not support your conclusions. The whole concept of infinities pertaining to science and physics is used as a barometer to test whether a theory is sound or not. If a physicist gets infinities in his equations, it is an indication that he has made an error.

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11452450 -

It is not arrogance to see you are this energy
It is arrogance to think & beleive yourself to be other than this energy


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452469 -

Chronic777 said:
It is not arrogance to see you are this energy
It is arrogance to think & beleive yourself to be other than this energy


It is not arrogant to claim (with supported scientific evidence) that you are made up of energy.

It is however arrogant, irrational and illogical to claim without evidence that all energy is concious and that you are the totality of that concious energy.

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11452480 -

Okay :shrug:


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452528 -

Rational, I think you are missing his point.  He's not saying that he himself is everything that ever was or ever will be, he's saying all this energy is one thing, and he is identifying with this one thing, as a part of it.

'It is arrogance to think & beleive yourself to be other than this energy'

He is trying to point out that we are not seperate from this energy.  Again, we are a part of it, not something that exists outside of it.  It is very important to make this realization.


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Smitington]
    #11452565 -

As I said in one of my first points, you can contemplate a plenum of existence, but it does not help one iota to equate the metaphysical with the epistemological.

Anyhow, not all 'energy' is the same and it has not been proven thus, nor is energy concious. You are missing the point that he is making a mystical claim about an ultimate reality and the conciousness of said energy and his authority in regard to that.

None of these claims are rational, logical or true.

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11452569 -

To your mind...


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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11452589 -

RationalEgo said:
You are missing the point that he is making a mystical claim about an ultimate reality and the conciousness of said energy and his authority in regard to that.



This thread is about the existence of infinite eternal energy, an ultimate fundamental reality, not about consciousness or its relation to this energy

Your just psychologically prooving you cant take what im saying objectively
Your totally stuck on who you think 'Chronic' is and what you think 'Chronic' beleives




If you tell a person they are not a person, they are the universe
The person tends to disagree

:heart:


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Edited by Chronic7 (11/14/09 10:52 AM)

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: Chronic7]
    #11452674 -

Chronic777 said:
RationalEgo said:
You are missing the point that he is making a mystical claim about an ultimate reality and the conciousness of said energy and his authority in regard to that.



This thread is about the existence of eternal energy, an ultimate fundamental reality, not about consciousness or its relation to this energy




Nonsense, you have been making epistemological claims the entire way through this thread. Your dishonesty is contemptible.

Quote:
Your just psychologically prooving you cant take what im saying objectively & investigate
Your totally stuck on who you think i am


Throughout this entire thread I have been investigating your claims objectivley. I have shown them for irrational and illogical claims that they are.

I investigated soley based on the statements you have made here that are testament to your beliefs.

Quote:
If you tell a person they are not a person, they are the universe
The person tends to disagree



Your inability to use reason and logic might be the reason why they 'tend to disagree'.

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Re: Rational Logic & Infinity [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11452706 -

The title of this thread is "Rational Logic.." , and no offense Chronic, but providing rational and logic statements is not your strong point, so I can understand where RationalEgo is coming from.  To Rational: understand that rational thinking is your gift, but there are alot of different gifts people can have, and try to understand Chronic's.  I suggest not being so quick to jump on his statements, but give them time to sink it, like you would maybe a peice of art.  You might look at some twentieth century art and your first reaction might be that it is not well drawn, or that you just don't like it, but then you let it sink, and you question the very meaning of art, then you look at it again and see it in a new way.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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