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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: deff]
    #11375743 -

Well some of us choose not to believe in things for which there is no evidence. :shrug: This is why I contend much of buddhist doctrine is religious or blind faith based and a distraction from the real and valuable idea of changing attachments into preferences.:thumbup:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/03/09 10:04 AM)

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: Icelander]
    #11375785 -

I'll buy that life has suffering and that suffering is generally caused by attachment to desire, but I see very little evidence in favor of reincarnation, which sounds like a manifestation of death anxiety.  The attainment of a deathless blissful state also sounds like a carrot employed by Buddhists to induce people to believe in their religion.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: deCypher]
    #11375802 -

In Tibet I believe many of the Bon superstitions were incorporated into their form of Buddhist practice.  The Christians did the same thing with Pagan beliefs and rites.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: FlickeryVision]
    #11375835 -

FlickeryVision said:
Icelander said:
what's samsara


I think it's the occurence of being reborn indefinately untill you reach a state of nirvana, or enlightenment.

Mysticism & the Paranormal


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: Icelander]
    #11375881 -

Icelander said:
In Tibet I believe many of the Bon superstitions were incorporated into their form of Buddhist practice.  The Christians did the same thing with Pagan beliefs and rites.


It's true that different sects of Buddhism were flavoured by the cultures they spread to - like Bon in Tibet and like Taoism in China (Ch'an which became Zen when it hit Japan).

But the relative amount of Bon influence on Tibetan Buddhism is minor - one example I can think of are Tibetan prayer flags (which were a Bon tradition) - but these things were more cultural than core aspects of the Buddhist practice. And when Buddhism hit Tibet, a lot of Bon practices were altered to become more Buddhist - further blurring the line.

But the real method to compare is to look at the main goal of the two practices. In Tibetan Buddhism, in keeping with other Mahayana Buddhist sects, the main goal is to reach Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings - that is the main goal is the complete enlightenment of all minds. Bon, being a shamanic practice, was more concerned with securing worldly results and spirit worship/contact - two things that Buddhism avoids. The lamas of Tibetan Buddhism did in some ways take over some roles that Bon priests were previously filling for the community - i.e. divination practices - but again this was more cultural than it was a core tenet of their form of Buddhism.


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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: deff]
    #11375975 -

If by buddhahood they mean psychologically healthy then I'm all for it.

I just don't believe that we reincarnate. That makes no sense to me. It's so si-fi.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: Icelander]
    #11376042 -

"we" don't reincarnate... everything we know as ourselves dies with the body

in Buddhism, the term rebirth is preferred over reincarnation, as reincarnation often implied the same eternal soul (atman) re-inhabiting new bodies - whereas buddhism taught that there was no eternal soul and that the very subtle mind which reincarnates is constantly changing life after life (which is why rebirth in a different realm as a different class of being is possible).

the very subtle mind which experiences rebirth is the storehouse of karmic imprints which then come into fruition in future moments and future lives. an analogy is that death is like arriving at an airport with a suitcase of karma, shipping it to a random location - but not getting on the plane. A new being at the destination gets the suitcase and continues on the mental continuum's progression or regression.

it could also be said to be like having a series of dreams wherein in each dream you are unaware of the preceeding dreams - and you may have dreamt yourself as totally different dream characters (i.e. a butterfly). The most subtle mind awareness which experienced all of these dreams in succession is that which experiences rebirth after death.

when one reaches enlightenment - they remember all of their preceding lifetimes in a single moment - from which such tales as the 500 lifetimes of Siddhartha Gautama prior to his Buddhahood were recorded. there's some evidence of rebirth if you're willing to accept it, such as the methods by which reincarnated tulkus (Tibetan lineages) such as the Dalai Lama were located (where the incarnate candidate is tested by having to sort out which objects presented to him/her were theirs in the previous life). While there's no "scientific evidence" of rebirth - it also begs the question of what scientific evidence of it would look like. There are many stories of children remembering and recounting details of their previous life that were later confirmed.


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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: deff]
    #11376366 -

he very subtle mind which reincarnates is constantly changing life after life

Oh and so this is supposed to make it more likely to be true.:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: deff]
    #11376853 -

All religions are mired in superstition and myth. What is important are the lessons the stories teach, not the stories. The problem with Eastern Religions is that no matter what they preach, they all adhere to an oppressive class system.  A diverse and contextual understanding of all religions, is a healthier situation. As far as reincarnation is concerned, I haven't seen proof one way or the other.  :peace:

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11376982 -

Great points.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #11377003 -

I think it is life itself that reincarnates because the forms change but life remains.

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11377031 -

I like it when bad things happen to other people, but not when they happen to me.
I love my ego, and everything else. Except for bad things, but only when they happen to me.
:drunkduck:


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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: calm]
    #11377056 -

calm said:
I like it when bad things happen to other people, but not when they happen to me.
I love my ego, and everything else. Except for bad things, but only when they happen to me.
:drunkduck:

I don't like it when bad things happen to anyone.
I have no problem with my ego. My feelings on the other hand is another issue.

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11377063 -

Ahimsa said:
I think it is life itself that reincarnates because the forms change but life remains.



And the vehicle for that is energy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: Icelander]
    #11377075 -

Ahimsa said:
calm said:
I like it when bad things happen to other people, but not when they happen to me.
I love my ego, and everything else. Except for bad things, but only when they happen to me.
:drunkduck:

I don't like it when bad things happen to anyone.
I have no problem with my ego. My feelings on the other hand is another issue.


Icelander said:
Ahimsa said:
I think it is life itself that reincarnates because the forms change but life remains.



And the vehicle for that is energy.


And the vehicle for that is spirit.




















Nah j/k brah


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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: Icelander]
    #11377080 -

Quote:
And the vehicle for that is energy.


Energy takes on different forms too. Maybe life = energy?

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: calm]
    #11377084 -

Quote:
And the vehicle for that is spirit.


Maybe life = spirit?

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11377093 -

Ahimsa said:
Quote:
And the vehicle for that is spirit.


Maybe life = spirit?


I'll get back to you on that when I am satisfied with my lack of understanding


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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: calm]
    #11377102 -

And the vehicle for that is spirit.



No proof of that. No ever not anywhere.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (11/03/09 01:37 PM)

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Re: Right, has anyone of you achieved egolessness yet? [Re: calm]
    #11377129 -

Quote:
I'll get back to you on that when I am satisfied with my lack of understanding


What? All i said was that, to me at least, it seams that it is life that is reincarnating, only its forms change. Icelander called it energy and you spirit. I'm ok with that. But do you agree that only the forms change?

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