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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2322121 - 02/10/04 08:49 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm...I think being aware and being mindful, though simliar in nature, are still on different levels.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: Viaggio]
    #2322162 - 02/10/04 08:56 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

viaggio: Hmm...I think being aware and being mindful, though simliar in nature, are still on different levels

Me too. :wink:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: Sclorch]
    #2322265 - 02/10/04 09:13 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

be mindful and don't obsessively try to define "mindfulness"

there are different definitions, and definitions change over time. language is always in flux.

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Anonymous

Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: Sclorch]
    #2322309 - 02/10/04 09:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: ]
    #2322369 - 02/10/04 09:32 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I'm very confident that being mindful has a specific definition (meaning it isn't open to too many different interpretations).


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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OfflineFrog
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Posts: 4,284
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Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2322444 - 02/10/04 09:52 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Ped: A controlling person is typically frantic and hysterical about properly arranging external conditions in order to avoid situations that bring difficulty, and create probable cause for situations that bring relief. A controlling person believes this is possible, and expends an enormous degree of energy minimizing all of the outside variables, quarreling with others who disagree with that person's methods, and typically abides within minds of tension and stress day after day, perhaps life after life.

This is the opposite of mindfulness. A mindful person has realized that finding happiness and freedom from adversity is not achievable through rearranging the conditions of the outside world. A mindful person has instead turned their focus inward, to their own mind. Through careful observation, a mindful person is aware of which habitual thought patterns bring suffering, and which bring us happiness. Having achieved this special awareness, that person begins abiding within proper minds.


I wasn't exactly a control freak, but I was trying to control my environment, usually in the wrong way, by making wrong decisions, etc., before I finally learned to "let go" of the control and change the way I interpreted my environment, which I was interpreting based on the way I had been raised.

I only have control over me, my reactions, and my decisions. Everyone else can do what they want, but their right to do what they want ends when it begins to affect me. That's where I have control.

Sclorch: Of course, this is based upon my own anecdotal evidence, but the main difference between the two is being comfortable with uncertainty. The control freak battles uncertainty while the mindful relishes it.

Well, I don't know if that's the main difference. I agree, though, that the control freak would tend to battle uncertainty. I don't know that the mindful relish uncertainty.

I think the mindful can handle uncertainty better than the control freak could because the mindful understands that they are, in fact, in control, but of themselves, not of their environment. The control freak is trying to be in control of his extraneous environment, which is always uncertain, instead of his reaction to, and interpretation of, it.

Ped: The mind is functioning this way all the time. The mind is always leading us in different directions. Very rarely are we aware of this process: very rarely are we mindful beings. Take the example of anger. When a situation arises which prompts us to become angry, our mind apprehends a set of circumstances which it disagrees with or finds offensive and says "I should not have to experience these circumstances." Immediately, we are presented with the tempting option to become angry, to viciously oppose the circumstances to which we feel aversion. If we are not mindful, we are blindly guided into fits of frustration and rage, which serve no function except but to harm ourselves and those around us.

When I first became an attorney, I would get pissed off very easily if someone was messing with me, such as another attorney. Or if a client wouldn't take my advice. Or if someone was an asshole.

I learned to stop taking it personally and look at it differently. If an attorney messes with me, fine. I'll play the game and turn it around on him, somewhere, ethically. I am not in control of his unethical actions.

If someone doesn't take my advice, fine. Somewhere down the line, he will wish he had. I don't have control over his right to choose differently. It's his right to choose.

If someone is an asshole, fine. But I am in control of my reaction to someone being an asshole.

Ped: A controlling person, an angry person, an anxious person, all of these unfortunate people are bound within the prison of their own tangled minds. Each of us are suffering to varying degrees in this way. The world is filled with beings trapped in suffering. Understanding this, how can we not have compassion for ourselves and others?

Nicely put, Ped. I had an experience with a really mean woman yesterday. I stayed away from her after I figured out she was just plain mean, because I knew I could probably go off on her if she kept up her belligerent attitude towards me.

Looking back, if I had just had empathy for her, I would have been able to let her talk to me any way she wanted and not felt defensive because it's her "suffering" causing her to treat those around her in that manner.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Anonymous

Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: Frog]
    #2322593 - 02/10/04 10:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
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Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2323469 - 02/11/04 08:35 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

>> AH, but what if one is aware of such a mental process in ones mind, but one can not seem to overcome. Is it because that person thinks that it is something that they must overcome that they become frustrated?

Patience is the biggest factor in this type of scenario. We need to be patient with ourselves and our present capacities, and be willing to accept the outcome of any situation. Patience is a mind that does not expect things to be different from how they are in a given moment. Concientousness, however, wishes to effect gradual change. If we are becoming frustrated or discouraged with our mental habits, we are undermining our ability to oppose them. These too are mental habits which must be dispelled. Patience and concientiousness build a powerful practice.

In Buddhism, there is a difference between mindfulness and awareness. There is a formula for training in transforming bad mental habits. The difference between mindfulness and awareness will come clear throught the explanation of the forumla. This formula is highly effective, and I'm pleased to have this opportunity to share it.

Let's say we wish to dispel the mental habit jealousy. We've recognized that we are often covetous toward our friends and neighbours, even becoming irritated with those we like simply because they have certain good fortune that we do not. Instead of being delighted in their happiness, we are feeling hatred. We've recognized that hatred is uncomfortable and unproductive, and have the wish to change this trend. Having encountered a virtuous wish path, we must follow it if we are to have success.

This forumla has four parts.

Intention - The first thing we must do each morning when we get up is make an intention in our minds. When we lift our head from our pillow, we say "Today, I will oppose the mind of jealousy, and take delight in the good fortune of all those I encounter -- friends, enemies, strangers alike." If we have a morning meditation routine, it's help to bring this intention to the coushin. We understand and have resolved to have patience with jealous minds which will appear throughout the day, and we make the intention not to be consumed by jealous minds as they arise.

Mindfulness - We do not forget our intention. If we are mindful, we have kept our intention clear and present in our minds. We contemplate throughout the day "when a jealous mind arises, how exactly will I oppose it?" We hatch plots to undermine these minds which have been guiding us to unhappy places. We may even place reminders for ourself around our home or work environment, so that we do not forget the disadvantages of the jealous mind, and consistently recall the advantages of being free from it. It is okay to forget our intention at first. If we recognize that we've forgotten our intention, it is an opportunity to cultivate mindfulness by restoring our intention immediately.

Awareness - We are paying close attention to our mind and the way it is functioning. If we have strong awareness, it is like we are sitting atop a lighthouse gazing with our searchlight over the ocean of our mind, looking for any sign of a wayward jealous barge which may smash into our rock. We are aware of our mind and how it's behaving, and are able to recognize a jealous mind when it arises. When jealousy appears, we say "Ah ha! I've been waiting for you, and I know how to handle you." We are not preturbed or discouraged with ourselves for having this mind. We are are able to recognize jealousy when it arises, are prepared to handle it, and are confident in overcoming it.

Concientousness - Concientousness is the mind which confronts the jealous mind that appears. This is the actual training of the mind. If our cowoker arrives with a flashy new Motorolla cellphone and an inexpensive daytime minutes plan, we are able to say "Wow! That's great!" and congratulate him on his good fortune. Although we may feel tight inside because we are experiencing jealous minds, we are not allowing them to dictate our experience; what we say, think, and feel. We are analyzing the mechanics of the mind of jealousy, and using it's appearance to reinforce our renunciation of it. We are ready to begin this training cycle again.

We do this every day until the jealous mind ceases it's appearance entirely.

This is how we train the mind throughout our daily lives. Gen Kelsang Zopa noticed the acronym and now teaches this to his students as the "IMAC" formula. We can select any mental habit we wish and oppose it in this same way. All we must do is have a firm understanding of why it is we wish to oppose the mind we select, be certain that it is a helpful and virtuous practice to engage, and be able to have patience with our abilities. We will most likely not have success the first day. This is okay. Discouragement is a form of laziness. It undermines our practice, and gives the mind an avenue to settle back into it's old habits.

I hope this has been helpful.


>> I only have control over me, my reactions, and my decisions.

This is a quite correct, and quite valuable bit of wisdom.


>>Everyone else can do what they want, but their right to do what they want ends when it begins to affect me. That's where I have control.

Of course it is always necessary to protect ourselves, our safety. If the actions of another pose a threat to us, we need to do what is proper to ensure our safety. If we can do this without harming others, that's favourable. If we cannot, we should at least abstain from killing.

Though, if someone is behaving in a way that affects us undesirably, yet does not pose a threat to our wellbeing, we are in the best position to pacify this situation if we examine the mind, and change our thinking. It is our inner environment which informs us that an individual is beginning to affect us.


>> I think the mindful can handle uncertainty better than the control freak could because the mindful understands that they are, in fact, in control, but of themselves, not of their environment. The control freak is trying to be in control of his extraneous environment, which is always uncertain, instead of his reaction to, and interpretation of, it.

If we check carefully, it is often difficult to discern what is our extraneous environment and what is our internal environment. For example, if someone is behaving in such a way that interferes with us, we may immediately assume it upon ourselves to impose our will upon their actions. After all, they have impacted our inner environment, and that is our realm. But isn't it our mind which decides what precisely is interference? Is it not only us who have control over these perceptions?

It is said that if we are angry, a thousand dancing Buddhas could appear before us, and they would all appear unpleasant. By the same token, if we are content and peaceful inside, a thousand thieves could be stealing all of our posessions, and they would all appear delightful and precious.


>> I agree, though, that the control freak would tend to battle uncertainty. I don't know that the mindful relish uncertainty.

Depending on where we are with our capabilities, we may encounter uncertainty and view it as an excellent opportunity to reinforce our mental stability within given situations. It is a mental habit to become anxious upon encountering uncertainty. If we are willing and capable of opposing this mental habit, and have adopted that as part of our practice, we would delight in the opportunity to transmute uncertainty into an unshakable peace by using it's appearance to deepen our understanding.




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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: Mindfulness and Control [Re: Ped]
    #2323558 - 02/11/04 09:29 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the lesson, Ped.  Valuable insight, as always.

The most important thing I learned: 

Me: I agree, though, that the control freak would tend to battle uncertainty. I don't know that the mindful relish uncertainty.

Ped:  Depending on where we are with our capabilities, we may encounter uncertainty and view it as an excellent opportunity to reinforce our mental stability within given situations. It is a mental habit to become anxious upon encountering uncertainty. If we are willing and capable of opposing this mental habit, and have adopted that as part of our practice, we would delight in the opportunity to transmute uncertainty into an unshakable peace by using it's appearance to deepen our understanding.


I don't mind uncertainty.  I was just saying I don't "relish" it.  However, you have brought up an excellent point, and I hadn't looked at it this way before, that uncertainty makes for an excellent task master toward inner spiritual and emotional growth.

:thumbup:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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