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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: zouden]
    #10282760 -

Diaboleros said:
Ignoring a source doesn't make it go away, try again.




What source was that again?


Please cite and quote it.


All I saw was you claim wikipedia justifies your number.


Leaving alone the distinction of what a wikipedia editor claims and what a reliable source claims (wikipedia doesn't even claim itself to be a reliable source), what are you relying upon?


You've linked to a page, where is the support for :

Quote:
I got it from many many studies. Most range from between 80 to 90 procent. That's why I said, there is no point in giving man a fish, you should learn him how to fish. Google has infinite studies proving my point.





Quote:
Proof? Clinical depression gets magically 'cured' by electroshock in 95% of all cases.




?

Pick out one of these infinite studies

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: johnm214]
    #10282924 -

John, first put your glasses on, and then re-read the thread very very carefully until you find the study posted by zouden. Good luck, you obviously need it.    Btw nice progress, now you're down to 2 enters between a line, only one to go! Good to see you're taking up my advice :thumbup:

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10283156 -

The review that didn't cite your 90% figure and didn't even attempt to measure if anybody was "cured" as you claim?  The review that found a bit less than 40% of those folks who went into remission relapsed within 6 months regardless of continuing therapy?  Doesn't sound like a cure even close to what you cited, even if we presume those who hadn't relapsed in 6 months were cured, as you claim.



Next time don't premise your claim on facts you can't demonstrate.  It makes your position look unfounded, which it does seem to be given your inability to cite with any particularity greater than "google" anything which backs up your claims.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: johnm214]
    #10283395 -

Ok fine, let's assume ECT only has 1% succes rate, then that is still proof of psychology being bullshit. If you can cure a mental disease by just shocking someone, it obviously isn't a disease. It's all in the head, it's all placebo. If you refuse to use logic, you can have all the studies you want, you wont get any wiser.  Sport can even cure mental depression, the sun can cure mental depression, love can cure mental depression, money can cure mental depression... how people can be so blind and believe and defend this psychology bullshit is beyond me. Keep on defending the bullshit, you're really making this world into a better place :rolleyes:

Do you really need a study that proofs that psychology is bullshit before you will believe it? How about thinking for yourself for once? Damn zombies.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10283472 -

Diaboleros said:
If you can cure a mental disease by just shocking someone, it obviously isn't a disease.


Your post is so full of illogical statements it would take too long to address them all. I will pick one. How do you arrive at the conclusion that a if a certain method of treatment reverses a condition it proves it is not a disease? Zouden already provided a link showing how and why ECT works.

As for the rest of your post it seems to follow the same pattern, exercise cures it so it isn't a disease. Money doesn't cure depression BTW. You have discredited whole field based on wrong conclusions about one illness.

Exercise, diet and lifestyle changes can fix many things. Does this mean none of them are diseases?

Edited by mad_cow (05/04/09 12:54 PM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10283479 -

How is the fact that, in some cases, ECT fixes depression, prove for psychology being bullshit?
Couldn't it be possible that both psychology and ECT work? Using this "reasoning" of yours, by noticing the effects of REBT on certain cases of depression, it can be said that ECT is bullshit (which is not the case, of course).

Here's that show depression can be defeated through psychology:
Link1
Link2
Link3
Link4
Link5

Also, you might want to check this book:
Rational Emotive Behavioral Approaches to Childhood Disorders: Theory, Practice and Research

I find it hilarious that you're blaming johnm of not using logic when you make infantile and undeveloped claims such as these from yout last post. :lol:
ECT is placebo? :lol: I'd love the hear how you thought this one out. :smirk:

The fact that"it's all in the head" (whatever the fuck this vague and ambiguous shit this might mean) doesn't mean that depression isn't real.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10283490 -

mad_cow said:
Money doesn't cure depression BTW. You have discredited whole field based on wrong conclusions about one illness.


Indeed.
There's even research to support this


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10283644 -

MushroomTrip said:
Couldn't it be possible that both psychology and ECT work?


How is ECT not psychology?

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10283672 -

ECT belongs to psychiatry, which is on the medical side. Psychology is not medicine.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10283685 -

MushroomTrip said:
Psychology is not medicine.


People in this thread seem to be missing this point.  Psychology is not medicine, its science.  Applying the principles of psychology to mental health is therapy, counseling and (in some part) psychiatry.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10283699 -

Qubit said:
MushroomTrip said:
Psychology is not medicine.


People in this thread seem to be missing this point.  Psychology is not medicine, its science.  Applying the principles of psychology to mental health is therapy, counseling and (in some part) psychiatry.


:thumbup:

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10283736 -

I think depression can be brought about by unhealthy thinking patterns. The long term damage done can be reset by medical methods, such as medication or ECT. In minor cases exercise helps but the thinking patterns need to be addressed.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10284408 -

Actually exercise is a known stimulator of neurogenesis, which is thought to treat depression. Some antidepressants (the good ones) also stimulate neurogenesis, as does ECT, through histone modification of genes responsible for BDNF production.

Diableros, It's not true to say that depression is 'all in your head' just because exercise or electricity can treat it. That's ignoring the physiological effects of exercise and electricity. They are medical treatments in much the same way that drugs are.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10285105 -

Quote:
So you say bipolar is a made up disease and provide data about ADHD. Do you see how that is irrelevant? Bipolar is not a made up disease. There is a song about it, "manic depression" .


depression and adhd came from the same source. i dont think anything i have posted in this thread is in any way irrelevant. If adhd is made up, then so is bipolar.
ever one of my points can be made about any mental disorder.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10285173 -

MushroomTrip said:
How is the fact that, in some cases, ECT fixes depression, prove for psychology being bullshit?
Couldn't it be possible that both psychology and ECT work? Using this "reasoning" of yours, by noticing the effects of REBT on certain cases of depression, it can be said that ECT is bullshit (which is not the case, of course).

Here's that show depression can be defeated through psychology:
Link1
Link2
Link3
Link4
Link5

Also, you might want to check this book:
Rational Emotive Behavioral Approaches to Childhood Disorders: Theory, Practice and Research

I find it hilarious that you're blaming johnm of not using logic when you make infantile and undeveloped claims such as these from yout last post. :lol:
ECT is placebo? :lol: I'd love the hear how you thought this one out. :smirk:

The fact that"it's all in the head" (whatever the fuck this vague and ambiguous shit this might mean) doesn't mean that depression isn't real.



MT, thanks for the links, and I am glad to see that the psychological community is starting to embrace the idea that mental "labels" might not be caused by genetics or anything physical...

but you didnt really show any studies, just people saying how effective it was.

even though link 5 was a link to the abstract of a study, i would like to see more about it. What bothers me is terms like "scored the highest" and the way they tried to rate how biased people were about their own perception of negative and positive events...
this is what I was talking about in the beginning of this thread (in regards to psychology not being scientific)... you either have to say "yes, everything is a variable, and every variable is subjective" when dealing with emotional issues, or you have to say "yes, everything is subjective and a variable, that is why we have created a macro model of human behaviour".
how can you use terms such as "scored highest" or rating perceived bias without making pure value judgements that have no basis whatsoever other than an agreed upon social framework of action/reaction, sane/insane, acceptable/unacceptable behaviour?

but I am glad you showed me this. it shows hope for the psychology community to maybe really distance itself from the wretched psychiatry community.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: zouden]
    #10285174 -

zouden said:
Actually exercise is a known stimulator of neurogenesis, which is thought to treat depression. Some antidepressants (the good ones) also stimulate neurogenesis, as does ECT, through histone modification of genes responsible for BDNF production.

Diableros, It's not true to say that depression is 'all in your head' just because exercise or electricity can treat it. That's ignoring the physiological effects of exercise and electricity. They are medical treatments in much the same way that drugs are.


Laughter can heal it instantly. Or love, that's pure thought.. mind over matter.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10285279 -

So what is depression then?  You must be using a definition that departs pretty wildly from what I thought we wera talking about and what the studies refrenced earlier were talking about.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: johnm214]
    #10287702 -

Define depression?
Define anything, you all make it sound so easy.
Why does it seem you "scientists" always wish to define these terms without context, as if this "immanent" mind or nature could somehow also be your subject?

To study projections, should be to acknowledge that all there is, is projection.

So we have a context, like a game of poker, with bluffs and tells, "truth" and deceit. But there is really no such thing as the supposed rules that are behind (defining) these quirky transgressions. The reality of bluffs and tells is always part of an established game.

Theoretically, it is projections all the way down, because it is transgressions all the way down. Realistically, its not "all the way", it just never ends. The equivalent philosophic truth is that there really are no rules, and so no basis for normalcy other than what we make. The scientific psychologist does not acknowledge this responsibility. As a science, the responsibility is instead diverted to what is "natural". (science as naturalism)

Those rules are the limitations; limitations we more often than not "live by", but only because we have conformed to a notion of normalcy. This is not a human "essence" these limitations are essentially, negations of freedom/nothingness. That is all these amazing structures are, they are transient leverages, tensions, all that is temporarily contrary to freedom/nothingness.

So here is the question:
What if life is just absurd? A joke? What is the psychological theory of humor, because that is the only truth I have ever seen...

Quote:
Those who do not laugh, do not learn at all.

-Tao Te Ching "following"



Tell me, do I have a good or bad sense of humor? What's funny and what isn't?
Tell me whats beautiful, and what's ugly, whats worthwhile and what should be avoided in life.
In a word, could you describe this standard for human behavior, so that I could understand the basis of definition?

There is a reason that the psychologist is asking questions, rather than expounding these supposed truths as the philosopher does. Theoretical existence is only a reflection of reality, and its effectiveness is a projection.

Of course we use theories all the time, but the idea is not to. See a person who really knows what he is doing in any medium, and also see how insignificant theory actually is. He knows that all there is to existence is this fucked up humor, grating tension, and this dissonance of a senseless relation between man and nature; this art that psychologists take upon themselves to "treat" or "cure".

Studying psychology as "positive", is just like studying any other theory. If it were music, modern psychology would be teaching everybody the same chord progressions, because they have been proven "effective". And many are satisfied with that, because that's all they have ever encountered. I-IV-V, its the progression of the "greatest pop songs ever written", so how could anyone not be satisfied?

With every theory of human nature, every structure, basically every usefulness, comes value. Calling psychology a science is the refusal to acknowledge that, by the supposed virtue of its investment in "nature". And so "nature" becomes an institution of normalcy.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (05/05/09 12:26 AM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10288122 -

Im just going to add in here that psychological disorders are REAL. This is because we have an accepted notion of 'normal' behavior, and if you deviate from this, then you have a disorder.

Of course, since there is no such thing as actual normal anything, this concept yields an 'unreal' result. But as humans we function with the notion of normalcy and we need it in order to think efficiently and share ideas.

Thus the concept is still a significant, real aspect of reality that we can report on.

Depression is a real disorder, even if there is not a single localisable 'error' in people's brain function that could be directly associated with all cases of that disorder.

But in society, we need the assumption that people have appropriate mental capabilities in order to make accurate predictions and diplomatic judgements.

Thus we need to have a way, in language, to refer to deviations from our assumptions about mental tendancies.

These are 'disorders'.

Whether or not psychology correctly understands the meaning of 'disorders' is another story.

Not only this, but psychology, as a semi-science, aims are creating models so that technology can be created and used to make money. Thus there is a bias toward understanding the world in such a way that the information will lead to new technologies and new markets.

EG. Is depression in most cases the result of faulty brain mechanisms? Or is it just the case that many people in today's society are living in worlds that are structured so as to bias the normal human brain toward depressed ?

Since we can develop and sell a treatment for depression in the first case, the former interpretation is that which is pursued by most sciences.

The latter interpretation is a very different issue... I dont know if many psychologists are willing or able to insert into their work any thesis that presumes that society is sick... its more the realm of sociology


--------------------

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: johnm214]
    #10288156 -

johnm214 said:
So what is depression then?  You must be using a definition that departs pretty wildly from what I thought we wera talking about and what the studies refrenced earlier were talking about.


Depression is mere melancholy. It's only an emotion and can change into another emotion anytime. Even depressed people fall in love or laugh.  Clinical depression is what happens when people believe depression is a fixed state of mind. The emotion becomes a meditation. Analyze their thoughts, and you will see they think about nothing else but the melancholy.

That's exactly why psychology is not merely bullshit, but also very harmful for society. In my country, each day, someone kills themself because they are depressed. If only they weren't lied against about the nature of depression being a fixed state of mind, this would not happen imo. People are convinced depression is a disorder, and that they can't get rid of it anymore.

Good job guys for supporting the idea of depression. You're making the world into a better place. :thumbup:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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