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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: fivepointer]
    #10272949 -

I intend to put that in an advance directive, seriously.



If there's any chance I'm at all concious I want to be put out of my misery, and I don't want to dehydrate to death.


And honestly, I see no distinction between shooting someone in the head or removing support.  If I have a retarded child that cannot feed themselves, then purposefully leavin them in their room with the understanding they will die is the same as shooting them.


But that's a side issue.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10272954 -

johnm214 said:
I don't see how you can believe that personhood begins at conception from a biblical or philosophic perspective.




The distinction between a person and a human being is a legal one.  The Bible considered humans persons.  There are scriptures that talk about unborn humans.

Here is an issue where philosophy and science are needed to formulate the best answer.  The distinction between persons and humans is useless unless one is seeking to deny some humans their rights.


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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10273019 -

?  I defined the difference between personhood and being human (well I didn't define human, but you know what it means, same with life).


Are you saying there is no difference betwen human life and personhood?  skin cell and you?  What does the legal refrence have to do with anything? 


Anyways, where does the bible say all human beings (dead ones?) have personhood?  All human life have personhood? 


That's the whole discussion, if you have such a citation that bring it forward, otherwise I don't understand your point, and the legal refrence seems semantical, something I'm trying to avoid.  We're not talking law here.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10273043 -

fivepointer said:
The only difference between the two is the time of development.  It is wrong to kill a fetus or a baby.

... A massive part of the debate about abortion is at what stage in development, and there is a huge difference. Unless you figured out exactly where life with a soul as OP defined it starts.

Quote:
On a philosophical basis, the woman can try to argue that she has a right of bodily ownership and therefore can dispose of a fetus.  She could say that to be forced to go full term makes her a slave to the fetus.  I would counter that she can not cause harm to another person (death by abortion) even if the person (fetus) is trespassing in her body.

Interesting that you automatically assumed that a fetus is a person without proving it, which also is one of the vital issues of this topic.


Quote:
The fetus has no ability to remove itself from the situation, and can not survive without her.  Unlike a person who is trespassing, and is ordered to leave, and doesn't, that person can then be forced to leave.  So the trespass argument falls flat since the woman is responsible for allowing the situation to happen, and has placed herself in it.  In the case of a rape, the woman is not responsible for the situation, however this doesn't mean the fetus can be killed.  The woman would have a case against the rapist for the 9 months of involuntary fetal development.

You've lost me here, are you essentially telling the rape victim to just put up with it for nine months? You do realize that the woman then has to care for the child for probably the remainder of her life right? I think your trespassing argument is a strawman because I didn't see anyone bring that up and it's a rather ridiculous analogy


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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10273106 -

johnm214 said:
You don't believe there is a difference between a normal person and a beheaded body being kept alive mechanically?  A normal person and a culture in a petri dish?


If you're going to be picky about terminology, please define what you believe to be a "normal" person. The difference between "a skin culture and a person or a braindead body/corpse and a person" is merely an issue of electrical activity in the brain. Is this a "soul" to you?

Quote:
Do you believe killing people is wrong in any circumstance for nonconsequential reasons?  Is it multiple homicides every time you brush against the wall and kill some skin cells or get a scrape and do the same?


It depends on the circumstance. No, I don't believe it's multiple homicides every time a skin cell dies, "homicide" (by definition) is the killing of a human being by another human being. Don't be stupid.

Quote:
I have no idea how you can maintain these beliefs, and it seems you must if you don't recognize a soul.


A soul, like morality, is a human invention. The only reasons for souls to exist that I've heard are "because they have to!" and "because if there weren't souls, then we would just be a bunch of chemicals, and who wants to live in a world like that??" These are obviously bullshit arguments (if you have any better ones I would be more than happy to hear them).

We're programmed to believe in souls because it makes us feel important and is a strategic method to help individual survival. In reality, the universe doesn't care when a person dies... life goes on. People's personalities (or your term... "personhood") can be altered through brain damage or chemical imbalances. This leads me to believe that what we like to think of as souls are just our minds fucking with us :shrug:


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Even a fish could stay out of trouble if it would just learn to keep its mouth shut.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10275272 -

If there were a million dollar prize for producing a human being, we would be arguing for the earliest determination of life.  It's amazing how much justification is done trying to persuade ourselves, That it is OK to end our child's life.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10275309 -

If personhood didn't begin at conception then there would be people who exist that were never conceived.

It would have to be a violation of the natural progression of how things are in order for that initial condition to progress through the natural evolution from beginning to end wouldn't it.

If that were the case then it is clear that one should not let Logic and Reason guide them.

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