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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
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Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
When does "personhood" begin?
    #1079805 - 11/23/02 06:31 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

There was an interesting discussion in another thread ("Compromise") about abortion. But that discussion was mainly a debate about the dictionary definition of "human life". But why should the debate center around what the dictionary says!?!? The real question (as Mr Mushrooms pointed out in one of his threads) in Roe vs. Wade had nothing to do with "human life", but rather something the decision referred to as personhood.

So here's my question: Assuming that personhood is that point in time when life should be protected, when does personhood begin? Forget the dictionary - just answer based on when you believe life should be protected. Religious extremists would argue that life should be protected as soon as sperm enters the uterus (hence the reason some churches ban birth control). Others would say as soon as the sperm enters the egg. Some would say when the embreo becomes a fetus. My own logic says that life becomes sacred and deserving of protection when the brain becomes aware of it's own existance (which I would guess probably happens around the time of birth).

Other opinions???

Edit: Also, what is the rationale behind your opinion???


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (11/23/02 07:11 PM)


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1079813 - 11/23/02 06:38 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

When The kid is born. Bad events might set off other negative things in later life.

Killing life is a tiny bit of a different story. Emotionally i'd have a problem killing a kid. But if the kid isnt aware of his own existence, I dont think he would care so neither should I.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: David_Scape]
    #1079849 - 11/23/02 07:02 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

"if the kid isnt aware of his own existence, I dont think he would care so neither should I."

That's pretty much my rationale. Seems to make a lot of sense to me, but I wonder how many others would agree.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineFcuerkt
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Registered: 11/11/02
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080034 - 11/23/02 08:49 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

I think every sperm is the potential for life, and that's almost as valuble as life itself. I don't support abortion, abortion is death and death is bad. I think everyone should keep their children and everyone else should help raise the children, so we can be one big happy family.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: Fcuerkt]
    #1080116 - 11/23/02 09:32 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

After 45 days of pregnancy (brain forms).


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: Fcuerkt]
    #1080177 - 11/23/02 10:05 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Death is bad? Its just as necessary as birth, man...

In the context of abortion its certainly debatable, but to say death is bad... lol I think thats absurd.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (11/23/02 10:06 PM)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1080188 - 11/23/02 10:09 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

If a life has not really started, then why not recycle it? Sooner than later right?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: Fcuerkt]
    #1080193 - 11/23/02 10:12 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

(Sorry, just some lyrics from Monty Python's "Meaning of Life")

The problem I see with "potential" is that you could make the following argument:
I should fuck any chick who's not pregnant.  Why?  Because if I don't fuck her, there goes a potential human life that could have existed if I did.  Instead, I lose my sperm in my next ejaculation, and she loses her egg in her next period.  Tragic!  :shocked:


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (11/24/02 12:10 AM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: Murex]
    #1080280 - 11/23/02 10:52 PM (14 years, 13 days ago)

"After 45 days of pregnancy (brain forms)."

I can understand that logic!  :laugh: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (11/24/02 12:29 AM)


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080440 - 11/24/02 12:06 AM (14 years, 13 days ago)

I agree.

Whenever someone begins telling me abortion is wrong, I ask if masturbation is wrong.

There are millions of little sperms inside of me, is it morally wrong for me not to impregnate millions of women every day?


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Offlinekrispyfi
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080441 - 11/24/02 12:07 AM (14 years, 13 days ago)

lots of tiny non-cute animals have rudimentary brains, but we do not think twice about killing them. human beings become rational and self-aware several weeks after birth. until then, babies are just biomass with rights related only to their ability to feel pain. painless infanticide is morally OK (but maybe not psychologically OK. we are mammals, and we have a strong [but irrational] aversion to killing babies of our own species.).

for more info, look up an ethicist named peter singer. he does lots of medical ethics stuff.


--------------------


If i get into some trouble TURBO BOOST will set me free.
Michael Knight you watch the bass with the K I T T.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: krispyfi]
    #1080457 - 11/24/02 12:13 AM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Dude, that's a really good answer.  :laugh:  Five shrooms for that one.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (11/24/02 12:27 AM)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1080489 - 11/24/02 12:26 AM (14 years, 13 days ago)

"I've wiped entire civilazations off my chest with a grey gymsock."

-Bill Hicks (the coolest).


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: Fcuerkt]
    #1088497 - 11/26/02 08:26 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

"abortion is death and death is bad"

Are you strictly refering to human death, or death in general?


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineMystrysAbsynth
emotional RETARD

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 1,116
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1093446 - 11/28/02 11:46 AM (14 years, 9 days ago)

Exactly 49 days after conception...as the pineal gland is formed and begins activity.This is when a soul has then chosen the body.

IMHO :laugh:


:tongue: ~K~ 


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Try not to let your mind wander...It is too small and fragile to be out by itself


Edited by MystrysAbsynth (11/28/02 11:46 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: MystrysAbsynth]
    #1093451 - 11/28/02 11:48 AM (14 years, 9 days ago)

Oddly enough Aristotle thought the same thing.  Only I think he said that was for males, with females he thought it was 65 days or something like that.  Sexist! :mad:

:grin:

Have a lovely Thanksgiving!


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OfflineMystrysAbsynth
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: ]
    #1093461 - 11/28/02 11:59 AM (14 years, 9 days ago)

MR.M...ty ..and i hope yours is nice as well.


I do truly wonder.....maybe the wrong post for this....has anyone else ever entertained the idea that WOMEN were actually "awakened" first and are therefore closer to the Divine?? If woman , supposedly according to the fairy tales of ye old bible, ate from the tree of knowledge first..and subsequently brought man to her level by encouraging knowledge in him.......well anyway..a bit disjointed and yet...

i feel there are MANY reasons man feared woman and therefore made his goal to dominate her.We, as a more enlightened consciousness, don't hold these to be true..but out of habit , do thereby perpetuate the behaviors.

ONCE AGAIN...only MHO!!

I'd love to hear anyone elses ideas on this.

~K~


--------------------
Try not to let your mind wander...It is too small and fragile to be out by itself


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: MystrysAbsynth]
    #1093468 - 11/28/02 12:08 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

Some uhh...friends of mine say that 21 days after conception is when the soul usually enters the body so abortion is not permitted after that time period. Of course, they have the technology to know exactly when conception takes place.


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Anonymous

Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: MystrysAbsynth]
    #1093472 - 11/28/02 12:12 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

There are no "wrong posts". :wink:

And here I thought it was because men are jerks. :smile:

Women are more spiritually inclined then men as far as I'm concerned.  Maybe you have struck on something.

I'd love to discuss this further right now but I have been "TOLD" that we are eating Turkey and I'd BETTER get my smelly butt in gear!

That means later, I guess. :wink:

Till then,

~K~ 


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: When does "personhood" begin? [Re: MystrysAbsynth]
    #1093474 - 11/28/02 12:12 PM (14 years, 9 days ago)

Woman are indeed the divine goddesses. Men feared that womans superiority would make them obsolete and set out to dominate the opposite sex. Good thing though this is beginning to turn around. Mother Earth, Father Space. Integration has begun.

/bows to Mystrys


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