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Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief?
    #10271832 -

I don't see how you can believe that personhood begins at conception from a biblical or philosophic perspective.

I'm using personhood to denote human life with a soul.  Soul is used as that quality that distinguishes a person from simple life (the difference between a skin culture and a person or a braindead body/corpse and a person, the later only if you believe there is a distinction.



Biblically I see no support.  Specifically catholicism has wrote a lot on this subject and been active in pushing for this definition, but it is never well supported.  They can't explain where the soul comes from or goes to in the cases of monozygotic twins or chimeras (specifically when mechanically induced by a person) and haven't even tried.


I can find no biblical support for the notion that life begins at conception.


Addtionally, the same problems, sans the biblical issue, are present in regular philosophical or scientific analysis of the question.  How can we explain the twinning or chimera phenomena if we recognize it isn't wrong to kill human life, only wrong to kill a person?


I think it is very difficult and only works if you believe in predetermination (which moots the question) or a god (that which gives personhood- the einsteinian god) that bestows personhood and takes it away at our behest (imperceptibly).

What do you guys think?


Can the catholic, in particular, claims that life begins at conception be supported by the bible in any way?  Can the belief in general be reconciled with biology in such a way that we haven't mooted whether it is wrong to kill?

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10271887 -

"How can we explain the twinning or chimera phenomena if we recognize it isn't wrong to kill human life, only wrong to kill a person?"

What is the distinction between a person and a human life?


"Can the catholic, in particular, claims that life begins at conception be supported by the bible in any way?  Can the belief in general be reconciled with biology in such a way that we haven't mooted whether it is wrong to kill?"

There probably is something in the Bible that claims that, or else why would Catholics use their religion to justify such a belief? :shrug:


Are you making a case for abortion? Personally, I think having such technology is somewhat of a miracle, especially considering how overpopulated our cities are. Many people are born into horrible conditions, and live in stressful, poverty-stricken environments that can only provide for a miserable life; if such people were aborted, then there would be less human suffering in the world. I definitely wouldn't have a child if I wasn't financially, emotionally, and psychologically stable, but the fact is, many people who don't fit this description have babies that are born in unfortunate environments, and if this could be prevented, why shouldn't it?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10271932 -

johnm214 said:
I'm using personhood to denote human life with a soul.  Soul is used as that quality that distinguishes a person from simple life (the difference between a skin culture and a person or a braindead body/corpse and a person, the later only if you believe there is a distinction.



I'm not convinced souls exist at all :shrug:


--------------------
Even a fish could stay out of trouble if it would just learn to keep its mouth shut.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: Poid]
    #10271945 -

Poid said:
"How can we explain the twinning or chimera phenomena if we recognize it isn't wrong to kill human life, only wrong to kill a person?"

What is the distinction between a person and a human life?





I defined it earlier.  It would probably be best if folks make sure they are using these words as I am or if not to clearly define teh words so we don't run into confusion.

person:  human life with a soul or human life with that quality that distinguishes, morally, a  living human cell from a living human being who has all the qualities we normally expect (conciousness, et cet)

My statement above seems unclear in retrospect.  I mean to ask:  "How can we reconcile twinning and chimerism with a "personhood at conception" belief given that we recognize a distinction between human life and personhood?"  If we recognize this person/life distinction then their is an extra quality, which I've termed a soul, present at conception that makes that egg a person.  But how can that be reconciled with the fact that if two zygotes adhere under some circumstances (natural or through purposeful mechanical manipulation) they create one person? 

Did the other person die even though no cells did and the resulatant life is perfectly healthy?  Does the person have two souls?  Similarly how is our premise of personhood at conception reconciled with the fact that one zygote split mechanically or naturally will produce two people?  Where did the second person come from?  Either way you must believe some unpleasant and herretical things to reconcile this, and it doesn't seem compatible with the christian, scientific, or philosophical beliefs most of us have- its a stretch in other words.
Quote:
"Can the catholic, in particular, claims that life begins at conception be supported by the bible in any way?  Can the belief in general be reconciled with biology in such a way that we haven't mooted whether it is wrong to kill?"

There probably is something in the Bible that claims that, or else why would Catholics use their religion to justify such a belief? :shrug:





I'm guessing your not familiar with catholicism and/or the bible, correct?


Rather than guess that something claims this, which I can very do myself it that's what I was after, why don't you posit what it is?  Where catholicism is concerned it is perhaps not a good presumption to believe the doctrine is a restatement of, or even compatible with, the bible.

In my reading I've not discovered "something in the bible that claims that" which is the point of the question.


Quote:
Are you making a case for abortion? Personally, I think having such technology is somewhat of a miracle, especially considering how overpopulated our cities are. Many people are born into horrible conditions, and live in stressful, poverty-stricken environments that can only provide for a miserable life; if such people were aborted, then there would be less human suffering in the world. I definitely wouldn't have a child if I wasn't financially, emotionally, and psychologically stable, but the fact is, many people who don't fit this description have babies that are born in unfortunate environments, and if this could be prevented, why shouldn't it?



I'm asking the question I asked.  Whatever its implications aren't the point, I'm trying to see how catholic, in particular, doctrine can be reconciled with our universe and the bible, or how the plain belief in personhood at conception can be reconciled with our universe- what beliefs we must adopt to do so and if these are tenable.

I'd prefer not to discus whether you think killing people so that others may have a better life is morally justifiable, that's not the point at all.  I'm discussing a particular belief system from two different perspectives, that is all.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: Zippy]
    #10271952 -

Zippy said:
johnm214 said:
I'm using personhood to denote human life with a soul.  Soul is used as that quality that distinguishes a person from simple life (the difference between a skin culture and a person or a braindead body/corpse and a person, the later only if you believe there is a distinction.



I'm not convinced souls exist at all :shrug:




You don't believe there is a difference between a normal person and a beheaded body being kept alive mechanically?  A normal person and a culture in a petri dish?


Do you believe killing people is wrong in any circumstance for nonconsequential reasons?  Is it multiple homicides every time you brush against the wall and kill some skin cells or get a scrape and do the same? 

I have no idea how you can maintain these beliefs, and it seems you must if you don't recognize a soul.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10271960 -

He probably thinks of the word 'soul' as it is defined in the Bible.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10272030 -

johnm214 said:
I can find no biblical support for the notion that life begins at conception.



For the longest time- over a thousand years- the Church's policy was that life begins at quickening, the stage when movement can first be felt. Usually around five months. Before the pregnancy reached that stage, they were much less concerned about it. Life-at-conception is a really new concept, historically.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: Poid]
    #10272085 -

Doc_T said:
johnm214 said:
I can find no biblical support for the notion that life begins at conception.



For the longest time- over a thousand years- the Church's policy was that life begins at quickening, the stage when movement can first be felt. Usually around five months. Before the pregnancy reached that stage, they were much less concerned about it. Life-at-conception is a really new concept, historically.




Longer then that I believe.  Its fairly recently that they adopted the at conception belief, the history of their doctrine is quite at odds with the modern belief.


Either way, they can make mistakes and that doesn't mean they are wrong in this case, I'm just trying to see if there's any way this concept can be valid from a catholic perspective ( I don't think it can) or from any perspective, and what beleifs you must adopt to believe in it.



Poid said:
He probably thinks of the word 'soul' as it is defined in the Bible.



If people are going to comment on the concepts I've defined, please either use my definitions or state your own.  I can't remember a conversation on this topic that didn't get mired in equivocations (in the media especially when christians are put on point on the personhood at conception issue) and impossibly vague statements for that reason, which is why I went through the trouble of defining my use of hte words so that the meaning is clear.

.  Maybe I should have used "adljfdaslfj" as the noun labeling that quality which when present makes a person when combined with human life (so people who like to argue over words rather than ideas are frustrated), but I think "soul" is a bit easier.


In any case, what does soul mean in the bible and what does that have to do with anything?  The whole point is asking whether personhood at conception is compatible with the universe from either a catholic or philosophical point of view.  If you don't believe their is any distinction between life and peronhood then you've either rejected the premise entirely (so the comment is pointless) or have a novel belief system that you've not demonstrated can accommodate the relevant premises, which is the whole point (so again, the comment is pointless).



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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10272298 -

C'mon John, surely you've read the passage in the bible dealing with blastulas?

:lol:


--------------------


Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #10272319 -

5HTSynaptrip said:
C'mon John, surely you've read the passage in the bible dealing with blastulas?



Just guessing here-
but the theological idea probably comes directly from the Mary/ virgin birth story. Jesus was Jesus from the moment the Holy Ghost did his thing. If Mary had aborted, she'd have killed Jesus 32 years too early.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #10272351 -

Naw, I missed it.  I also missed where life begins at conception, which makes me look askew at the religious folks who parrot it.


It may be part of their belief system, but it seems incompatible with the bible or even their other beliefs.


I really don't know why the catholic church hasn't explained their position on these issues.  Maybe since most folks don't know biology it is unnecessary?  Why deal with it if you don't have to, I guess?



Here's the catholic version of us discussing similar issues:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=331794&highlight=twin+conception





The answer seems to be "why can't god just make a soul when the embryo splits or have done it ahead of time/controlled the split?"


Well two problems:  1.  If personhood begins at conception, did we have two people in one homologous body?  How does that happen, and is this in any way consistant with the religion and bible- not that I'm aware of?  Can we have an infinite number of souls?  If god creates the second soul at the split then for one person, they really didn't begin at conception- meaning the church is wrong.



2.  Nobody told these folks that "twinning" can be done by mechanical manipulation.  "god knew ahead of time in his diving plan" doesn't answer this issue.  If I create a twin then god couldn't have known ahead of time unless we don't have free will.  Oops, but us having free will is pretty much the foundation of the entire religion, and is mentioned several times in the bible where life at conception doesn't seem to be.

Here's an appologist on the matter:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=16880

Quote:
We know that human life begins at conception. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states, “Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception” (CCC 2270, emphasis added). In the case of identical twins, as in the case of singletons, conception (fertilization) occurs only once therefore, each twin’s soul must exist at their shared conception.



Not authoritative for the church, but interesting.  This guy is saying you can have two souls in one body.  Ok.  So what about the mechanically produced twins?  Either we don't have free will (a no no), or god created a soul as soon as we split it.  Again, meaning personhood didn't begin at conception for one person.

The notion of god creating souls instantaneously as we seperate and combine cells seems a bit off, no?  Is this catholic theology?  God watching the cells divide and responding as soon as they are disturbed?


The number of problems this creates just grows and grows.  Could it be, rather, that this is a new, political, doctrine that was made by folks who were more concerned with politics and using hell to convince people not to do certain things then they were with accurately teaching what the bible says?

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10272395 -

Yea, lack of understanding I'd say.  I pretty much agree with everything you've said, and I've argued it with family members to the point of wanting to combust.

The Catholic response to when a soul is manifested is nothing more than the typical religious side-step, to further the meme that daily gets shredded by our further understanding of nature.  Remember how they fucked everyone saying Earth wasn't the center of the universe?  This is in the exact same genre of illogical shit-spewing as that.  Each time we discover something new, there will be a fancy tale that is nowhere in the bible, some theologian will contrive to keep the tithes rolling in.


--------------------


Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #10272670 -

The fetus is a complete genetic person, the only difference being time to develop.  I don't see a big difference why it is not OK to kill a baby but OK to kill a fetus.  The only difference between the two is the time of development.  It is wrong to kill a fetus or a baby.

On a philosophical basis, the woman can try to argue that she has a right of bodily ownership and therefore can dispose of a fetus.  She could say that to be forced to go full term makes her a slave to the fetus.  I would counter that she can not cause harm to another person (death by abortion) even if the person (fetus) is trespassing in her body.  The fetus has no ability to remove itself from the situation, and can not survive without her.  Unlike a person who is trespassing, and is ordered to leave, and doesn't, that person can then be forced to leave.  So the trespass argument falls flat since the woman is responsible for allowing the situation to happen, and has placed herself in it.  In the case of a rape, the woman is not responsible for the situation, however this doesn't mean the fetus can be killed.  The woman would have a case against the rapist for the 9 months of involuntary fetal development.


Biblically you will not find a statement the "life begins a conception".  However it does say that a fetus is alive and conscious.

Luke 1
41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:  And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43  And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
 

Roman Catholics do not base their doctrine on the Bible.  They make it all up as they go along.  So from a Christian perspective what they believe is irrelevant since they have overturned the very source that defines doctrine, The Word of God.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: fivepointer]
    #10272691 -

That 'leaping in the womb' is quickening, as mentioned upthread.

For me the difference between a fetus and a baby is viability. Up until about 24 weeks gestational age, the fetus cannot live outside the womb, making it part of the woman. After viability is reached and it can survive on its own, that's a baby.

The idea of choice is founded on the premise of the most good with the least harm. If a fetus is saved, but the woman's life destroyed... that's amorally ambiguous situation. The fetus is one person, but the woman's life may involve many others.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10272748 -

The viability argument just doesn't cut it.  The fetus is not genetically part of the woman at any time.  Just as you can not throw a baby out into the woods, since you have a responsibility to care for it, you can not throw a fetus out of your body.  Both will cause death.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: fivepointer]
    #10272770 -

That's certainly one opinion.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: fivepointer]
    #10272788 -

cancer is also a distinct genetic entity, is that a person?


Identical twins are not distinct, are they not people?


I don't think the gentic argument has much merit.



Quickening is a logical pragmatic choice, but it seems morally ambiguous.  I really don't know.  I mean are people on heart lung machines not people?  Folks who need care to live?  If you put me in a room and I no longer a person as I need outside assistance to live?  Is it only "normal" function?  So if you put me in the room and remove my intestine I can no longer eat or drink to nurish myself, am I then no longer a person?


Like I said, I think its a pragmatic choice but not very relevant morally.


But yeah, I don't find the biblical refrence very enlightening, as it is referring to a specific child, we know children leap in the womb, that doesn't answer when they are people.  Brain dead people will leap as well, I think they are not people (or at least if they are it is not wrong to kill them).


And fivepointer, we're discussing not fetuses but clumps of cells, or one cell.  Zygotes et cet.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: johnm214]
    #10272800 -

Quote:
johnm214 said:Brain dead people will leap as well, I think they are not people (or at least if they are it is not wrong to kill them).


If I was brain dead, I'd want somebody to kill me. Kind of off topic from the original question, but there you go.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10272884 -

Doc_T said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:Brain dead people will leap as well, I think they are not people (or at least if they are it is not wrong to kill them).


If I was brain dead, I'd want somebody to kill me. Kind of off topic from the original question, but there you go.


Removal of support is one thing, but to actually kill them?  They are still a person.  A person can sign a living will that states that if brain dead then do not support me any longer.  A person can not legally state if brain dead then shoot me in the head.

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Re: Personhood begins at conception. A viable philosophic or biblical belief? [Re: fivepointer]
    #10272939 -

Pull plug, pull trigger.
Action leading to death.

To me, those are the same. Maybe you differentiate them. I don't.

But I've seen situations that maybe you haven't. Situations where the merciful thing- the kind thing- would be to end suffering quickly and with as little further suffering as possible.

Sometimes it happens. Tragically, it often does not, and the pain and suffering go on and on. Not just for the person, but their family, their caregivers, the community.

But now we're way off topic.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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