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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10247871 -

Is it complicated to be asked for clarification?
In one of my previous posts I mentioned all information, not only the one regarding psychology, hence the reason why I asked for a clarification. Sorry for disturbing you. :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10252062 -

sterbeklang said:
All I'm saying is it's not worth the money... yet.


Portal:Psychology - Wikipedia

:naughty:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10253686 -

I think psychology started out horrendously, but is in some ways getting better. The main problem with psychologists is their insane belief that an allegory counts as science -- if an anatomist tried to define the body as being composed of tensions between forces of movement and forces of rest (okay that's not a great example but lets move past it), they'd lose all credibility. And yet Freud's id, ego, superego "model" of the mind is still talked about after all these decades. Look at a brain: there is no id in there. That is not a thing.

To my thinking, the brain is a chaotic neural network (chaotic in the sense of nonlinear systems theory), and if we're going to understand behavior we're going to have to think about it from that perspective. This is probably my favorite topic to think about while tripping -- exactly how my thoughts are formed -- but I can't claim to have any conclusions really.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: skatealex2]
    #10253847 -

My opinion is.. that this kind of science needs to be very exact before putting into motion.

Medical doctors wont operate on the brain or heart simply because they have a theory and think it might work.
On the other hand.. i think psychology does that.
It has been prematurely declared as an official and credible science to learn and practice on other people.

I hear a lot of you guys say how for what its worth ; at least people get to talk to somebody.
I think that if you need to rely on a stranger to talk with you for money.. the problem is quite obvious :smile:

You lack people in your life.
In most cases  , this happens because people tend to get too distracted with other things.
You can call it survival.. but i dont think I will.
If you have money to pay a shrink.. you're already doing good enough.
But.. you just want more dont you.

And.. to keep you going .. without having to stop back and look at your life and  remember when you stopped actually LIVING and became a robot..
You go and have a chit chat with someone who deals with people like you all the time..
You get some pills.. get stupid..
carry on.

I know im not coming up with massive evidence here or anything like that..
But  come one.. you know what im talking about .. and it really does happen.

On one hand.. this entire science is like a big drug machine.

On the other..
You actually now have an authority that can , based on this science , have a decision about your individual freedom .
Your job requires you to fit a certain norm.. and ..
You have the schools that declare children ADD or ADHD and basically croke them up with amphetamines.

Once you take your eyes off the science behind it.. and look at the impact it has on society.. it doesnt take you very long to realize that it is embedded within the social structure in the very same manner some other institutions are that many of us have come not to appreciate any more because of they so openly or secretly exploit us.

>>Psychology includes many sub-fields of study and applications concerned with such areas as human development, sports, health, industry, media and law.

...

Also.. another interesting thing to notice when compared to other applicable sciences..

Experimental psychology was only done  in the medieval Islam , untill the first half of the 20th century ... and now you see what kind of impat and level of practice it has.

Out of all the people..
And all this time weve been here..  ?

While.. you can trace back the study of psychology in philosophical context all the way back to ancient egypt , greece .. india.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: laserpig]
    #10253851 -

psychology is fundamentally flawed. there is no possible way to create an accurate macro model of human behavior... why? because there is no such thing.

i remember one of my psychology classes... and the teacher did the carrot trick... keep asking someone to add up or subtract quick simple equations so they equal 7 and after a minute of this quickly ask them what vegetable they are thinking of and they will most likely say carrot.

worked 1 out of 3.

anyway... there isnt a science to deducing peoples personalities. that is just experience. I dont think people become psychologists to help people... they think it gives them some upper hand on the rest of us.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #10253882 -

YawningAnus said:
psychology is fundamentally flawed. there is no possible way to create an accurate macro model of human behavior... why? because there is no such thing.

i remember one of my psychology classes... and the teacher did the carrot trick... keep asking someone to add up or subtract quick simple equations so they equal 7 and after a minute of this quickly ask them what vegetable they are thinking of and they will most likely say carrot.

worked 1 out of 3.

anyway... there isnt a science to deducing peoples personalities. that is just experience. I dont think people become psychologists to help people... they think it gives them some upper hand on the rest of us.


:thumbup:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Poid]
    #10254342 -

Poid said:
sterbeklang said:
All I'm saying is it's not worth the money... yet.


Portal:Psychology - Wikipedia

:naughty:


Yeah, go there and learn it for free.  Looks like all the same shit I paid for when I got my degree in it.  :wink:


--------------------

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10254551 -

It's always interesting to see where people stand about psychology.

I hope to get a chance to address some of these posts a little later today.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10254795 -

It's true, I took psychology when I went to college, and everything I learned there was in Wikipedia.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Poid]
    #10254988 -

Psychology is pretty flawed in its approach. They try to be scientific. In order to study the mind more creative approaches are required... Eg taking drugs and/or studying your own mind.

They are getting somewhere.. but really slowly. I dont quite know why it is so slow, but I have a feeling it is because faculties want to be safe with the research they fund so most research goes into embellishing on accepted theories rather than on research that seeks to raise new paradigms


--------------------

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10255031 -

Also, I'd imagine that it's kind of hard to get other people to agree to being researched on:

--------------

Lab rat: Hey, why the fuck are you just sitting there staring at me and writing shit down on a notepad?


Psychologist: Don't mind me, I'm just studying and analyzing your every move.
:shoosh:

-------------

Talk about awkward...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: laserpig]
    #10255963 -

laserpig said:
I think psychology started out horrendously, but is in some ways getting better. The main problem with psychologists is their insane belief that an allegory counts as science

And yet Freud's id, ego, superego "model" of the mind is still talked about after all these decades. Look at a brain: there is no id in there. That is not a thing.




I cut out your example because I didn't understand what you were getting at. Even without it, I don't understand. Are you saying that because we can't identify where the Id, Ego, and Superego as physical components of the brain, they don't exist?

Localization was a great start to our understanding of neuropsychology, but it is not the end all be all to theoretical answers. Look into equipotentiality, a more recent (and more complex) neuropsychological view of intellectual functioning.

Freud's theory was based off of the techniques available to him at the time. Namely observation. They are given credibility not because of blind faith, but because they have clinical utility. Freud's ideas were hugely controversial, and if they didn't provide usable information, do you think they would have stuck around?

We now have more advanced techniques, and the idea of using strict psychoanalysis is dated. But the theoretical structure still provides a useful starting place for individuals interested in further exploration of the field. All theories can be related back to psychoanalytic theory, and likewise psychoanalytic theory can be translated into other theories.

Take from that what you will.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Kickle]
    #10256084 -

I'm saying that I find the idea of competing mini-consciousnesses in your head fundamentally absurd.

The brain is a complex input-output machine with an astounding variety of functions. The only real difference between our brains and an insect's brain (I know they don't technically have a central nervous system, but that's irrelevant) is scale. To ascribe moral and amoral behavior complexes and all those other psychology ideas to an insect makes absolutely no sense, because they're so simple that they're basically little robots -- amazingly well designed little robots. My view is that we are not fundamentally different. We're just amazingly well designed big robots.

Morality and restraint and all that play an enormous role in models of psychology, but these are totally imaginary inventions that human society just happened to come up with. Do define behavior in terms of something imaginary is necessarily to get it wrong.

What we ought to look at if we want to understand the nature of thought (and therefore behavior as behavior is just people acting on their thoughts) is basically organic neural network theory. We need to take some of what we know about memory and emotion and build a theory that links this knowledge to the brain's actual circuitry. Any theory of psychology which thinks it can ignore the biological processes which produce consciousness is no more than an arbitrary guess.

EDIT: to directly answer your question, yes. I'm saying that if we can't link them to any actual physical processes then it would be asinine to assume the existence of id, ego, and superego. I'm not saying they're going to be brain regions -- the brain is a machine of pathways, not boxes -- but if we can't figure out how they relate to emergent behavior of our neural system then we've got no reason to assume they're meaningful concepts in a scientific sense. Though as an allegory I guess the claim could be made that they hold some value. But I stand by what I said: allegory is not science.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

Edited by laserpig (04/29/09 01:55 PM)

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: laserpig]
    #10256093 -

laserpig said:
I'm saying that I find the idea of competing mini-consciousnesses in your head fundamentally absurd.


The brain is a modular system of competing neural networks according to the latest theories.  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: jivJaN]
    #10256148 -

jivJaN said:
My opinion is.. that this kind of science needs to be very exact before putting into motion.

Medical doctors wont operate on the brain or heart simply because they have a theory and think it might work.
On the other hand.. i think psychology does that.
It has been prematurely declared as an official and credible science to learn and practice on other people.



Wait... wait...
How did the first medical doctor who performed a brain surgery do it, then?
How did the first heart surgeon?
Surely not because they had a theory that they thought would work.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.


jivJaN said:
I hear a lot of you guys say how for what its worth ; at least people get to talk to somebody.
I think that if you need to rely on a stranger to talk with you for money.. the problem is quite obvious :smile:

You lack people in your life.
In most cases  , this happens because people tend to get too distracted with other things.
You can call it survival.. but i dont think I will.
If you have money to pay a shrink.. you're already doing good enough.
But.. you just want more dont you.

And.. to keep you going .. without having to stop back and look at your life and  remember when you stopped actually LIVING and became a robot..
You go and have a chit chat with someone who deals with people like you all the time..
You get some pills.. get stupid..
carry on.



Actually, getting to talk to somebody is FAR less effective than empirically supported treatments. That's something that psychologists, since Rogers, have looked at. What is it about the therapeutic relationship that is useful? Is it just having a warm individual to talk to, etc.?

Now, a lot of studies will be set up so:

Group 1: Receives standardized treatment x
Group 2: Attention-only control (individuals meet with a therapist, but no treatment is applied)

If there is no difference between the groups, the treatment is considered an utter failure.

Most studies show efficacy rates of around 75%, which means that those receiving treatment report more improvement with the treatment, than 75% of those who just receive the attention.

Also: Insurance provides mental health services. It's not the dated psychoanalysis of old which only the extremely rich could afford. Treatments are brief and much quicker. Most finish in 12 sessions at 1 session per week. A psychologist can request to lengthen the course of treatment if issues remain unresolved, but they must provide convincing evidence to the insurance companies, otherwise funding will be cut.

Quote:
I know im not coming up with massive evidence here or anything like that..
But  come one.. you know what im talking about .. and it really does happen.

On one hand.. this entire science is like a big drug machine.



You're thinking of psychiatry, not psychology when you refer to drugs.

Quote:
On the other..
You actually now have an authority that can , based on this science , have a decision about your individual freedom .
Your job requires you to fit a certain norm.. and ..
You have the schools that declare children ADD or ADHD and basically croke them up with amphetamines.

Once you take your eyes off the science behind it.. and look at the impact it has on society.. it doesnt take you very long to realize that it is embedded within the social structure in the very same manner some other institutions are that many of us have come not to appreciate any more because of they so openly or secretly exploit us.



You're mixing the fields now, but I think I can address some of this. Psychology only impedes on individual freedom when society dictates it is 'ok' to do so. E.g., suicide attempts, insanity pleas, drug arrests. Believe me, I think most psychologists would prefer not to interfere with a lot of these cases, because there is a wide range of research regarding motivation as a predictor in therapeutic success. If someone doesn't want to be there, they aren't going to see the same results. Unfortunately, they still see some results, and that's better than nothing (in the eyes of society) for individuals who are going against the grain of society.

Psychology operates as a subset of society, not a dictator of. Psychology operates around individual feelings of distress (for the most part). If an individual isn't feeling distressed, psychology doesn't want to change you, but might rather be interested in what it is that allows you to not feel distressed. Social psychology has been great in this area. I hope you'll read a future post of mine on social psychology and positive illusions. 

Quote:
>>Psychology includes many sub-fields of study and applications concerned with such areas as human development, sports, health, industry, media and law.

...



Yes, the mind is present in all of these aspects, so it makes sense. If one wants to understand human behavior, they certainly need to look at as many aspects as they can, not just the ones involving negative behavior.

I for one am glad that psychology is taking more steps to view things in a positive light. Appreciating those aspects of humanity which allow us to achieve greatness.

Quote:
Also.. another interesting thing to notice when compared to other applicable sciences..

Experimental psychology was only done  in the medieval Islam , untill the first half of the 20th century ... and now you see what kind of impat and level of practice it has.

Out of all the people..
And all this time weve been here..  ?

While.. you can trace back the study of psychology in philosophical context all the way back to ancient egypt , greece .. india.


Experimental psychology being.... ?
It wasn't until fairly recently that we even understood the function of the brain in thoughts. Of course up until that point you're only going to have philosophical dialogue about the nature of the mind. The Greeks believed depression (melancholy) was a result of fluids in the body being off balance. You work with the knowledge you have.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #10256236 -

YawningAnus said:
psychology is fundamentally flawed. there is no possible way to create an accurate macro model of human behavior... why? because there is no such thing.

i remember one of my psychology classes... and the teacher did the carrot trick... keep asking someone to add up or subtract quick simple equations so they equal 7 and after a minute of this quickly ask them what vegetable they are thinking of and they will most likely say carrot.

worked 1 out of 3.

anyway... there isnt a science to deducing peoples personalities. that is just experience. I dont think people become psychologists to help people... they think it gives them some upper hand on the rest of us.



Universals characteristics in humans are few and psychologists are very aware of this. I'm not entirely sure why you think the field believes otherwise. Maybe you could explain that?

Theories explain patterns of behavior that are noted in a population. Cultural factors should be noted when taking a theory into consideration. There are many, many theories. Each theory has its own strengths and weaknesses, and due to the complexity of humans, no one theory can explain all cases or scenarios. That's why therapists most often refer to themselves as eclectic. They apply the theory that best suits the presenting situation. Sometimes a blend of theories is necessary.

And the example of some pop psychology, are you trying to say that therapy is akin to a teaching technique in what sounds like a beginning level psychology course? If so, I'm afraid you're mistaken. 


You might be right about some psychologists just wanting the upper hand that comes with authoritative positions. It's your responsibility as a consumer (or potential consumer) to say fuck off to those people. There are a lot of genuinely good people in the field, and models of emotional regulation related to empathy explain their behavior much better than some egotistical desire for power.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: laserpig]
    #10256278 -

laserpig said:
I'm saying that I find the idea of competing mini-consciousnesses in your head fundamentally absurd.

The brain is a complex input-output machine with an astounding variety of functions. The only real difference between our brains and an insect's brain (I know they don't technically have a central nervous system, but that's irrelevant) is scale. To ascribe moral and amoral behavior complexes and all those other psychology ideas to an insect makes absolutely no sense, because they're so simple that they're basically little robots -- amazingly well designed little robots. My view is that we are not fundamentally different. We're just amazingly well designed big robots.

Morality and restraint and all that play an enormous role in models of psychology, but these are totally imaginary inventions that human society just happened to come up with. Do define behavior in terms of something imaginary is necessarily to get it wrong.

What we ought to look at if we want to understand the nature of thought (and therefore behavior as behavior is just people acting on their thoughts) is basically organic neural network theory. We need to take some of what we know about memory and emotion and build a theory that links this knowledge to the brain's actual circuitry. Any theory of psychology which thinks it can ignore the biological processes which produce consciousness is no more than an arbitrary guess.

EDIT: to directly answer your question, yes. I'm saying that if we can't link them to any actual physical processes then it would be asinine to assume the existence of id, ego, and superego. I'm not saying they're going to be brain regions -- the brain is a machine of pathways, not boxes -- but if we can't figure out how they relate to emergent behavior of our neural system then we've got no reason to assume they're meaningful concepts in a scientific sense. Though as an allegory I guess the claim could be made that they hold some value. But I stand by what I said: allegory is not science.



I get what you're saying. I would dispute the "because we haven't found a link, one doesn't exist" argument as being presumptive though.

Also, Freud is used mostly as a philosophical centerpiece more than anything. The field doesn't revolve around him. A psychologist is a doctor of philosophy after all, so it would be of benefit to know some of the philosophical roots of more modern day theorists. 

I agree that Freud's work is not conducive to scientific exploration, and that's why strict psychoanalysis has all but disappeared. But if you're going to tell me that behaviorist principles are not scientific, I'm going to call bullshit on you.

You can't focus on what you don't like, and ignore the rest. Psychology is a HUGE field.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: Kickle]
    #10258800 -

I would like to put emphasis ojn the fact that Freud is NOT considered valid at all by modern psychology. However he is the most dominant view of the psyche across the last hundred or so years. thus it is important to study, and then to discard. If you are every tought by a psychologist that there is an ID and an EGO and SUPEREGO then they are not qualified psychologists... or they shouldnt be.


--------------------

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: skatealex2]
    #10259100 -

I was wondering; psych majors, how much emphasis is put on the different theorists?

Would you say the basic approach is discursive, usually emphasizing varying opinions, or more scientific? 

Do you read from anthologies or textbooks?


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: Psychology as a whole- Do you buy it? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10259264 -

Depends on the school, but most accredited universities adopt the 'boulder model' which is the scientist-practitioner model. The emphasis is on knowing the clinical theories as well as being able to produce novel research to aid the field.

I've never read from anything but a textbook.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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