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The experimental knowledge of the Christian
    #9889018 -

Trying to describe to someone what it is like being a Christian is simply impossible.  It is like trying to describe a Salvia trip to someone who has never done Salvia.  Or riding a roller coaster to someone who has never ridden one.  They may hear the words, but will never have the experimental knowledge of the experience, until they actually experience it.

Prior to my conversion, I had many notions of what being a Christian must consist of in experience.  These all were vain speculations that ended up being false.

I would have never imagined how things are after my conversion.  It is a totally alien experience to the unconverted. 

The Christian has a witness within himself of a new nature.  Also the witness of the Holy Spirit that indwells the Christian.  These things will sound odd to someone who has never experienced it.  The Christian at conversion comes into Holy Spirit conviction.  This happened to me and I did not know what was going on when it was happening.  In fact, most so called Christians have never been converted and have no true experience of this.  The Holy Spirit convicts (convinces) the person being converted of the true nature of who they are by nature (unrighteous), and who God is (perfectly righteous).  After that the gospel truth is revealed and a new nature implanted. 

On a side note, I am amazed at the number of people who go along with what they are told about religion, yet have no experience or knowledge about what they claim to be.  For example, I see many people with ashes on their heads, so I ask them about what their church teaches.  To my amazement, they actually do not even know the doctrine of their own church.  They are simply going through motions without even knowing why!  Astonishing!  They spend time and money on something that they don't even know about, and they don't even care to find out!  Wow.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: fivepointer]
    #9889174 -

Would you mind explaining the events that caused your conversion?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: deCypher]
    #9889320 -

deCypher said:
Would you mind explaining the events that caused your conversion?


I was an agnostic my whole life, never raised with any religion.  Some people I work with were self-described Christians.  I am naturally curious about these things so i would ask them to explain it to me.  I never did get a straight answer from them.  They told me that I had to "accept Jesus" (whatever that meant) and I would be a Christian.  So after a while I "accepted" and now they told me I was a Christian.  I now know that I was NOT a Christian at that time.  They simply told me what people had told them, but they had never been converted, (and to this day are still not converted).  So a lady I worked with bought me a Bible, which to me seemed to have no use, since I was told I am a Christian.  I would try to read the Bible and it made no sense.  I would try to listen to anyone that could explain what this was all about, I tried TV, radio, internet, it all was useless.  So I tried the best I could to follow what I would read in the Bible.  The more I tried to act like a "Christian", the worse I would get in the world.  Little did I know I was coming into Holy Spirit conviction.  This went on for about two months, I was really confused.  The Spirit shows the person who they are at the deepest level of existence.  This is quite a shock since the vedict is inherently unrighteous.  This is not something that can be changed by an act of the will, since the very will itself is corrupt.  This is why a new spiritual birth is required, to implant a new guiding nature at the deepest level.  This is being born again.

After this I would read the Bible and it made sense.  I knew I was converted, I now had the Spirit guiding me in the scripture and showing me the gospel, what it was.  No man can teach this.  This has to be taught by the Spirit.  It is not by the will of man, but by God's Spirit.

Well I told my co-workers about this, and they didn't want to hear it.  These people who claimed to be Christian actually avoided me.  They are unconverted living the lie of false religion.

My shrooming days ended shortly after this and many grams of pure shroom powder went down the toilet, as well as my astrology books, into the trash.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: fivepointer]
    #9889333 -

So you would say that reading the Bible and acting on its guiding principles was the main incurring event to your conversion?

fivepointer said:
My shrooming days ended shortly after this and many grams of pure shroom powder went down the toilet, as well as my astrology books, into the trash.


Do you consider magic mushrooms to not be suitable for a true Christian?  Or are they simply not necessary?  How would you compare coming into Holy Spirit conviction with the spiritual gnosis found from psychedelics?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: deCypher]
    #9889338 -

Did you accept jesus into your heart or did you accept the message he gave?

I ask this because, accepting a dead person from the past into your heart means absolutely nothing. If you understand the meaning and the message given and take that to heart, then you're on the right progress. I don't believe i need to join a specific religion to have faith and specific understanding on the message of love. I understand a lot of people join religions because they want to find the meaning of their life. Do they not know heaven can be only found within yourself first before you try to change the outside to create heaven? Just love one another.

"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

I agree. We need to stop idolizing the image and understand these words instead of putting the words to a corrupted image and thus having bias against religion and the people.

Edited by jvm (03/01/09 10:54 AM)

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: jvm]
    #9889734 -

What is the main purpose of religion? Unification of humanity. And like Jesus said, this is only possible if we treat eachother as we would treat ourselves. So in order to unify all of humanity, each of us individually needs to convert our own personality.

But by calling yourself a converted Christian, you do not only divide humanity into two different factions, christians and non-christians, but you also stop your own personal progress by claiming you are already there, you are already converted and no further conversion is needed. I hope you can see how this attitude is causing a distortion in the message leading to the exact opposite what the message was originally aiming for..

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: jvm]
    #9889843 -

jvm said:
Did you accept jesus into your heart or did you accept the message he gave?

I ask this because, accepting a dead person from the past into your heart means absolutely nothing.


I've accepted Christ into my heart.  Jesus was the vessel for the eternal Logos.  So it's not completely meaningless to accept him into your heart.  And it's certainly more than just accepting his message.  The Buddha was a messenger, and I admire his message.  But that's different from Jesus Christ.  As Karl Barth once said: "Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way."  This is actually not all different from the Hindu practice of bhakti yoga.


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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: Silversoul]
    #9889887 -

Silversoul said:
jvm said:
Did you accept jesus into your heart or did you accept the message he gave?

I ask this because, accepting a dead person from the past into your heart means absolutely nothing.


I've accepted Christ into my heart.  Jesus was the vessel for the eternal Logos.  So it's not completely meaningless to accept him into your heart.  And it's certainly more than just accepting his message.  The Buddha was a messenger, and I admire his message.  But that's different from Jesus Christ.  As Karl Barth once said: "Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way."  This is actually not all different from the Hindu practice of bhakti yoga.


I meant accepting the image of him. I can say i accept jesus into my heart but if i don't know his message then what is the point of accepting and idolizing the person without understanding the message. I brought it up because i remember a time when i was younger and was basically asked to 'accept jesus in your heart'. Why? I didn't know the message back then nor did i care. Its how people present themselves to trying to spread these things. I didn't care because of how it was presented forth to me. I accept the love of christ in my heart because i understand how much it is needed.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: Silversoul]
    #9889910 -

Quote:
Silversoul said: And it's certainly more than just accepting his message.  The Buddha was a messenger, and I admire his message.  But that's different from Jesus Christ.  As Karl Barth once said: "Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way."


I don't really understand this.  How can a man be a way?

I can see Jesus Christ as a very powerful symbol, certainly, and perhaps a useful talisman in banishing one's psychological/spiritual demons, but ultimately the transubstantiation inherent in either the physical Eucharist or the metaphorical consumption of Jesus' message does not seem to require the acceptance of the man himself (and I'm still unclear as to what this precisely means).

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: deCypher]
    #9889952 -

deCypher said:
I don't really understand this.  How can a man be a way?


You can't understand it without experiencing it.


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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: Silversoul]
    #9889965 -

Sure, and I'm not one to deny phenomenological experience, but I'm disinclined to believe that experiencing Jesus as the way precludes experiencing Buddha as the way, or any other similar spiritual messenger.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: deCypher]
    #9890002 -

deCypher said:
Sure, and I'm not one to deny phenomenological experience, but I'm disinclined to believe that experiencing Jesus as the way precludes experiencing Buddha as the way, or any other similar spiritual messenger.


Buddhists follow the message of the Buddha.  Christians follow Christ.  There's a difference there.  But that difference is also why the two are not incompatible.  Jesus being the Christ is not incompatible with Siddhartha Gautama being enlightened.  To understand this, consider this quote by St. Paul:

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." - Galtatians 2:20


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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: deCypher]
    #9890007 -

deCypher said:
So you would say that reading the Bible and acting on its guiding principles was the main incurring event to your conversion?



Yes.  I believe God uses the means of the Word to bring conversion; the Holy Spirit must apply it to the heart.


deCypher said:
fivepointer said:
My shrooming days ended shortly after this and many grams of pure shroom powder went down the toilet, as well as my astrology books, into the trash.


Do you consider magic mushrooms to not be suitable for a true Christian?  Or are they simply not necessary?  How would you compare coming into Holy Spirit conviction with the spiritual gnosis found from psychedelics?



I no longer feel the need to get deranged like I did prior to conversion.  Christians are told to be sound minded and avoid worldly ways such as drunkenness. Also we are told to obey those in authority (shrooms being illegal) and give no appearance of evil.  I think all plants and fungi have been created by God for man's use though.

I do not believe God uses the means of psychedelics to bring about spiritual truth.  Truth is only found in the scripture.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: Silversoul]
    #9890130 -

Silversoul said:
Buddhists follow the message of the Buddha.  Christians follow Christ.


This seems more like linguistics than anything else.  Christians follow Christ's message, do they not?

I presume you're getting at more the experience or gnosis of accepting Christ, though.  Sure, this is indeed possible.  But what prevents a person from accepting the compassion and serene enlightenment of Buddha in the same fashion?  It seems Christ is just a categorical label here; such quotes as "Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way" seem to produce far more strife and dissension than ought to be found in any spiritual path.  Not to mention any practitioner of Sufism would disagree.

Quote:
fivepointer said: Also we are told to obey those in authority (shrooms being illegal)


I take it then you disapprove of civil disobedience?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: deCypher]
    #9890236 -

deCypher said:
Silversoul said:
Buddhists follow the message of the Buddha.  Christians follow Christ.


This seems more like linguistics than anything else.  Christians follow Christ's message, do they not?


The message is important, what is even more important is one's relationship with Christ.

Quote:
I presume you're getting at more the experience or gnosis of accepting Christ, though.  Sure, this is indeed possible.  But what prevents a person from accepting the compassion and serene enlightenment of Buddha in the same fashion?


Mainly the fact that Buddhism does not teach such a thing.  The one possible exception I can think of is Pure Land Buddhism.

Quote:
It seems Christ is just a categorical label here; such quotes as "Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way" seem to produce far more strife and dissension than ought to be found in any spiritual path.


It depends on how you read it.  I don't fully agree with Karl Barth's theology, but I used that quote to illustrate how being a Christian is not simply about following the message of Jesus.

Quote:
Not to mention any practitioner of Sufism would disagree.


They're not Christian, so I don't see why they wouldn't disagree.  And that's fine by me.  There's no reason why religious pluralism has to preclude disagreements.


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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: Silversoul]
    #9890270 -

Silversoul said:
jvm said:
Did you accept jesus into your heart or did you accept the message he gave?

I ask this because, accepting a dead person from the past into your heart means absolutely nothing.


I've accepted Christ into my heart.  Jesus was the vessel for the eternal Logos.  So it's not completely meaningless to accept him into your heart.  And it's certainly more than just accepting his message.  The Buddha was a messenger, and I admire his message.  But that's different from Jesus Christ.  As Karl Barth once said: "Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way."  This is actually not all different from the Hindu practice of bhakti yoga.


"Accepting into your heart", how does one do this?  What does accepting entail?  How do you know when you have accepted sufficiently? Is salvation an open offer that hinges on acceptance or rejection?  Do you have experimental knowledge of conversion?

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: fivepointer]
    #9890366 -

fivepointer said:
"Accepting into your heart", how does one do this?  What does accepting entail?  How do you know when you have accepted sufficiently? Is salvation an open offer that hinges on acceptance or rejection?  Do you have experimental knowledge of conversion?


Such questions indicate one whose faith is not truly experiential.


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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: Silversoul]
    #9890471 -

I would think you would be glad to share your experience instead of dodging the questions if you had experienced the truth.

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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: fivepointer]
    #9890493 -

Sorry if I sound blunt, but these questions of yours are trying to analyze something which transcends analysis.  The experience of Christ is not something which can be nitpicked apart in this way.  It is a self-evident truth to those who have such experience.


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Re: The experimental knowledge of the Christian [Re: Silversoul] * 1
    #9890684 -

Just don't come to my house trying to sell me your delusion.

I'm content with my own.


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Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it.

  ~Albert Einstein.

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