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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Duality Trap
    #5726020 - 06/08/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

3rd and final revision:
The church has been responsible, mainly, for evil and suppression of progress.

Did the church create Christianity for that express purpose?

If so, then what does that make their conception of Satan, given that they use God to persecute and control?

Now we have Christ, who has teachings completely relevant to peace, so that is one good thing.

But if the Bible is and always has been corrupted, was not inspired divine word, was rather just a hodgepodge of a mess to keep people in line.... then we have this modern day God which is worshipped, who in actuality is used to justify atrocities (and to this very day this God is still used to justify wars and killings and not just in Christianity)

so then what is the real God? Do we just use their terminologies and find peace? Do we worship the same God that they claim to and just call them liars?

Is an evil man's conception of evil still evil? Or is an evil man's conception of evil rightesousness?

Why is there such extremely discursive duality in Christianity? Why can't it just be a complete and total story about peace and leave all the fear mongering and hate and war out of it? Why is war in the Bible?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 11:48 AM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Satan ? [Re: leery11]
    #5726135 - 06/08/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

IMHO Satan represents the archetype of all that is evil and primary. We, as human beings, incorporate such dark side, but we are capable of balance it with the side of light and good. Our emotions and actions drift along both parts, just like the yin and yang. Good and evil are opposite forces of change which complement and cyclically give rise to one another.

As i see it, one must always consider the dark side, we must know it, comprehend it, then try to control it. Knowledge is power, refusing ones dark side is to refuse knowledge itself. Accepting its existence in our nature is not falling to its hands, much the contrary, it's knowing you are human and also capable of doing good. Know your enemy ...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Satan ? [Re: leery11]
    #5726212 - 06/08/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
I feel like I don't have any free will and am not sure if I should post this but it's troubling my conceptual mind.

If we blame all evil on Satan, how are we free to stop sinning? If we blame all evil on a force, how are we ever to be free from that force?

It is a Jungian Shadow given to the entire planet.

This leads me to ask, is Satan even real? Should he be embraced (not the literal i want to kill people, sacrifice virgins, start wars, kind of way) so that any notion of a corrupting evil one can be transcended......

shadow integration?

I mean, if Bush is waging war for God, then isn't Satan God? Or Isn't God Satan? Don't they both mean only what is symbolized in the heads of men?

More evil has been done in Jesus's name than Satan's hasn't it? Yet we say Satan is evil.

Maybe Satan is nothing but a shadow... the shadow of God? I dunno.

I woke up today, read the Bible and just couldn't find sense in it so I said God just show me the truth even if you have to lead me away from the Bible.

Then I read a book my mom gave me that made me feel confident about entheogens and liberal values (from a Christian author)

then the notion of Satan got into me..... the whole website that sprang up saying he is the actual compassionate God, the God that the authorities worship is the evil one, the ones their churces have us worship is the evil one.

But I don't want to worship Satan, that seems so silly....... is it not just a way to push you through the shadow so you can think on your own free from dogma?

I don't like the number 666......

Nor do I like the word Satan. But here I am entertaining these ideas and I cannot suppress them, for that is self suppression.

I do not ever want to kill a person, cause any harm or do any evil. I want love and I wonder.....

I wonder about these things.
anyone know what I mean?
anyone remember the link to that site?

Christ is good ultimately..... his lessons on loving your enemy are great, but I have this Satan notion running through my head right now...... not as an evil being ... just as a collective whipping boy of humans and the church... maybe tacked into the Bible to keep us from being rational and free?

Hummmm who knows.... i don't feel like i have free will though.




Think of it this way, satan is the source of a deasease, and humans ged infected. The infected ones can be either cured or isolated.
Jesus was sent to cure the infected if they want to accept it, if they don't, then they simply get left behind to rot in the ground.
It's not like some people don't get thje chance, everyone gets the chance to cure themselfs, but some reject it

In order to better understand the origins of Christianity and Judaism, one must free themself from the Catholic concept of eternal damnation and punishment, and understand that Jehowah works as a farmer. And like any farmer, he picks the fruit that is good and takes it, and throws away the fruit that is rotten.
And like every farmer, he plants the seeds, but the pests invade the seeds corrupting some fruit, he uses measures, but as any farmer, he has no complete control of the growth of this fruit, because when he planted the tree, he limited himself by giving people free will, something where he choses not to get involved.

Many people ask, why does he simply not forgive everyone and give them thousand chances.
Well, he is making a pie of this fruit, and what kind of cook would put rotten fruit in a pie? It would taste bad.
It's really nothing personal when you throw away a rotten apple, because it simply is not suited for the pie.

The pie is kingdom of heaven on earth, the original earth as it should have been in his mind, once all that is infected by satan is picked out, that which remained pure will be chosen for the final version of the garden of earth.
Animals and plants will be the richness of the planet, and human beings, finally being the image of their creator will be the guardians of this garden, a jewl in space.

Instead of being given earth, humans will have to earn it to inherit it.

It's all really simple, yet numerous churches complicate the things will threats of punisment, eternal damnation, rituals, repetitive praying like pagans etc.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: Satan ? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5726275 - 06/08/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

so you have what you say, and it works.

but what if someone says that people are lazy, Christianity is a tool of oppression, and therefore, evil...

and that there is no such driving force as Satan corrupting our ways? Then this Satan put into the Bible is sort of similar to HELL in that its a method of fear to disempower the individual's capacity to be a functioning spiritual person.

for instance people say, sex is of the devil. I don't think so.

I think war, consumerism, materialism, are all of the "devil".

People say war is of the devil, yet war is carried out for the sake of Christ and for the sake of God.

I mean imagine it, imagine if every time you got horny it wasn't your physiology tempting you, it was the DEVIL!!!! You would freak out and think you were being posessed, and you would beg God for his mercy to deliver you... but you would never to sit down and breathe into your sexual desire and understand it for what it is, a part of you.

You would never think to integrate your base primitive desires, explore them, transcend them, and move on to higher purposes... instead you keep reaching up for that silvery cloud but you have a demon entangling your feet.

It really depends on what you attribute to Satan. There is much evil in the world..... and it could then be considered a corrupting force... but at the same time it's like a trash dumpster for all the things that mundane humans refuse to ackonwladge about themselves.....

a fear tool, right?

No religoius or political authority has come out to say "we must kill in the name of Satan!" no they do it in the name of God.

I dunno just stuff to think about. When you don't want to be a Christian anymore because it doesn't make sense to you, the authorities have two huge obstacles in your path to freedom:
hell, and Satan.

the corrupt church, that is.

Jesus is fine, but the debate is not from within the confines of scriputral dogma... that's not what I'm addressing....

Satan as a shadow that doesn't exist, but is used as a boogeyman to keep people submissive?

Satan locks you away from a part of yourself. For example if an establishment said that liberal ideas were of Satan, people would suppress the liberal ideas they currently have. If they said popular culture was of Satan (which it might arguably be, Satan in this case referring to depravity) then people would suppress their desire to listen to popular culture.

To say that there is this extremely powerful force constantly trying to corrupt you on one shoulder, and a God to be feared that will condemn you if you screw up on the other shoulder... what are you to do?

It seems to be a construction of fear programming... not that God actually is that vengeful, just that the authorities don't want you to be saved, comforted, and uplifted with love, they want you to be scared and submissive... eh?

science is of the devil.
questioning is of the devil
etc.......


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 10:55 AM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Satan ? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5726295 - 06/08/06 10:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

First free will is a realitive concept, we are only free to the the circumstances that are bestowed on us, people can be genetically immoral, already applying fate to the equation

About satan, I hear people saying that we must accept satan as something real, this is not true, satan should never be consider a valid entity even if he is. One must ponder the role of satan, To understand and validate his existence is to give him undo power, the best thing to deminish the power satan, is not even acknowledge his existence as being valid. For satan represents everthing that is false, dellusion, error, wrong, darkness, voidness, torture and pain, trickery, lies, deceit. Satan has no real power other than the power we give him. He can only influence us to think he is real and a valid entity that can help. If you look at the exorists on the history channel, those people are only possessed because they believe it. Its so pathetic that they would relinquish their will to satan, In a sense they are possessed but at the same time they're only acting out their own frustations and the frauduants of satan. The biggest supporters of satan are the self professed victims, for they hold no ownership of their actions but relinquish all their their will to satan. Me even involving myself deep within this discussion of him is giving him undo credit. If you look at it black and white, God is real, Satan is a dellusion, nothing more.


Edited by capliberty (06/08/06 11:01 AM)


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Satan ? [Re: capliberty]
    #5726342 - 06/08/06 11:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I guess you guys aren't grasping what I'm trying to say.

You're right, but what if there is no evil being, rather it is an illusory "demon" placed in a fictional manner to keep you afraid and following their religious doctrine?

Then what would this being be, if all the evil attributed to him is not his at all? A way out of conditioning?

One would be at disadvantage to give something evil power by giving evil a name...... and then turning to that name in fear.

But what if it's all flip-flopped? Do you get me? You definitely want to stay away from evil but I don't know about how the planet Earth uses "Satan" as an excuse, yet they continue using their religion to spread intolerance (like for example the thread on real Christians... most Christians are just part of a political control movement, there are very few who become like Christ).

I don't know it just depends. It actually seems very relative.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 11:17 AM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Satan ? [Re: leery11]
    #5726524 - 06/08/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Religion is what it is, man made doctrine, even if it was interpreted from prophets, Religion I view is a vehicle to seek the truth, its not the all encompassing truth. You know well as I, that certain religious text are always misinterpreted, hold invalid prospectives, and ultimately promote a narrow minded view of the whole. But within its text it spread good messages to live by, and also a profound and powerful philosophy, but this doesn't make it anymore valid. Not to discredit religion, I do feel their is truth within religions,

Now with that said how does this tie into the notion of Satan and evil. Well you know that on the spiritual plane we readily accept the existence of good and evil, but on the scientific plane it could be argued no more as neurological impulses being interpreted a certain way. We're merely attacted to pleasure and repulsed by pain yet we do not know the true nature of each. You can even argue any hallucination of the mind or any so called miracle as being valid proof, as an act of our own manifestation of our own imagination thus making it invalid as proof. I think this is were alot of religions and dogma was born. Someone proclaimed this or that to be real because in their own imagination it was. Like you said its all very relative. Anything can be argued as being the truth. To me it seems all things contain truth, wisdom, but yet all things have their disposition. Meaning its not all encompassing. Philosophy in general seems to be a valid mediator in finding the truth because it holds no stance on any particular dogma, yet it falls under the disposition of science. Meaning that it undermines the power of faith. Being skeptical is limited in power by its own nature.

Thats why we adopt religions, for we seek the ultimate power and maybe this were Satan finds his niche, for our underlining motivation in seeking truth and spirituality maynot be that virtuous, we're trying to find other means to derive power which then leads to selfish greed, If you even look at all the spiritual philosophy forums, and the people who engage them often, they all validate themselves with much self importance by just even their attitudes, what can someone do to a person thats spiritual and Christ like or whatever; Nothing. Anyways to avoid evil is impossible even I think to Jesus himself, He was blameless in his generation, did not make him totally blameless.


Edited by capliberty (06/08/06 12:35 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Satan ? *DELETED* [Re: leery11]
    #5726555 - 06/08/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

To add to what Maia said and others say about our having "dark sides" I want to say that our dark sides are only places where love hasn't found its way into yet, or was forgotten. I just did a post on this is P&S.

If you want to understand the archetype of Satan leery, understand more about loves presence and when its presence is forgotten. Satan would be the archetype of love forgotten, darkness, fear.

Where there is love, the darkness, and fear looses its hold and grip on us. It's not so much a force of its own as much as it is raw energy in panic, having lost a sense of personal empowerment, having forgotten love, it's true source of power, to make things, light, good, and safe again.

In that panic of the darkness, sense of loss because of forgotten, love it wreaks a lot of damage and destruction, like a caged animal.

It behaves this way because it is angry, and frustrated and confused feeling ripped off of something REALLY GOOD, Really Powerful, and REALLY valuable, and it can't remember what that something is or where to find it and how to get it back. It can go berserk tearing up the self, others, the planet, cosmos, looking for it.

After a while, it feels its search is in vain, there is nothing to find and quits looking for it, stops believing and can then more easily justify its destructive behavior and continues with it.

OR

It sees other people "with it" and feels resentful that they don't have that "something". They looked everywhere "out there" for it and didn't find it. They start to believe, they are just not worthy of having it, don't deserve it. Some because depressed through believing that and others actually start believing things like that must be so because they are just inherently evil, and that false belief, serves to justify their actions.

And OR

They figured, if they don't have "IT" for themselves, they can just steal it away from others to get it. Only problem is, they burn through it quickly and keep having to steal it from others through manipulations. Horrible way to live. Some become spiteful and try to take that elusive something "love" away from anyone who seems to have it. They are so clouded with anger and hate at that point in their spite, they just throw it in the trash. They don;t care anymore. It's been to long and someones gonna pay. They figure, if they can't have it, NO ONE will and everyone will pay for their time without it. That's the vengeful part of it.

I hope this helps you to understand the archetype of Satan better seeing it in this light. I never even got to read your post. I gathered from replies what it was sort of about.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Satan ? *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5726596 - 06/08/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well there is that webpage created by a "high priestess of Satan" who is saying he is the real God of human love and the religions of mankind are evil and have suppressed his name.

or something.

This initially scared me, and I was fearful having even looked at the page in curiosity, but after the passing of 6/6/6 with only one real incident (which is related to Tool and is kind of scary therefore [a volcano evacuation near Jambi]) I evaluated just how much this dogma has me manipulated through fear.

they have me afraid of a number. so afraid that i don't like to do certain kinds of counting meditation that would lead to counting 6 three times in a row.....

they have me afraid of a hell.

they have me afraid of a devil.

and frankly something about "Satan" has brought me peace. This terrified me at first, right after my bad DXM trip, that thinking about Satan and not being afraid of him would take my fear away, my fear of hell away.... how could this make any sense? So I fought it off...

But I realized today that the curiosity is there and it won't go away until satisfied, that I would never choose to send myself to hell or to live an evil and/or hateful life (though I had been sending a lot of hate to TV and you were right about that) so I thought just go ahead and think about Satan all you want.....

it sort of solidified the chi in my lower chakras......

I started to wonder is Satan just the drives of the lower primitive chakras, not bad, but CAN be bad? I mean the root all the way up to the sacral plexus is no path to heaven, far from it....... the best is a competetive animal like state.... but that doesn't mean that the root-solar plexus are wrong, no they are necessary.... just that you have to go higher than that.

and the next one up is Christ right, the heart chakra?

I mean it's like.... I don't want to follow Satan at all... I want to follow the right path. But for some reason I was lead to encountering this concept of Satan not being evil at all.

Also now I don't hate TV or society anymore (though TV's effects bother me) and I feel like it's okay to live in America...

You know who made me afraid? Christians did. Not "Satanists" not the devil..... so is the devil working through Christianity to spread fear?

But you know what? The Christians have armageddon in my head... MARK OF THE BEAST THEY SAY... America is the anti-Christ and you can't accept the mark of the beast... and that is so true isn't it? Maybe I should be afraid of this consumerist society?

The description of the mark of the beast is a definite paralell to our modern times...... I'm not sure how 666 or 616 fits into it though.

Christianity has a lot of fear and I guess Satan was an anti-dote.... by letting me explore and overcome that fear. I mean Jesus, Buddha, Ghandi, Dalai Lama.... there are the kinds of guys to follow and they have good teachings ......

but maybe this devil figure is just a shadow that needs to be stepped through in order to be a free person? Maybe nothing. I do not know much about anything I'm afraid.

I have prayed quite a bit, albeit at times gruffly and impatiently... and the Bible just does not seem to cut it for me........


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 12:44 PM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Satan ? *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5726672 - 06/08/06 01:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It behaves this way because it is angry, and frustrated and confused feeling ripped off of something REALLY GOOD, Really Powerful, and REALLY valuable, and it can't remember what that something is or where to find it and how to get it back. It can go berserk tearing up the self, others, the planet, cosmos, looking for it.

After a while, it feels its search is in vain, there is nothing to find and quits looking for it, stops believing and can then more easily justify its destructive behavior and continues with it.





:thumbup:

If your curious about this then go ahead, venture on, curiosity can kill you as it killed the cat. In fact curiosity is one of its favorite ploys, people are curious about things they don't know, about power and magic, but then find out all too late that they were lead into a trap. Satan or better defined archetype of Satan have you believe that hes not all that bad, that there's something he can offer to the struggle, this is the grasp of evilness in its purest form. I'm a bad struggling confused individual, but I'd never get my confusion and my complexity that mixed to think that pure evil has any merit.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Satan ? *DELETED* [Re: capliberty]
    #5726710 - 06/08/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

pure evil doesn't have any merit and i have no desire to interface with anything that is evil.

i'm not sure you understand what i am saying.

nor do I understand what I am. It all seems to be fictional to me, perhaps I am becoming agnostic again.

if you are a believer in a Christian God as only path what exactly should I be doing to help myself? I have prayed for guidance and direction and it just seems like I'm swallowing a lie to go back to Christianity.

Buddhism was the intiial breadwinner and I still value it quite a bit, though I am interested in entheogens which is kind of taboo for Buddhism and more acceptable within context of the Bible.

The Bible itself I can see some benefit in and now and then read something that catches my fancy, but have a hard time thinking it's the word of God when things the Buddha and various others have said are so much more to the point.

I dunno. I just don't want to worry about "Satan" or hell anymore, that's why I let myself think about "him".

Frankly the Buddhist no god, no devil, no beings in control of your fate but you approach is most agreeable with me intellectually.

I don't want to go against God at all.... I'm just not sure where God wants me to go (or if he exists)!
and after watching the Naked Truth video I have to say... it sure does a good job at painting out the silliness of most religions.

I only need a God if he's real, otherwise I'm talking to myself in a strange manner when I could just go with immediate intuition rather than going through odd gestures using odd names.

The inner God? Yes absolutely I think there is one there though.

Didn't Jesus himself say not to stop seeking til you find? (i'm not entirely sure).

Well what have I found? I've found the rigidity of Biblical dogma to not be in lines with my world view, however the basic principles of alrtuism present are most admirable. Golden rule, loving the enemy. Turning the cheek in pacifism. Good things.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 01:43 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Satan ? [Re: capliberty]
    #5726777 - 06/08/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
First free will is a realitive concept, we are only free to the the circumstances that are bestowed on us, people can be genetically immoral, already applying fate to the equation





Well, I'm talking within the idea of Judeochristian religion, and there every man can chose. Yes some people are born sinfull, and they are called "bad seed" in the Bible.
Of course, even natural born killers sometimes find ways to restrain themself. Some of them actually try to avoid situations where they know would hurt someone.

So how come some people are born just to die because of their genetic sin?

Well, it is mentioned in the Bible that once God created people, the fallen angels Nephilim saw the female humans and came down to fornicate with them creating impurity in their generations. This is basically the reason for the great flood which exterminated all the children of this genetic defiling.
It also goes beyond Judaism, fornication of gods and human females is mentioned in greek mythology too and other religions.

These sons of god were rebels, like Satan, who is the ultimate rebel.

So basically all the suffering in the world comes as a sabotage of the rebel entities, through temptations (like the first sin), and through genetic defiling of the humans whose original pure genes made them like god and his race of angels, only dumber.

So in these religions, death for sin and mass slaughter of humans is really not a punishment, but a fight between these two forces. Rebels screw up the human genes and tempt them into sin, then they are like spoiled food which needs to be thrown away, so god destroys these humans.

God does love the human breed, but they are still his creation, which needs to be perfected, so he throws away those who are screwed up beyond repair by his enemy.

It's like a fight for t-shirts between a mom with a detergent and a messy kid.
The kid runs around making stains on the shirts, the mom runs after him, cleaning the shirts, and throwing away those who can't be cleaned.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Satan ? *DELETED* [Re: leery11]
    #5727268 - 06/08/06 03:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Ya know, Barbara Marciniacks book, Path To Empowerment, really gets into so much of what you have been posting about lately. It help you make sense of all the confusion. I'm ready to just order you a copy myself.:lol:

There's a big difference between the False Ego that starts to believe its God and manipulates and intimidate people through fear to gain power and control over them and......

the person that shifts from out of separation ego and merges awareness with the higher universal self that is aware of itself within all things, that is what people do when they say, the Divine or God is within you and is you and you a part of it, or the micro macro holographic fractal version.

Look for that difference as you are exploring other materials is all I can add for now.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Satan ? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5727282 - 06/08/06 03:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I like the saying by Too Short, Get in where you fit in. Thats it, I feel like I don't really fit in any particular religion. I've studied the Christian faith and took it on whole heartedly. I've studied Buddha, but quickly lost interest, so I decided to become extremely philosophical, ponder and correlate concepts with our reality, I found this exercise to be mostly pointless, although I had to say that I did derive an inner ability to analyze people and environments on a dimes notice. Such as "silence of the lambs" when Hannibal could sense and read people very quickly. Which makes sense if you continually analyze things globally.

The bible itself has many contradictions such as: Jesus saying continue to seek until you find, but then in proverbs it says don't concern yourself with whats beyond your knowledge, for you have everything you need to know. So which way do I go. This example illustrates the confusion that resides in religious dogma,

To me its about timing, just like the sacred mushroom, if you take it out of context your going to end up with a unfulfilling trip, first accept where you are in life, then plan ahead and prepare yourself before jumping into things, its only beneficial if you can get into that groove, if its not meant to be then don't force it, I think that was a parable that I liked, but the problem then resides what should I be doing, for me I don't even care if its good or bad or whatever as long as its good for me, right now the shroomery seems to have made its impression, but I know I must extend beyond this at some point, when and how is still a question.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Satan ? [Re: capliberty]
    #5727301 - 06/08/06 03:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"The bible itself has many contradictions such as: Jesus saying continue to seek until you find, but then in proverbs it says don't concern yourself with whats beyond your knowledge, for you have everything you need to know. So which way do I go"

maybe inward?

I don't know... everything is such a riddle.
The noble truths, 8fold path, and the precepts are great. Very simple. They say not to do drugs though (but the wording is intoxicants .... and the focus is heedlessness I think... it's confusing)
but to me it's about experience. if you don't experience transcendence instead of a religion you have morals, and morals don't need superheros attached to them.

So I've experienced by drugs, by dreaming (sort of), and by yoga and tai chi, and by meditation.

So I don't know, might as well at least stick with all the non-drug ones and keep thinking.

It seems like meditation is the direct-est way to "God" though.

jiggy when I have money I will order that book, and a live san pedro cactus assuming my new apartment has adequate light.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 03:45 PM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Satan ? [Re: leery11]
    #5727373 - 06/08/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Doing medition seems somewhat hard. I tried programming myself to quit smoking pot, and then I achieved breaking the habit for a little while, but I found that I reverted back very easily, but thats using medition to break habits,

Now if I started to make another attempt, I don't know what to be focusing on, and focusing on nothings seems kinda boring, maybe on the so called secret and the "Law of attraction". LOL,


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Satan ? [Re: capliberty]
    #5727408 - 06/08/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well meditation is about nothing.

you will just sit and do nothing but what you are doing for a while.

such as consciously breathing each breath... or counting during your exhalations. or focusing on a chakra.

you can't quit weed unless you want to quit weed, if you are trying to hypnotize yourself it means you don't want to quit, but you want to WANT to quit so you are trying to trick yourself into thinking you want to!

i'll tell you how to quit though, go look at a picture of a diseased lung. if you are gonna weed it up you should either vaporize or eat it.

that's the only way man. it's absurd to damage your lungs when you can get a vaporizer for the price of a good bong, and you can cook with the vaporized leftovers so it really gives you like 30% more weed than normal.

i myself have a strong attachment to cannabis. I am really considering going back to it now that I've had a break because I want to use it to guide me in chakra opening (mainly lower chakras since I feel high enough while I'm sober sometimes)

the only issue is if its a hinderance to enlightenment? if it's neutral or positive that's okay. i don't want it to make me spiritually lazy though.

it also makes school more enjoyable, a chill out drug like how some people like to have a few beers.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/08/06 04:07 PM)


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Satan ? [Re: capliberty]
    #5727425 - 06/08/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

every thing changes

your program will fall apart

there is no law except God's and he doesn't follow them

paradox happens


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Satan ? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5727440 - 06/08/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:

God does love the human breed, but they are still his creation, which needs to be perfected, so he throws away those who are screwed up beyond repair by his enemy.

It's like a fight for t-shirts between a mom with a detergent and a messy kid.
The kid runs around making stains on the shirts, the mom runs after him, cleaning the shirts, and throwing away those who can't be cleaned.




Its like cloning marijuana plants, each generation gets weaker, also genocide resides to this day, certain races are viewed inferior and even certain ones almost savage like. Maybe it doesn't happen in the literal sense like Adolf Hitler, but it resides on a subconscious level, the poor and struggling are getting weed out and much of the ghetto populations get thrown behind bars. Reality can be harsh when competing with the so called top geno pools. You have to adapt different tactics to compensate your inferiority to the Alpha male


Edited by capliberty (06/08/06 04:15 PM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Satan ? [Re: capliberty]
    #5727510 - 06/08/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah vaporizers are the shit, the best way to eat it is totally extracting the THC from the bud and making butter, the butter then you can bake with, so you can make brownies, cookies, whatever, with none of the acutal bud but all of the actual THC,. The THC oil is tasty and you get ripped.


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Offlineleery11
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...... [Re: capliberty]
    #5727590 - 06/08/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Temptation be gone!

if you make the cookies/brownies really strong though, how long will they keep without going stale, as you cannot possibly eat an entire tray without frying your brain.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: ...... [Re: leery11]
    #5727641 - 06/08/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Actually they keep a good long while just like any other pastry, I get really high off just one cookie, two cookies I'm like borderline hallucinating, three cookies I'm blasted, I've eaten too much before, where I lost my sense of touch, I could grab something and not feel anything at all, it was weird getting used to, cause I was basically floating around like a spirit not being able to feel anything.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Satan [Re: capliberty]
    #5727711 - 06/08/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Satan is just just an assistant to Lucifer.

Evolutionary man finds it difficult fully to comprehend the significance and to grasp the meanings of evil, error, sin, and iniquity. Man is slow to perceive that contrastive perfection and imperfection produce potential evil; that conflicting truth and falsehood create confusing error; that the divine endowment of freewill choice eventuates in the divergent realms of sin and righteousness; that the persistent pursuit of divinity leads to the kingdom of God as contrasted with its continuous rejection, which leads to the domains of iniquity.

The Gods neither create evil nor permit sin and rebellion. Potential evil is time-existent in a universe embracing differential levels of perfection meanings and values. Sin is potential in all realms where imperfect beings are endowed with the ability to choose between good and evil. The very conflicting presence of truth and untruth, fact and falsehood, constitutes the potentiality of error. The deliberate choice of evil constitutes sin; the willful rejection of truth is error; the persistent pursuit of sin and error is iniquity.

1. TRUE AND FALSE LIBERTY

1.1 Of all the perplexing problems growing out of the Lucifer rebellion, none has occasioned more difficulty than the failure of immature evolutionary mortals to distinguish between true and false liberty.
1.2 True liberty is the quest of the ages and the reward of evolutionary progress. False liberty is the subtle deception of the error of time and the evil of space. Enduring liberty is predicated on the reality of justice -- intelligence, maturity, fraternity, and equity.
1.3 Liberty is a self-destroying technique of cosmic existence when its motivation is unintelligent, unconditioned, and uncontrolled. True liberty is progressively related to reality and is ever regardful of social equity, cosmic fairness, universe fraternity, and divine obligations.
1.4 Liberty is suicidal when divorced from material justice, intellectual fairness, social forbearance, moral duty, and spiritual values. Liberty is nonexistent apart from cosmic reality, and all personality reality is proportional to its divinity relationships.
1.5 Unbridled self-will and unregulated self-expression equal unmitigated selfishness, the acme of ungodliness. Liberty without the associated and ever-increasing conquest of self is a figment of egoistic mortal imagination. Self-motivated liberty is a conceptual illusion, a cruel deception. License masquerading in the garments of liberty is the forerunner of abject bondage.
1.6 True liberty is the associate of genuine self-respect; false liberty is the consort of self-admiration. True liberty is the fruit of self-control; false liberty, the assumption of self-assertion. Self-control leads to altruistic service; self-admiration tends towards the exploitation of others for the selfish aggrandizement of such a mistaken individual as is willing to sacrifice righteous attainment for the sake of possessing unjust power over his fellow beings.

1.7 Even wisdom is divine and safe only when it is cosmic in scope and spiritual in motivation.

1.8 There is no error greater than that species of self-deception which leads intelligent beings to crave the exercise of power over other beings for the purpose of depriving these persons of their natural liberties. The golden rule of human fairness cries out against all such fraud, unfairness, selfishness, and unrighteousness. Only true and genuine liberty is compatible with the reign of love and the ministry of mercy.
1.9 How dare the self-willed creature encroach upon the rights of his fellows in the name of personal liberty when the Supreme Rulers of the universe stand back in merciful respect for these prerogatives of will and potentials of personality! No being, in the exercise of his supposed personal liberty, has a right to deprive any other being of those privileges of existence conferred by the Creators and duly respected by all their loyal associates, subordinates, and subjects.
1.10 Evolutionary man may have to contend for his material liberties with tyrants and oppressors on a world of sin and iniquity or during the early times of a primitive evolving sphere, but not so on the morontia worlds or on the spirit spheres. War is the heritage of early evolutionary man, but on worlds of normal advancing civilization physical combat as a technique of adjusting racial misunderstandings has long since fallen into disrepute.

2. THE THEFT OF LIBERTY

2.1 With the Son and in the Spirit did God project eternal Havona, and ever since has there obtained the eternal pattern of co-ordinate participation in creation -- sharing. This pattern of sharing is the master design for every one of the Sons and Daughters of God who go out into space to engage in the attempt to duplicate in time the central universe of eternal perfection.
2.2 Every creature of every evolving universe who aspires to do the Father's will is destined to become the partner of the time-space Creators in this magnificent adventure of experiential perfection attainment. Were this not true, the Father would have hardly endowed such creatures with creative free will, neither would he indwell them, actually go into partnership with them by means of his own spirit.

2.3 Lucifer's folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe. Lucifer's crime was the attempted creative disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania, the unrecognized abridgment of the creature's personal participation -- freewill participation -- in the long evolutionary struggle to attain the status of light and life both individually and collectively. In so doing, this onetime Sovereign of your system set the temporal purpose of his own will directly athwart the eternal purpose of God's will as it is revealed in the bestowal of free will upon all personal creatures. The Lucifer rebellion thus threatened the maximum possible infringement of the freewill choice of the ascenders and servers of the system of Satania -- a threat forevermore to deprive every one of these beings of the thrilling experience of contributing something personal and unique to the slowly erecting monument to experiential wisdom which will sometime exist as the perfected system of Satania. Thus does the Lucifer manifesto, masquerading in the habiliments of liberty, stand forth in the clear light of reason as a monumental threat to consummate the theft of personal liberty and to do it on a scale that has been approached only twice in all the history of Nebadon.
2.4 In short, what God had given men and angels Lucifer would have taken away from them, that is, the divine privilege of participating in the creation of their own destinies and of the destiny of this local system of inhabited worlds.

2.5 No being in all the universe has the rightful liberty to deprive any other being of true liberty, the right to love and be loved, the privilege of worshiping God and of serving his fellows.

3. THE TIME LAG OF JUSTICE

3.1 The moral will creatures of the evolutionary worlds are always bothered with the unthinking question as to why the all-wise Creators permit evil and sin. They fail to comprehend that both are inevitable if the creature is to be truly free. The free will of evolving man or exquisite angel is not a mere philosophic concept, a symbolic ideal. Man's ability to choose good or evil is a universe reality. This liberty to choose for oneself is an endowment of the Supreme Rulers, and they will not permit any being or group of beings to deprive a single personality in the wide universe of this divinely bestowed liberty -- not even to satisfy such misguided and ignorant beings in the enjoyment of this misnamed personal liberty.
3.2 Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty -- the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil -- a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual's universe status as will prove entirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.
3.3 But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and in all related supporters and possible sympathizers.

4. THE MERCY TIME LAG

4.1 Another problem somewhat difficult of explanation in the constellation of Norlatiadek pertains to the reasons for permitting Lucifer, Satan, and the fallen princes to work mischief so long before being apprehended, interned, and adjudicated.
4.2 Parents, those who have borne and reared children, are better able to understand why Michael, a Creator-father, might be slow to condemn and destroy his own Sons. Jesus' story of the prodigal son well illustrates how a loving father can long wait for the repentance of an erring child.
4.3 The very fact that an evil-doing creature can actually choose to do wrong -- commit sin -- establishes the fact of free-willness and fully justifies any length delay in the execution of justice provided the extended mercy might conduce to repentance and rehabilitation.

4.4 Most of the liberties which Lucifer sought he already had; others he was to receive in the future. All these precious endowments were lost by giving way to impatience and yielding to a desire to possess what one craves now and to possess it in defiance of all obligation to respect the rights and liberties of all other beings composing the universe of universes. Ethical obligations are innate, divine, and universal.

4.5 There are many reasons known to us why the Supreme Rulers did not immediately destroy or intern the leaders of the Lucifer rebellion. There are no doubt still other and possibly better reasons unknown to us. The mercy features of this delay in the execution of justice were extended personally by Michael of Nebadon. Except for the affection of this Creator-father for his erring Sons, the supreme justice of the superuniverse would have acted. If such an episode as the Lucifer rebellion had occurred in Nebadon while Michael was incarnated on Urantia, the instigators of such evil might have been instantly and absolutely annihilated.
4.6 Supreme justice can act instantly when not restrained by divine mercy. But the ministry of mercy to the children of time and space always provides for this time lag, this saving interval between seedtime and harvest. If the seed sowing is good, this interval provides for the testing and upbuilding of character; if the seed sowing is evil, this merciful delay provides time for repentance and rectification. This time delay in the adjudication and execution of evildoers is inherent in the mercy ministry of the seven superuniverses. This restraint of justice by mercy proves that God is love, and that such a God of love dominates the universes and in mercy controls the fate and judgment of all his creatures.
4.7 The mercy delays of time are by the mandate of the free will of the Creators. There is good to be derived in the universe from this technique of patience in dealing with sinful rebels. While it is all too true that good cannot come of evil to the one who contemplates and performs evil, it is equally true that all things (including evil, potential and manifest) work together for good to all beings who know God, love to do his will, and are ascending Paradiseward according to his eternal plan and divine purpose.
4.8 But these mercy delays are not interminable. Notwithstanding the long delay (as time is reckoned on Urantia) in adjudicating the Lucifer rebellion, we may record that, during the time of effecting this revelation, the first hearing in the pending case of Gabriel vs . Lucifer was held on Uversa, and soon thereafter there issued the mandate of the Ancients of Days directing that Satan be henceforth confined to the prison world with Lucifer. This ends the ability of Satan to pay further visits to any of the fallen worlds of Satania. Justice in a mercy-dominated universe may be slow, but it is certain.

5. THE WISDOM OF DELAY

5.1 Of the many reasons known to me as to why Lucifer and his confederates were not sooner interned or adjudicated, I am permitted to recite the following:

5.2 Mercy requires that every wrongdoer have sufficient time in which to formulate a deliberate and fully chosen attitude regarding his evil thoughts and sinful acts.

5.3 Supreme justice is dominated by a Father's love; therefore will justice never destroy that which mercy can save. Time to accept salvation is vouchsafed every evildoer.

5.4 No affectionate father is ever precipitate in visiting punishment upon an erring member of his family. Patience cannot function independently of time.

5.5 While wrongdoing is always deleterious to a family, wisdom and love admonish the upright children to bear with an erring brother during the time granted by the affectionate father in which the sinner may see the error of his way and embrace salvation.

5.6 Regardless of Michael's attitude toward Lucifer, notwithstanding his being Lucifer's Creator-father, it was not in the province of the Creator Son to exercise summary jurisdiction over the apostate System Sovereign because he had not then completed his bestowal career, thereby attaining unqualified sovereignty of Nebadon.

5.7 The Ancients of Days could have immediately annihilated these rebels, but they seldom execute wrongdoers without a full hearing. In this instance they refused to overrule the Michael decisions.

5.8 It is evident that Immanuel counseled Michael to remain aloof from the rebels and allow rebellion to pursue a natural course of self-obliteration. And the wisdom of the Union of Days is the time reflection of the united wisdom of the Paradise Trinity.

5.9 The Faithful of Days on Edentia advised the Constellation Fathers to allow the rebels free course to the end that all sympathy for these evildoers should be the sooner uprooted in the hearts of every present and future citizen of Norlatiadek -- every mortal, morontia, or spirit creature.

5.10 On Jerusem the personal representative of the Supreme Executive of Orvonton counseled Gabriel to foster full opportunity for every living creature to mature a deliberate choice in those matters involved in the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The issues of rebellion having been raised, the Paradise emergency adviser of Gabriel portrayed that, if such full and free opportunity were not given all Norlatiadek creatures, then would the Paradise quarantine against all such possible halfhearted or doubt-stricken creatures be extended in self-protection against the entire constellation. To keep open the Paradise doors of ascension to the beings of Norlatiadek, it was necessary to provide for the full development of rebellion and to insure the complete determination of attitude on the part of all beings in any way concerned therewith.

5.11 The Divine Minister of Salvington issued as her third independent proclamation a mandate directing that nothing be done to half cure, cowardly suppress, or otherwise hide the hideous visage of rebels and rebellion. The angelic hosts were directed to work for full disclosure and unlimited opportunity for sin-expression as the quickest technique of achieving the perfect and final cure of the plague of evil and sin.

5.12 An emergency council of ex-mortals consisting of Mighty Messengers, glorified mortals who had had personal experience with like situations, together with their colleagues, was organized on Jerusem. They advised Gabriel that at least three times the number of beings would be led astray if arbitrary or summary methods of suppression were attempted. The entire Uversa corps of counselors concurred in advising Gabriel to permit the rebellion to take its full and natural course, even if it should require a million years to wind up the consequences.

5.13 Time, even in a universe of time, is relative: If a Urantia mortal of average length of life should commit a crime which precipitated world-wide pandemonium, and if he were apprehended, tried, and executed within two or three days of the commission of the crime, would it seem a long time to you? And yet that would be nearer a comparison with the length of Lucifer's life even if his adjudication, now begun, should not be completed for a hundred thousand Urantia years. The relative lapse of time from the viewpoint of Uversa, where the litigation is pending, could be indicated by saying that the crime of Lucifer was being brought to trial within two and a half seconds of its commission. From the Paradise viewpoint the adjudication is simultaneous with the enactment.

5.14 There are an equal number of reasons for not arbitrarily stopping the Lucifer rebellion which would be partially comprehensible to you, but which I am not permitted to narrate. I may inform you that on Uversa we teach forty-eight reasons for permitting evil to run the full course of its own moral bankruptcy and spiritual extinction. I doubt not that there are just as many additional reasons not known to me.

6. THE TRIUMPH OF LOVE

6.1 Whatever the difficulties evolutionary mortals may encounter in their efforts to understand the Lucifer rebellion, it should be clear to all reflective thinkers that the technique of dealing with the rebels is a vindication of divine love. The loving mercy extended to the rebels does seem to have involved many innocent beings in trials and tribulations, but all these distraught personalities may securely depend upon the all-wise Judges to adjudicate their destinies in mercy as well as justice.
6.2 In all their dealings with intelligent beings, both the Creator Son and his Paradise Father are love dominated. It is impossible to comprehend many phases of the attitude of the universe rulers toward rebels and rebellion -- sin and sinners -- unless it be remembered that God as a Father takes precedence over all other phases of Deity manifestation in all the dealings of divinity with humanity. It should also be recalled that the Paradise Creator Sons are all mercy motivated.

6.3 If an affectionate father of a large family chooses to show mercy to one of his children guilty of grievous wrongdoing, it may well be that the extension of mercy to this misbehaving child will work a temporary hardship upon all the other and well-behaved children. Such eventualities are inevitable; such a risk is inseparable from the reality situation of having a loving parent and of being a member of a family group. Each member of a family profits by the righteous conduct of every other member; likewise must each member suffer the immediate time-consequences of the misconduct of every other member. Families, groups, nations, races, worlds, systems, constellations, and universes are relationships of association which possess individuality; and therefore does every member of any such group, large or small, reap the benefits and suffer the consequences of the rightdoing and the wrongdoing of all other members of the group concerned.
6.4 But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere -- no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors -- you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions. None of these fraternal consequences of misbehavior in the group can ever jeopardize your eternal prospects or in the least degree deprive you of your divine right of Paradise ascension and God attainment.
6.5 And there is compensation for these trials, delays, and disappointments which invariably accompany the sin of rebellion. Of the many valuable repercussions of the Lucifer rebellion which might be named, I will only call attention to the enhanced careers of those mortal ascenders, the Jerusem citizens, who, by withstanding the sophistries of sin, placed themselves in line for becoming future Mighty Messengers, fellows of my own order. Every being who stood the test of that evil episode thereby immediately advanced his administrative status and enhanced his spiritual worth.

6.6 At first the Lucifer upheaval appeared to be an unmitigated calamity to the system and to the universe. Gradually benefits began to accrue. With the passing of twenty-five thousand years of system time (twenty thousand years of Urantia time), the Melchizedeks began to teach that the good resulting from Lucifer's folly had come to equal the evil incurred. The sum of evil had by that time become almost stationary, continuing to increase only on certain isolated worlds, while the beneficial repercussions continued to multiply and extend out through the universe and superuniverse, even to Havona. The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil.
6.7 But such an extraordinary and beneficent harvest of wrongdoing could only be brought about by the wise, divine, and merciful attitude of all of Lucifer's superiors, extending from the Constellation Fathers on Edentia to the Universal Father on Paradise. The passing of time has enhanced the consequential good to be derived from the Lucifer folly; and since the evil to be penalized was quite fully developed within a comparatively short time, it is apparent that the all-wise and farseeing universe rulers would be certain to extend the time in which to reap increasingly beneficial results. Regardless of the many additional reasons for delaying the apprehension and adjudication of the Satania rebels, this one gain would have been enough to explain why these sinners were not sooner interned, and why they have not been adjudicated and destroyed.
6.8 Shortsighted and time-bound mortal minds should be slow to criticize the time delays of the farseeing and all-wise administrators of universe affairs.

6.9 One error of human thinking respecting these problems consists in the idea that all evolutionary mortals on an evolving planet would choose to enter upon the Paradise career if sin had not cursed their world. The ability to decline survival does not date from the times of the Lucifer rebellion. Mortal man has always possessed the endowment of freewill choice regarding the Paradise career.

6.10 As you ascend in the survival experience, you will broaden your universe concepts and extend your horizon of meanings and values; and thus will you be able the better to understand why such beings as Lucifer and Satan are permitted to continue in rebellion. You will also better comprehend how ultimate (if not immediate) good can be derived from time-limited evil. After you attain Paradise, you will really be enlightened and comforted when you listen to the superaphic philosophers discuss and explain these profound problems of universe adjustment. But even then, I doubt that you will be fully satisfied in your own minds. At least I was not, even when I had thus attained the acme of universe philosophy. I did not achieve a full comprehension of these complexities until after I had been assigned to administrative duties in the superuniverse, where by actual experience I have acquired conceptual capacity adequate for the comprehension of such many-sided problems in cosmic equity and spiritual philosophy. As you ascend Paradiseward, you will increasingly learn that many problematic features of universe administration can only be comprehended subsequent to the acquirement of increased experiential capacity and to the achievement of enhanced spiritual insight. Cosmic wisdom is essential to the understanding of cosmic situations.


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