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Matrix Trilogy

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V for Vendetta

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Philip K. Dick

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Characteristics of propaganda are concealed purpose, concealed identity, control of information flow, management of public opinion, and manipulation of behavior.  They involve a person's beliefs, values, attitudes, behavior, group norms, symbols, etc.

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Propaganda is a sustained effort by an institution to manage public opinion.

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MarkostheGnostic said:

'Gnostic' is a particular approach or methodology, it is not propaganda. If anything, Gnostic interpretation is anything but literal, and hence not propaganda. Some Gnostic groups created their own myths and metaphors, others sought to interpret scriptural writings much as the 'Knowledgeable' Jews have - according to Pardes (PRDS) in which there are four levels of interpretation of scriptures:
http://www.markosthegnostic.org/2008/04/psychospiritual-symbolism-of-sacred_09.html

Gnostic attitude is phenomenological, which is to say, it is completely open to human experience and describes Reality via myth and metaphor, because Reality, as process, cannot be grasped merely as material substance or historical event. Substance can be reduced to energy (in a "phenomenological reduction") and historicity is open to as many interpretations as there are witnesses. The absence of true witness and mere supposition results in propaganda, in wishfful thinking or political agenda. The Gnostic attitude is one which is open to experience, or the "stream of consciousness," as William James put it, and it does not try to 'fix the volatile' as alchemists used to say. Rather, we must sublimate our solidity into volatility, because consciousness (or spirit) is anything but solid. In the words of Plotinus: "Only eyes that have become like unto the sun can gaze into the sun."

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concept of an evil(or at least flawed and egotistical)

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Lion said:

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concept of an evil(or at least flawed and egotistical)

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From a theistic perspective, what alternative do you propose to explain humanity's flaws and egotism?

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Silversoul said:

Lion said:

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concept of an evil(or at least flawed and egotistical)

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From a theistic perspective, what alternative do you propose to explain humanity's flaws and egotism?

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A non-omnipotent but perfectly loving God who works through persuasion rather than coercion.  The god of process theology.

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Thanks.  My second post was written as you were replying.  I'll give that wiki entry a read.

Of course revolutions will ultimately lead to only an updated version of corruption...this is inherent in the word, itself. It implies revolving, going round and round.

If we were really interested in transcending, we'd be looking for an evolution. The sorts of change the old world/ways/ideas simply couldn't infiltrate into.

Aside from this, I can't believe this thread involves people debating what "propaganda" is. Saying art is equivalent to propaganda is like saying capitalism is equivalent to communism. They may both be outlets of communication, both their methods/effects are as different as night and day.

That said, you whom stated art/propaganda as on a par... you wouldn't happen to be working on an art piece focused on propaganda, would you?

daytripper23 said:

On the other hand, these messages are revolutionary, or basically concern "waking up". IMO, if there is anything that points to an artistic, rather than a politically contrived motivation; "transcendental" is this.

Generally, propaganda comes from the conservative establishment, and revolution comes from the well, the revolutionary mindset. This is how I distinguish the two: Propaganda does not make people rowdy, it puts them to sleep. The real split is between conservative energy, and revolutionary energy. But even though both of these energies are recognized in politics, I do not think a revolution is necessarily politically contrived. I would hold that there can be an apolitical motivation to revolution, like an a noble atheism is to God.

But in the end, a this noble revolutionary mindset cannot be treated as static or positive state. I often argue against positive atheism in this forum, and I think that apolitical revolution fits the same bill. Unfortunately, I do not think we can always be the rebel. Albert Camus held that once a revolution runs its course (a revolution being successful), if the same energy remains, it will actually begin to tyrannize the population. Perhaps the energy can be redirected, and what we need is revolution after revolution within ourselves, to point us in fresh directions.

But concerning any specific revolution, I think we have to speculate that this cannot be a static or positive identity. A revolution is specifically directed, so we must conclude that each specific revolution must end.

So I wonder, is there even a parallel to transcendentalism and art? If the motivation is always "waking up", the one thing that we can conclude of our world is that we are asleep in it. So actually waking up, is going to necessarily entail not waking up "anymore".

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