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Green7Alchemist
Draco



Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
#24007812 - 01/13/17 05:10 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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yuppp!!
i tried telling everyone Anarchy is the way to go but nooo Anarchist riot and they wear black boohoo well slave for the fucken system then !
im convinced that we have been programmed by the mass media to believe bad is good and good is bad so that the elite can get away with their agenda,
mushrooms? bad!Dexmethylphenidate? good!
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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I would take that Rubik cube, well.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: LunarEclipse]
#24007840 - 01/13/17 05:22 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Where the fuck is Markos?
His getting drunk and spouting off was entertaining. Probably come back and tell me off. The usual.
Oh wait I'm crazy. I can't be held accountable. In fact, you owe me.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
#24008235 - 01/13/17 08:38 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.
exactly
likewise "the universe"
learning to think does not mean learning how to construct castles in the air
it means learning that they are constructed out of thin air
Anything we wish to ground the meaning of our lives on must therefor be "thin air" which is not very comforting.
OK, you are mixing the container for the content. naturally if you try to put your bowl into the applesauce, you will come out with something messy, but if you put the apple sauce into the bowl, you can eat it and share it without any mess.
Meaning has to do with what is associated, even the term implied means it is associated in memory as a thing that is followed by another thing.
In this way things have meaning. They connect to other things in meaning.
but we can use the word to confuse ourselves - for example "meaningful relationship" what does it imply, what does it mean? well, it suggests a plurality of meanings, since it is full of meaning, or a plurality of associations. Some may take it to be common interests, or common history, or other things in common, or shared ownership, shared work, etc. Similarities also create and enhance association or meaning without necessarily having causal impact.
so a pen and a knife are both tools, both longish, both fit in pocket (maybe), but one does not imply the other, yet they have commonality, which can have meaning in some situations.
so "what is the meaning of life" there are oceans of association with "life" the word, life the idea, life the process, life the science, my life, your life, their lives. There are reams of declarations from thinkers, theologians, mystics, and politicians specifying their ideas of a meaning in life and a purpose to life that fits in their kookie cosmologies.
And that is the crux of this thinking, cosmology, and this usually is mystic, or conjectural or reasonably incomplete and open if it is scientific.
Good luck with your thinking
Sure, there is always a plurality of meanings. But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?" We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe. A wider universe which according to science has no values, which is why we continue to ask the question. We want an answer to this question that makes us feel valuable, eternal, and the modern cultural milieu cannot offer us one, so we are stuck in a thought loop.
Your using clever semantics to obfuscate the obvious. But through your obfuscation you point to the very problem you wish to ignore.
The plurality of meanings is part of the problem. If my story about how I am valuable to the universe, eternal, is true, than how can that other strange fellows story also be true? Are all the stories true or just mine? Coming into contact with the plurality of stories we tell ourselves about our meaningfulness degrades each and every one of them. This is why we are stuck in a postmodern existential dilemma where we cannot ground ourselves in any sort of truth claim. Science try's to become a monolith of truth claims, and it works to a certain degree, but science won't offer us what we really want, to be valuable members of a meaningful universe.
Again, it never used to be this way. Before the enlightenment most people could rely on their communal systems of redemption. But through contact with exotic others we have come into this plurality of meaning which calls into question the meaning of life.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] 1
#24008260 - 01/13/17 08:54 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.”
-Kurt Vonnegut
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 23 minutes
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24008328 - 01/13/17 09:45 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?"
We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe.
It's fascinating that existence is not enough.
And that people seek value outside of themselves.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24008534 - 01/14/17 12:07 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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What is the meaning of life? In your view/opinion?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#24008739 - 01/14/17 02:28 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?"
We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe.
It's fascinating that existence is not enough.
And that people seek value outside of themselves.
Well we need meaning to justify action, in fact action presupposes meaning. Why do anything unless there is a meaning for it? The problem is that we need to feel that our actions are congruent with not just the meaning of the action itself, but the wider universe also. That is the whole point of religion. Science tells us that our actions are small and largely insignificant from the universal perspective, which is why people try not to be too rational lest their actions begin to bog down and they spiral into depression.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
#24008741 - 01/14/17 02:30 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: What is the meaning of life? In your view/opinion?
I honestly don't know, which is pretty much the same as saying there is no meaning to life, at least not at the grandest scale. Again, at a scale closer to home we can have plenty of meaning e.g. meaningful relationships etc. But, that won't give people everything that they want.
Edited by blingbling (01/14/17 02:59 AM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24008775 - 01/14/17 03:01 AM (7 years, 16 days ago) |
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Maybe this 'gnostic turn' 'means', simply said, that people start to find their own meaning and super-suppose it above the 'meaning' of all the other people ? And yes, I agree with RGV that the meaning of life is like to keep that 'container' existing, which keeps this 'subjective' and 'individual' personal meaning. It is a meta concept. Good thread <3
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: BlueCoyote]
#24008792 - 01/14/17 03:13 AM (7 years, 16 days ago) |
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Yes, we have to find our own meaning because our culture can no longer supply it + we are already existing is a plurality of meaning so the idea of an individually founded universal meaning becomes more plausible. But this spiritual/ideological move is not as powerful as the previous systems of redemption that were believed to be the only truth of the universe.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24009220 - 01/14/17 09:07 AM (7 years, 16 days ago) |
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I do not see how I am obfuscatingQuote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
OK, you are mixing the container for the content. naturally if you try to put your bowl into the applesauce, you will come out with something messy, but if you put the apple sauce into the bowl, you can eat it and share it without any mess.
Meaning has to do with what is associated, even the term implied means it is associated in memory as a thing that is followed by another thing.
In this way things have meaning. They connect to other things in meaning.
but we can use the word to confuse ourselves - for example "meaningful relationship" what does it imply, what does it mean? well, it suggests a plurality of meanings, since it is full of meaning, or a plurality of associations. Some may take it to be common interests, or common history, or other things in common, or shared ownership, shared work, etc. Similarities also create and enhance association or meaning without necessarily having causal impact.
so a pen and a knife are both tools, both longish, both fit in pocket (maybe), but one does not imply the other, yet they have commonality, which can have meaning in some situations.
so "what is the meaning of life" there are oceans of association with "life" the word, life the idea, life the process, life the science, my life, your life, their lives. There are reams of declarations from thinkers, theologians, mystics, and politicians specifying their ideas of a meaning in life and a purpose to life that fits in their kookie cosmologies.
And that is the crux of this thinking, cosmology, and this usually is mystic, or conjectural or reasonably incomplete and open if it is scientific.
Good luck with your thinking
Sure, there is always a plurality of meanings. But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?" We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe. A wider universe which according to science has no values, which is why we continue to ask the question. We want an answer to this question that makes us feel valuable, eternal, and the modern cultural milieu cannot offer us one, so we are stuck in a thought loop.
Your using clever semantics to obfuscate the obvious. But through your obfuscation you point to the very problem you wish to ignore.
The plurality of meanings is part of the problem. If my story about how I am valuable to the universe, eternal, is true, than how can that other strange fellows story also be true? Are all the stories true or just mine? Coming into contact with the plurality of stories we tell ourselves about our meaningfulness degrades each and every one of them. This is why we are stuck in a postmodern existential dilemma where we cannot ground ourselves in any sort of truth claim. Science try's to become a monolith of truth claims, and it works to a certain degree, but science won't offer us what we really want, to be valuable members of a meaningful universe.
Again, it never used to be this way. Before the enlightenment most people could rely on their communal systems of redemption. But through contact with exotic others we have come into this plurality of meaning which calls into question the meaning of life.
My approach is not a semantic one, but yours does suffer semantic flaws that you insist upon justifying based upon "time honored pursuits" (this is a common "forefather flaw" in which the proponent of a failing idea delegates the argument to "the wisdom of the ancients").
Just because the "meaning of life" question has surfaced in the past, you are giving it validity that it really does not deserve, and you are ascribing it importance that people have also given to: 1. god 2. death anxiety 3. re-incarnation 4. true love
Many pre-enlightenment concepts are just that. We can and should move beyond pre-enlightenment.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#24010119 - 01/14/17 03:46 PM (7 years, 16 days ago) |
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Next step to pre enlightenment would be taking a handful of mushrooms on a dark night in the middle of the woods and finding out that only you save you and after everything passes it will still be you-niverse
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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Quote:
Green7Alchemist said: Next step to pre enlightenment would be taking a handful of mushrooms on a dark night in the middle of the woods and finding out that only you save you and after everything passes it will still be you-niverse
QFT
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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TwitwatSpackle
Stranger
Registered: 01/15/17
Posts: 10
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
#24011627 - 01/15/17 09:40 AM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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New Romanticism is pretty dope. It's the triumph of man over nihilism.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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anti-philosophy is undoubtedly the only place to go in a society where the people have the maturity of teeny-boppers.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
#24012989 - 01/15/17 07:51 PM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I do not see how I am obfuscatingQuote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
OK, you are mixing the container for the content. naturally if you try to put your bowl into the applesauce, you will come out with something messy, but if you put the apple sauce into the bowl, you can eat it and share it without any mess.
Meaning has to do with what is associated, even the term implied means it is associated in memory as a thing that is followed by another thing.
In this way things have meaning. They connect to other things in meaning.
but we can use the word to confuse ourselves - for example "meaningful relationship" what does it imply, what does it mean? well, it suggests a plurality of meanings, since it is full of meaning, or a plurality of associations. Some may take it to be common interests, or common history, or other things in common, or shared ownership, shared work, etc. Similarities also create and enhance association or meaning without necessarily having causal impact.
so a pen and a knife are both tools, both longish, both fit in pocket (maybe), but one does not imply the other, yet they have commonality, which can have meaning in some situations.
so "what is the meaning of life" there are oceans of association with "life" the word, life the idea, life the process, life the science, my life, your life, their lives. There are reams of declarations from thinkers, theologians, mystics, and politicians specifying their ideas of a meaning in life and a purpose to life that fits in their kookie cosmologies.
And that is the crux of this thinking, cosmology, and this usually is mystic, or conjectural or reasonably incomplete and open if it is scientific.
Good luck with your thinking
Sure, there is always a plurality of meanings. But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?" We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe. A wider universe which according to science has no values, which is why we continue to ask the question. We want an answer to this question that makes us feel valuable, eternal, and the modern cultural milieu cannot offer us one, so we are stuck in a thought loop.
Your using clever semantics to obfuscate the obvious. But through your obfuscation you point to the very problem you wish to ignore.
The plurality of meanings is part of the problem. If my story about how I am valuable to the universe, eternal, is true, than how can that other strange fellows story also be true? Are all the stories true or just mine? Coming into contact with the plurality of stories we tell ourselves about our meaningfulness degrades each and every one of them. This is why we are stuck in a postmodern existential dilemma where we cannot ground ourselves in any sort of truth claim. Science try's to become a monolith of truth claims, and it works to a certain degree, but science won't offer us what we really want, to be valuable members of a meaningful universe.
Again, it never used to be this way. Before the enlightenment most people could rely on their communal systems of redemption. But through contact with exotic others we have come into this plurality of meaning which calls into question the meaning of life.
My approach is not a semantic one, but yours does suffer semantic flaws that you insist upon justifying based upon "time honored pursuits" (this is a common "forefather flaw" in which the proponent of a failing idea delegates the argument to "the wisdom of the ancients").
Just because the "meaning of life" question has surfaced in the past, you are giving it validity that it really does not deserve, and you are ascribing it importance that people have also given to: 1. god 2. death anxiety 3. re-incarnation 4. true love
Many pre-enlightenment concepts are just that. We can and should move beyond pre-enlightenment.
I never said that we should return to pre-enlightenment beliefs, even if that was possible, which I don't think it is, it would not be desirable. All I'm arguing for is that we admit what we have lost, not that we should return to some golden age which we all know was never that great anyway. We have made advances economically and morally that cannot be understated, but spiritually we are in decline. This is much more nuanced argument than your rendering.
Also, my claim is not that "the "meaning of life" question has surfaced in the past" My claim is the exact opposite: that this question was not ever really conceptualised the way it is today in pre enlightenment cultures. You need to read more carefully and then address the arguments as they are actually presented.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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What is "new romanticism"?
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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tHEfLY
Stranger
Registered: 04/16/16
Posts: 427
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24013611 - 01/16/17 01:32 AM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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I've been thinking about the same questions OP. Came across this essay recently, you might appreciate it:
TS Eliot - "After Strange Gods: A Primer of Modern Heresy"
Quote:
Tradition is not solely, or even primarily, the mainten- ance of certain dogmatic beliefs; these beliefs have come to take their living form in the course of the formation of a ^ tradition. What I mean by tradition involves all those habitual actions, habits and customs, from the most signifi- cant religious rite to our conventional way of greeting a stranger, which represent the blood kinship of 'the same people living in the same place'. It involves a good deal which can be called taboo: that this word is used in our time in an exclusively derogatory sense is to me a curiosity of some significance. We become conscious of these items, or conscious of their importance, usually only after they have begun to fall into desuetude, as we are aware of the leaves of a tree when the autumn wind begins to blow them off when they have separately ceased to be vital.' Energy may be wasted at that point in a frantic endeavour to collect the leaves as they fall and gum them onto the branches: but the sound tree will put forth new leaves, and the dry tree should be put to the axe. We are always in ^danger, in clinging to an old tradition, or attempting to re-establish one, of confusing the vital and the unessential, the real and the sentimental. Our second danger is to asso- ciate tradition with the immovable; to think of it as something hostile to all change; to aim to return to some previous condition which we imagine as having been capable of preservation in perpetuity, instead of aiming - to stimulate the life which produced that condition in its time.
...
Quote:
I hold in summing up that a tradition is rather a way of feeling and acting which characterises a group throughout generations; and that it must largely be, or that many of the elements in it must be, unconscious; whereas the main- tenance of orthodoxy is a matter which calls for the exercise of all our conscious intelligence. The two will therefore considerably complement each other. Not only is it poss- ible to conceive of a tradition being definitely bad; a good tradition might, in changing circumstances, become out of date. Tradition has not the means to criticise itself; it may perpetuate much that is trivial or of transient significance as well as what is vital and permanent. And while tra- dition, being a matter of good habits, is necessarily real only in a social group, orthodoxy exists whether realised in anyone's thought or not. Orthodoxy also, of course repre- sents a consensus between the living and the dead: but a whole generation might conceivably pass without any orthodox thought; or, as by Athanasius, orthodoxy may \ be upheld by one man against the world. Tradition may be conceived as a by-product of right living, not to be aimed at directly. It is of the blood, so to speak, rather than of the brain: it is the means by which the vitality of the past en- riches the life of the present. In the co-operation of both is the reconciliation of thought and feeling.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
#24013669 - 01/16/17 02:22 AM (7 years, 15 days ago) |
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He's kind of dancing around the stuff I'm talking about, but it is insightful. The gnostic turn that I'm speaking of is a turn away from orthodoxy as it becomes outdated as Elliot describes. But to be unorthodox creates its own problems. I think that eventually this new found gnosticism will find an orthodoxy, or multiple orthodoxies, and this will be a new global religion. We can see the seeds of this in modern environmentalism and its quasi-religious ethic. Eventually the new age movement will become institutionalised into a global orthodoxy. That's my prediction for the future of religion for what its worth.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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