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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] 1
#23995642 - 01/09/17 04:06 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
#23995698 - 01/09/17 04:30 PM (7 years, 21 days ago) |
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people think they can construct a perfect world. but without striving, what kind of world is there?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24004613 - 01/12/17 04:03 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.
Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"
thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.
That's exactly my point, meditation bypasses these questions, at least for a short time. But I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I think there is some merit in grappling with these questions.
what part about a being DISORIENTED as a result of word salad do you like? the question is not meaningful, but it challenges the monkey mind. same as "what is the purpose of life?" word salad - not a real question, life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
#24004681 - 01/12/17 04:25 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.
Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"
thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.
That's exactly my point, meditation bypasses these questions, at least for a short time. But I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I think there is some merit in grappling with these questions.
what part about a being DISORIENTED as a result of word salad do you like? the question is not meaningful, but it challenges the monkey mind. same as "what is the purpose of life?" word salad - not a real question, life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.
Must be closing in on dinner time.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
#24005258 - 01/12/17 07:15 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.
Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"
thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.
That's exactly my point, meditation bypasses these questions, at least for a short time. But I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I think there is some merit in grappling with these questions.
what part about a being DISORIENTED as a result of word salad do you like? the question is not meaningful, but it challenges the monkey mind. same as "what is the purpose of life?" word salad - not a real question, life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.
The fact that we ask the question at all evidences our spiritual decadence. Meditation practices are largely a byproduct of this spiritual decadence. Meditation is bound up with spiritual decadence in the same way that antidepressants are bound up with the social construction of the depressed.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] 2
#24005424 - 01/12/17 08:07 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Now we live in a vast and ever expanding universe, largely hostile to life and with nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto. The universe appears as a vast emptiness to us, not because it is in fact empty, but because we are unable to imagine ourselves as being important in this vast universe.
I think your premise that there is "nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto" is a false premise. I have in large measure reconciled faith with reason, and one of the results has been a dissolution of 'beliefs,' but my faith in what we can simply call God remains. Beliefs are ideas that have been quarantined from further analysis. As such, they become dogmas which are defined as "incontrovertible truths." There are no such things. For example, I have analyzed Christian dogmas down to the fascinating dogma of a Trinitarian God, Una Substantia Tres Personas, and I've looked at Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox doctrines about this dogma. One can see how this dogma developed in the 3rd century from a single extra-biblical term 'trinity,' first used by Tertullian, who was himself condemned as a heretic afterwards. The Eastern Orthodox Church has the most interesting contributors to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, with modern theologians still attempting to add to it, most importantly, attempting to attribute an Eternal Feminine to the neutral Holy Spirit (harkening back to the original divine trinity in Egypt of Osiris-Horus-Isis). Conversely, there have been attempts in Protestant Christianity to dissolve trinitarian thought entirely, reducing it to its original Hebrew roots in ONE God (see https://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-Trinity-Christianitys-Self-Inflicted-Wound/dp/1573093092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484274484&sr=8-1&keywords=the+doctrine+of+the++trinity ). ALL of these doctrines have their own internal logic, but every one can be dissolved without destroying faith and meaning in my subjective experience.
'Beliefs' are no longer the basis of meaningful life, but even as Buddha postulated, "Right Faith" is necessary, and faith is separate from belief. Now, what I have very recently come to realize (from the book Rational Mysticism: Spirituality Meets Science in the Search for Enlightenment by John Horgan) is another dissonance that I have to work on, (as I did earlier with faith and reason that was cleared up by the work of Rev. John Shelby Spong). The new dissonance, really an old one that I kept avoiding, is between mysticism and gnosticism. I provisionally held a definition that the importance of gnosticism was an abiding sense of Transcendental Identity, the 'I' or "Witness" that Ram Dass described in the preface to BE HERE NOW, which is an awareness that is wise, not knowledgeable (as in the meaning of another word for knowledge, epistemé). The wisdom is a contentless Presence, which if any attribute dare be ascribed would be compassion or agapé (biblically speaking), or karuna and metta (compassion and loving-kindness) in Indian religion. But this is not properly gnostic thought, this is mysticism. In a nutshell, the position that Everything is ultimately OK is the position of mysticism while the position that Everything is ultimately NOT OK describes gnostic religion.
So now I have to work out a Synthesis from the Thesis and Antithesis of Mysticism and Gnosticism. The Gnostics created a plethora of complex and bizarre myths to account for evil in God (theodicy), while the mysticism at least found in BE HERE NOW, a "Perennial Philosophy," speaks to a radical determinism where Everything is perfect - except for our ability to see it. Now this used to comfort me a great deal, but that was because I never found myself in a Nazi gas chamber in Auschwitz or anything remotely as horrible. What continues to give meaning to my life is the realization that the universe is unitary, and I am not separate from it inasmuch as I am as much co-extensive with space-time as any other body in space, large or small. While I cannot say definitively that each of the planets in our unique solar system do not have a 'planetary spirit [consciousness],' I DO Realize that this unitary universe experiences itself locally though ME. I am not lifeless, and indeed I cannot know if the very minerals are without consciousness IF consciousness is woven through every point of space-time.
The particularities of THIS ambulatory node of space-time is that I AM aware, self-aware, aware of other quadrants of experience (to reference Ken Wilber's AQAL). Moreover, I AM a unique expression of this ancient universe (as are you), the likes of which will never BE again exactly as I AM. This at last brings me to the issue of importance. I have been important to some people, and some animals (one's I've cared for and others by refraining from eating mammals). I have contributed to society, and to the general store of knowledge by the creation of my doctoral dissertation. If certain PMs are to be believed at face value, I have been important to some members of this Shroomery community. Just whether my existence has importance on other possible planes of Reality remains unknown to me. If humanity is the intention of a Creator, or the experiment of an intermediary life-form, then we might have importance to Being or beings beyond our comprehension. But regardless, we can all participate in meaning and cultivate importance by endeavoring towards Enlightenment, and by instructing others of our species by our moment-to-moment compassionate actions towards other beings, large or small. This is what the presence of Realized Beings in human history is all about - lights in the midst of darkness, teaching us to manifest light in the midst of darkness, compassion in the midst of fear, the cause for hate. Life is as meaningful and important as one values Enlightenment.
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/12/17 08:50 PM)
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
#24005604 - 01/12/17 09:15 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.
exactly
likewise "the universe"
learning to think does not mean learning how to construct castles in the air
it means learning that they are constructed out of thin air
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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I think your premise that there is "nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto" is a false premise.
The previous statement contravenes this statement:
Just whether my existence has importance on other possible planes of Reality remains unknown to me.
The fact that we can ask the question of life's importance at all shows that there is nothing concrete to peg the meaning of our lives onto. Through most of human history the meaning of life was be so obvious that asking the question would be meaningless, kinda like asking "what is the colour of that green apple?" The fact that we have asked the question means we have to decide the meaning of life, and that is a pretty tall order. Probably too much for most to handle without some negative consequences.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: laughingdog]
#24005619 - 01/12/17 09:20 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.
exactly
likewise "the universe"
learning to think does not mean learning how to construct castles in the air
it means learning that they are constructed out of thin air
Anything we wish to ground the meaning of our lives on must therefor be "thin air" which is not very comforting.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24005638 - 01/12/17 09:25 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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where does this strange notion come from?: that humans supposedly have a need for "meaning"?
they are more likely to have a need for spontaneity, mystery, and playfulness
anything with one purpose is a machine
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: laughingdog]
#24006146 - 01/13/17 03:13 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Machines often have multiple purposes. Your computer has multiple purposes.
As for the need for meaning, we need to feel that our actions have some consequence in the world and the grand scheme of the universe. Otherwise we feel empty, in my opinion this is a central aspect of human nature.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,810
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24006192 - 01/13/17 04:16 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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I've noticed this moreso nowadays.
The emptiness of human nature.
But the world around us sure isn't empty.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24006641 - 01/13/17 09:32 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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i guess the whole concept of trying to pinpoint anything is pointless, no pun intended. something is always derived from something, no one thing stands on its own, the question of what is God/universe is a question of who am I. and it is a question to be asked imo because without it from what platform do you stand on in search of truth? we have to start somewhere. meditation taught me i am a being just being, psychedelics taught me i am an all encompassing being and everything is being. looking at you is looking at me.
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Quote:
Green7Alchemist said: i guess the whole concept of trying to pinpoint anything is pointless, no pun intended. something is always derived from something, no one thing stands on its own, the question of what is God/universe is a question of who am I. and it is a question to be asked imo because without it from what platform do you stand on in search of truth? we have to start somewhere.
"Nothing is so good, or so noble, that something still better or nobler could not be conceived; but right is only one"
-footnote in Fichte's Attempt of a Critique of All Revelation
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
#24006742 - 01/13/17 10:18 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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i rather like that quote.
the present is a place to dwell full of possibilities.. different branches to climb
nonetheless on the same tree, some monkeys think their branch is better and it might be from their point of view but no point of view is incorrect if we be one.
when we see that we are all on the same tree, the perspective changes now your listening to your fellow chimp and you're on the same branch as him eating his fruit but your point of view changed.
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Quote:
Green7Alchemist said: nonetheless on the same tree, some monkeys think their branch is better and it might be from their point of view but no point of view is incorrect if we be one.
when we see that we are all on the same tree, the perspective changes now your listening to your fellow chimp and you're on the same branch as him eating his fruit but your point of view changed.
The consensus evolved then, because Fichte went on to say "Joy is universal over the failure of evil purposes and over the discovery and punishment of the villain"- That's pretty much where I stopped reading.
(In context: "...since all purposiveness is viewed with satisfaction, it would have to excite a feeling of pleasure in us. And indeed, so it is in reality. Joy is universal over the failure of evil purposes and over the discovery and punishment of the villain, just as over the success of honest endeavors, over the recognition of misunderstood virtue, and over the compensation of the righteous for the insults suffered and the sacrifices made along the way of virtue.")
Edited by Buster_Brown (01/13/17 12:24 PM)
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
#24007222 - 01/13/17 01:53 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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this book looks interesting o.O
but would you agree that even a villain can be a victim,
Lex Luthor views superman as a demon
when the statement said joy is universal over.... these things. i think is ambiguous in a sense because how can my joy compare to yours .
-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
#24007396 - 01/13/17 02:43 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.
exactly
likewise "the universe"
learning to think does not mean learning how to construct castles in the air
it means learning that they are constructed out of thin air
Anything we wish to ground the meaning of our lives on must therefor be "thin air" which is not very comforting.
OK, you are mixing the container for the content. naturally if you try to put your bowl into the applesauce, you will come out with something messy, but if you put the apple sauce into the bowl, you can eat it and share it without any mess.
Meaning has to do with what is associated, even the term implied means it is associated in memory as a thing that is followed by another thing.
In this way things have meaning. They connect to other things in meaning.
but we can use the word to confuse ourselves - for example "meaningful relationship" what does it imply, what does it mean? well, it suggests a plurality of meanings, since it is full of meaning, or a plurality of associations. Some may take it to be common interests, or common history, or other things in common, or shared ownership, shared work, etc. Similarities also create and enhance association or meaning without necessarily having causal impact.
so a pen and a knife are both tools, both longish, both fit in pocket (maybe), but one does not imply the other, yet they have commonality, which can have meaning in some situations.
so "what is the meaning of life" there are oceans of association with "life" the word, life the idea, life the process, life the science, my life, your life, their lives. There are reams of declarations from thinkers, theologians, mystics, and politicians specifying their ideas of a meaning in life and a purpose to life that fits in their kookie cosmologies.
And that is the crux of this thinking, cosmology, and this usually is mystic, or conjectural or reasonably incomplete and open if it is scientific.
Good luck with your thinking
--------------------
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
#24007572 - 01/13/17 03:36 PM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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cosmetology is all about looking good. as usual, your argument about the ugly people winning won't fly.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
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Quote:
Green7Alchemist said: would you agree that even a villain can be a victim,
This is the 2nd question I'm want to pass over, the definition of good and evil, and villains and heroes, being subjective.
Yes, chaos is associated with freedom and therefor can be said to be 'good' unless someone is a victim and then it becomes 'bad', whereas order is associated with the lack of freedom and is therefor 'evil' until the welfare of a group is valued over an individual and then it becomes 'good' and yes both villains and heroes can be victims.
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