Home | Community | Message Board

Original Seeds Store
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society
    #23985167 - 01/05/17 08:59 PM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Some ideas that I've been grappling with lately are the rise of individualism and secularism, and its effects on our conception of our place in the universe.

We used to live in a universe that was made specifically for us by an omnipotent creator God, it was quite small in some respects, only 4000 years old, only ourselves, some demons, a hirachy of angels and God. Before the christian era it was even smaller.

Now we live in a vast and ever expanding universe, largely hostile to life and with nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto. The universe appears as a vast emptiness to us, not because it is in fact empty, but because we are unable to imagine ourselves as being important in this vast universe.

I think this has resulted in what I call a turn to gnosticism, or individualist religious attitudes; because without a meaningful universe we must find meaning within. The modern interest with psychology is a symptom of this, as is our culture of self-help and of course many new age spiritualities which often have a very inward looking and individualist bent. The modern fascination with orientalism and particularly buddhism also falls into this category.

What do you guys think? In what ways do you think the modern scientific explanation of the universe alienates us from meaningfulness and what effects do you think this has on the modern mind/soul/dharma/whatever?

I know there are some atheists out here that will immediately point out that the world can be meaningful without an ultimate redemptive force of God or whatever you want to call it. I'm open to believing that is true, but its not exactly the same is it? Its not like when you stop believing in santa clause, that the santa clause sized hole in your heart is filled with something that exactly fits his joyous contours.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23985772 - 01/06/17 04:08 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

oi!



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23985797 - 01/06/17 04:33 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
... Its not like when you stop believing in santa clause, that the santa clause sized hole in your heart is filled with something that exactly fits his joyous contours...



emptiness can be so precious


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23985807 - 01/06/17 04:48 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

"Sometimes you lose something and you get something better."




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23985839 - 01/06/17 05:54 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
What do you guys think? In what ways do you think the modern scientific explanation of the universe alienates us




Perhaps indeed science "kills" spirit by pinning it down.
ref: The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. (2 Cor. 3:6)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #23985894 - 01/06/17 07:29 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

To the extent that the language of science exceeds the comprehension of those without scientific education, the general population is excluded from science, though this is to a much lesser extent than the exclusions by clergy to the faithful of any meaningful knowledge and history.

At least with science, the limits to knowledge are admitted, and claims are not made which are contrary to what is observable when using the repeatable methods.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23985912 - 01/06/17 07:46 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

The uninitiated is at a loss in either field.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #23985930 - 01/06/17 08:01 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

you can initiate yourself with science and books or internet
and you probably wont be sexually abused in the process


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23985944 - 01/06/17 08:10 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Is it 'unscientific' to take the strap to the perpetrator, in your opinion?

Of course not and we yield to the 'strap' wielded by authority.

Pain then is undoubtedly a scientific remedy for misconduct, and we yield to the authority that wields it, while not claiming to be an authority ourselves because we have no authority to wield the strap.

As scientists, in this thread, we may not concur on the identity of the authority that discerns the applicable remedy for each individual in each situation, but given that remedies are not all inclusive across the board we might think that the remedy can be tailored to the individual, allowing then for a variety of measurable effects within a sample. Indeed to show an undeniable effect across-the-board we would have to gather together, as a sample, a group sharing specific characteristics, which perhaps is a scientific basis for predestination based on the characteristic of an individual.

This hypothesis accounts for abuses of any kind.; Can you disprove it?


Edited by Buster_Brown (01/06/17 10:35 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23986203 - 01/06/17 10:30 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

i agree with you maybe it is not the universe that is empty but our understanding of it,

i think to first find that which we look for out there we must first find it in here.

on the other hand we have disconnected ourselves far from natural law, we do not have guidance in the sky's of our cities.

we are so far removed from life this i think has numbed people to the idea of a higher power, why pray to the sun when wal-mart has mango's year round?


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #23986761 - 01/06/17 02:59 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Exactly, the stars used to tell the story of humanities cosmic meaningfulness. Now we have a vast expanding emptiness. Your point about food and the modern economy  is also on point. Fruit is from a niave perspective a kind of miracle. It's like bottled sunshine, but it somehow loses its shine when we see it as a product of modern economic systems.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #23986783 - 01/06/17 03:06 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
What do you guys think? In what ways do you think the modern scientific explanation of the universe alienates us




Perhaps indeed science "kills" spirit by pinning it down.
ref: The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. (2 Cor. 3:6)




In reference to the above post, didn't Jesus say something like "man cannot live on bread alone" He appears to have known that food without a higher connection leaves us empty.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23986791 - 01/06/17 03:09 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
To the extent that the language of science exceeds the comprehension of those without scientific education, the general population is excluded from science, though this is to a much lesser extent than the exclusions by clergy to the faithful of any meaningful knowledge and history.

At least with science, the limits to knowledge are admitted, and claims are not made which are contrary to what is observable when using the repeatable methods.




The average person in the west knows enough about science too derive values from their perhaps limited knowledge.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 2
    #23986912 - 01/06/17 03:54 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Science is cool. The physicalist dogma that comes with it is not cool, and is why people who have seek ultimate answers are looking for something beyond science.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23987661 - 01/06/17 08:16 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Yeah, but everything "beyond science" seems to be equally, if not more, dogmatic and also inconsistent with rationality. This is why we hear so much "woo-woo" from the new agers. You have to ignore some of the facts of science, disregard rationality and look within your own subjective mindscape to create a meaningful existence these days. I don't think it used to be like that. God, or the ultimate force of the universe, the spirits, whatever, were objects in the real world in a way which the majority in the west can no longer support.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 32 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23987724 - 01/06/17 08:45 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Hmm well people do have personal spiritual experiences which demonstrate to them that there is more than the current physicalist models allow for. And not just experiences on drugs, but also in meditation, or other states of being. I think it is very premature to declare that the current scientific models disprove and exclude any room for the spiritual without someone being irrational. A lot of what passes as rationality is simply following the same grooves of thought that create the current models - after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: deff]
    #23987778 - 01/06/17 09:00 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: deff]
    #23987866 - 01/06/17 09:34 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Hmm well people do have personal spiritual experiences which demonstrate to them that there is more than the current physicalist models allow for. And not just experiences on drugs, but also in meditation, or other states of being. I think it is very premature to declare that the current scientific models disprove and exclude any room for the spiritual without someone being irrational. A lot of what passes as rationality is simply following the same grooves of thought that create the current models - after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:




Yeah there is nothing you can say to convince someone that rationality is valuable. My belief is that when we take into account the facts science has presented us about the universe we inhabit it is rational to assume that we are very small and in the grand scheme of the universe, very insignificant things, and this is hard to stomach, which is why people fear rationality and the facts which science have presented us with. So we turn inward to a kind of new age gnosticism to ground the meaning of our lives.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23987905 - 01/06/17 09:52 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

I like to think we live in a heaven on Earth in a hell that is the universe.

For me it's a perspective I can look to for gratitude and appreciation that I have a chance to live in such a beautiful world in such a hostile universe.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23987925 - 01/06/17 10:02 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:

Now we live in a vast and ever expanding universe, largely hostile to life and with nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto.




I wonder why we might consider the universe "hostile" to life.

Each moment of our life, thousands of biological processes work to keep us alive.

When life doesn't conform to our expectations, should we curse it?

Our so called "search for meaning" is the road to Hell.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23987951 - 01/06/17 10:13 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

blingbling said:

Now we live in a vast and ever expanding universe, largely hostile to life and with nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto.




I wonder why we might consider the universe "hostile" to life.

Each moment of our life, thousands of biological processes work to keep us alive.

When life doesn't conform to our expectations, should we curse it?

Our so called "search for meaning" is the road to Hell.




Then we are on a road to hell because everyone knows what it means to search for meaning. If you had have asked people about their "search for meaning" in the middle ages they would have just look at you like you were mentally challenged. The idea that life could lack meaning is very new.

Also, as far as I am aware most of the known universe cannot support life, so the majority of the universe is therefor hostile to life.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23987962 - 01/06/17 10:16 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I like to think we live in a heaven on Earth in a hell that is the universe.

For me it's a perspective I can look to for gratitude and appreciation that I have a chance to live in such a beautiful world in such a hostile universe.




Its important to be grateful for what we have, but we still have a need to place ourselves in the universe in a way that positions us as meaningful players in a meaningful universe. Without that we encounter existential dilemmas that can be utilised for horrible purposes.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23987974 - 01/06/17 10:21 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

If one desires to live on Mars, I understand how you can view the universe as hostile.

Some people consider it very wise to abandon the search for "meaning".

When you really look deeply at this egocentric urge, it's wacky silliness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23987976 - 01/06/17 10:22 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

I think we need a way to appreciate the destructive power of the universe, but this is very difficult.

I can yammer on about how we should appreciate the destructive power of the universe as a creative force, but when you are holding your dead child in your arms you would have to be some kind of saint to find this comforting. Most people need more than that, like a heaven where you are reunited with everyone in bliss and harmony. That's what religion used to offer, and that is what we now lack.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23987985 - 01/06/17 10:25 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
If one desires to live on Mars, I understand how you can view the universe as hostile.

Some people consider it very wise to abandon the search for "meaning".

When you really look deeply at this egocentric urge, it's wacky silliness.




I don't think it is wacky silliness, I think it is a totally normal thing for people to do. All cultures have stories they tell themselves in order to find their place in the universe. It is egocentric, but we are naturally egocentric and trying to not be egocentric is to engage in an up-hill battle that for most of human history was not even attempted.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23988021 - 01/06/17 10:37 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

There may be no inherent meanings to life but there is definitely value in life and a purpose which is that to live.

The universe is hostile to life because your blood will boil in a vacuum. Here on Earth that doesn't happen so it is essentially a relative heaven.

When you people say there is no meaning to life all I hear is that you have found no value or meaning in your own life and that's pretty depressing to hear.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23988032 - 01/06/17 10:42 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Anger, greed, jealousy, and envy are seen by many to be "totally normal".

(To abandon this notion is not an "up-hill battle")

To maintain this perspective creates and supports suffering.

And yes, we are very very good at that!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23988036 - 01/06/17 10:43 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

When you people say there is no meaning to life all I hear is that you have found no value or meaning in your own life . . .




amen


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: deff] * 2
    #23988039 - 01/06/17 10:45 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

deff said:
after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:




To me this is an extremely neglected question - if you don't know what the purpose of existence is, you cannot say what is rational, for in order for something to be rational it must accord with reality.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor]
    #23988081 - 01/06/17 11:03 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:

. . . if you don't know what the purpose of existence is, you cannot say what is rational, for in order for something to be rational it must accord with reality.




Does this relate to religion?

Religious people say stuff like, "My purpose is to glorify God."

Which, for them, makes everything in life rational.

Once you have a goal, everything seems to make sense.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23988279 - 01/07/17 12:31 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
There may be no inherent meanings to life but there is definitely value in life and a purpose which is that to live.

The universe is hostile to life because your blood will boil in a vacuum. Here on Earth that doesn't happen so it is essentially a relative heaven.

When you people say there is no meaning to life all I hear is that you have found no value or meaning in your own life and that's pretty depressing to hear.


t
I'm not saying life has no meaning. I couldn't possibly know that. I'm saying that the common notion of that life could possibly have no meaning is very new historically speaking, and that the introduction of this possiblity has caused some problems. Your argument is essentially an ad hominem. You assume too much.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23988281 - 01/07/17 12:32 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Anger, greed, jealousy, and envy are seen by many to be "totally normal".

(To abandon this notion is not an "up-hill battle")

To maintain this perspective creates and supports suffering.

And yes, we are very very good at that!




We are also very good at denying reality to suit our own purposes.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23988513 - 01/07/17 03:58 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Then fill me in.

Quote:

blingbling said: You have to ignore some of the facts of science, disregard rationality and look within your own subjective mindscape to create a meaningful existence these days.




Care to explain what this means, or what facts of science need to be ignored to be able to have a meaningful existence? 

Quote:

blingbling said: we still have a need to place ourselves in the universe in a way that positions us as meaningful players in a meaningful universe.




Can't we be meaningful players in a meaningless universe?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: deff]
    #23988517 - 01/07/17 04:03 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Hmm well people do have personal spiritual experiences which demonstrate to them that there is more than the current physicalist models allow for. And not just experiences on drugs, but also in meditation, or other states of being. I think it is very premature to declare that the current scientific models disprove and exclude any room for the spiritual without someone being irrational. A lot of what passes as rationality is simply following the same grooves of thought that create the current models - after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:



Indeed. Interesting words. Science hasn't necessarily improved life in terms of satisfying the human need for happiness, and may lead to our annihilation.

Some rationality . . .


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23988520 - 01/07/17 04:08 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

50+ years of extra life is plenty of time for happiness.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor]
    #23988614 - 01/07/17 06:13 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

deff said:
after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:




To me this is an extremely neglected question - if you don't know what the purpose of existence is, you cannot say what is rational, for in order for something to be rational it must accord with reality.




I don't think that the "model" of rationality requires a purposed point of view.

whether or not a belief system is fundamental (and skewing the observations), each view is contextual, and the consensus can address that.

For a view to have some validity ("rational" being interpreted here to mean that some consistently clear story connects the parts of the view - ergo revealing validation) the individual can intentionally observe without prejudice by use of "the middle way" - techniques for self-tempered thinking.

a "middle way" approach is a 'rational' one without any assumption of any primal cause or purpose, because it is contextually consistent and continuously self-tempered.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor]
    #23989215 - 01/07/17 11:13 AM (7 years, 23 days ago)

human beings are selectively rational. they are not entirely rational, even our rationality is only part-rational, the rest that leads us is emotional & physical.

PS: yeah, there's a definite turn to individualism happening but people seem to refuse to admit to the fact that they are always going to be a part of a collective, which has it's fair-share of problems to tackle, all of which require more than the attempt at separation, to actually address.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23989591 - 01/07/17 01:35 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Then fill me in.

Quote:

blingbling said: You have to ignore some of the facts of science, disregard rationality and look within your own subjective mindscape to create a meaningful existence these days.




Care to explain what this means, or what facts of science need to be ignored to be able to have a meaningful existence? 

Quote:

blingbling said: we still have a need to place ourselves in the universe in a way that positions us as meaningful players in a meaningful universe.




Can't we be meaningful players in a meaningless universe?




It is difficult to maintain meaning at the cosmic level when the facts of evolution (that we are breath gasping, fornicating assemblages of biological protoplasm) and the facts of astronomy (that we are small and likely insignificant creatures compared to the enormous forces at play in the universe) are taken into account. You are a small animal hurtling through space on a rock that will likely be burnt up by an expanding sun destroying all memory that you ever existed. Who do you know that upon hearing this would rejoice?

Being a meaningful player means playing a meaningful game, so no to your second question.


I should preface this by saying that meaning can exist at different levels. I am not saying we cannot have meaningful relationships etc. In fact, I think economically and morally humanity has never been better off, but from the cosmic or spiritual level we have never been so poorly prepared.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23989597 - 01/07/17 01:40 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
human beings are selectively rational. they are not entirely rational, even our rationality is only part-rational, the rest that leads us is emotional & physical.

PS: yeah, there's a definite turn to individualism happening but people seem to refuse to admit to the fact that they are always going to be a part of a collective, which has it's fair-share of problems to tackle, all of which require more than the attempt at separation, to actually address.




This is why a lot of the new age stuff with its emphasis on the environment is misguided. They are just as much apart of the economic-industrial order as anyone else. Their care for the environment is often repackaged and sold back to them at a profit.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23989814 - 01/07/17 03:17 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

You're worried about the earth burning up in 4 billion years? The point isn't to rejoice the earths demise but to rejoice the life you'll have before that happens.

Meanings aren't inherent so I don't agree there are multiple levels of it.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23990006 - 01/07/17 04:14 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

it's always contextual
it's always about context(s)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23990719 - 01/07/17 08:00 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
You're worried about the earth burning up in 4 billion years? The point isn't to rejoice the earths demise but to rejoice the life you'll have before that happens.

Meanings aren't inherent so I don't agree there are multiple levels of it.




What you are endorsing is essentially hedonism, and like meditation, it can be used to forget ones problems, but it still feels pretty empty I think. There is only so much forgetting that one can do before their problems catch up to them.

People like to believe that their actions have some staying power, that they are making a difference, a contribution to the world. History erases everything and time will eat away at our most cherished accomplishments. Without some ultimate redemptive force most people find the this pretty disheartening. Religion used to give us the ultimate staying power, immortality. But it is getting increasingly difficult to believe in such things.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23990800 - 01/07/17 08:22 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Hedonism doesn't sound so bad.

Quote:

Hedonism(in philosophy): the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.




Though I understand that issues would arise when one has desires to harm other human beings.

What we do as individuals probably won't contribute anything to the world as a whole but we can certainly contribute to ourselves, our friends and our families.

Then appreciate things while they are there, 'Cus diamonds they fade and flowers they bloom.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23992213 - 01/08/17 11:53 AM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

sudly said:
You're worried about the earth burning up in 4 billion years? The point isn't to rejoice the earths demise but to rejoice the life you'll have before that happens.

Meanings aren't inherent so I don't agree there are multiple levels of it.




What you are endorsing is essentially hedonism, and like meditation, it can be used to forget ones problems, but it still feels pretty empty I think. There is only so much forgetting that one can do before their problems catch up to them.

People like to believe that their actions have some staying power, that they are making a difference, a contribution to the world. History erases everything and time will eat away at our most cherished accomplishments. Without some ultimate redemptive force most people find the this pretty disheartening. Religion used to give us the ultimate staying power, immortality. But it is getting increasingly difficult to believe in such things.




The typical view of hedonism for those who frown upon it is that it's a dead end. Perhaps the willingness to satiate ones hedonistic urges can come with unforeseen benefits that broaden ones perspective. I consider myself a hedonist and see it as both an enjoyment and a means to an end.

Hedonism and meditation aren't inherently empty. It's what you make of it, though in contrast to meditation hedonism seems more likely to be revealing while meditation is more of a digestive process and the product of the digestive process. In order for meditation to be useful one must eat first.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23992582 - 01/08/17 02:27 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Hedonism doesn't sound so bad.

Quote:

Hedonism(in philosophy): the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.




Though I understand that issues would arise when one has desires to harm other human beings.

What we do as individuals probably won't contribute anything to the world as a whole but we can certainly contribute to ourselves, our friends and our families.

Then appreciate things while they are there, 'Cus diamonds they fade and flowers they bloom.






yeah hedonism despite what some say is not the worst thing in the world, but it is spiritually empty. That's all I'm saying.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Rahz]
    #23992588 - 01/08/17 02:28 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

sudly said:
You're worried about the earth burning up in 4 billion years? The point isn't to rejoice the earths demise but to rejoice the life you'll have before that happens.

Meanings aren't inherent so I don't agree there are multiple levels of it.




What you are endorsing is essentially hedonism, and like meditation, it can be used to forget ones problems, but it still feels pretty empty I think. There is only so much forgetting that one can do before their problems catch up to them.

People like to believe that their actions have some staying power, that they are making a difference, a contribution to the world. History erases everything and time will eat away at our most cherished accomplishments. Without some ultimate redemptive force most people find the this pretty disheartening. Religion used to give us the ultimate staying power, immortality. But it is getting increasingly difficult to believe in such things.




The typical view of hedonism for those who frown upon it is that it's a dead end. Perhaps the willingness to satiate ones hedonistic urges can come with unforeseen benefits that broaden ones perspective. I consider myself a hedonist and see it as both an enjoyment and a means to an end.

Hedonism and meditation aren't inherently empty. It's what you make of it, though in contrast to meditation hedonism seems more likely to be revealing while meditation is more of a digestive process and the product of the digestive process. In order for meditation to be useful one must eat first.




I think they are pretty similar in the sense that they both distract you from the bigger picture, your place in the universe etc. Which is fine if that's what you want to do.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23992651 - 01/08/17 02:54 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

what bigger picture?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23992857 - 01/08/17 03:59 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

The universe and our place in it.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23992950 - 01/08/17 04:26 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

that's a big picture,
hard to focus on it, and even harder to keep it in mind while following a political line of thought
Quote:

blingbling said:
...

This is why a lot of the new age stuff with its emphasis on the environment is misguided. They are just as much apart of the economic-industrial order as anyone else. Their care for the environment is often repackaged and sold back to them at a profit.




Of course selling a political line of thought as a shrink wrapped revelation: "Your Place In the Universe is Here", is not the same as experiencing it directly, which is  what meditation is especially good for, minus political affiliation (not that that is such a bad thing to go without).


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23993229 - 01/08/17 06:15 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
The universe and our place in it.




What is our place in it?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Rahz]
    #23993469 - 01/08/17 07:24 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
The universe and our place in it.




What is our place in it?




That is for you to decide :cheersyoufuck:


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23993511 - 01/08/17 07:39 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that's a big picture,
hard to focus on it, and even harder to keep it in mind while following a political line of thought
Quote:

blingbling said:
...

This is why a lot of the new age stuff with its emphasis on the environment is misguided. They are just as much apart of the economic-industrial order as anyone else. Their care for the environment is often repackaged and sold back to them at a profit.




Of course selling a political line of thought as a shrink wrapped revelation: "Your Place In the Universe is Here", is not the same as experiencing it directly, which is  what meditation is especially good for, minus political affiliation (not that that is such a bad thing to go without).




You seem to be mixing two somewhat different lines of argumentation in a confusing way (at least for me).

When you admit, come to the realisation of, proclaim or whatever, your place in the universe e.g. as children of God, as biological machines designed by natural selection to propagate its genes etc. you are experiencing your own internal construction of how the universe works and your place in it eg. as a pious disciple, a biological machine etc. Our construction of the universe is built up of various ideas. The act of having these ideas is to experience your construction of the universe, which is to say that you are always experiencing it directly, you don't need meditation to do that.

In my opinion meditation (at least as it is commonly practiced in the west) is more about the cessation of these ideas via seeing the illusory nature of mental phenomena, the self etc. For a brief time this allows one to bypass the existential dilemma "what am I doing here?" because the question itself becomes simply a thought which arises and descends like all other mental phenomena. I am agnostic as to whether this is a good idea, I think that by ignoring these questions it could come back to bite the meditator on the proverbial ass.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23993767 - 01/08/17 08:53 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Hedonism might not be spiritual in the short term, but it sure is in the long term, because the pursuit of it will expose you to a wide variety of perspectives.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23994318 - 01/09/17 02:36 AM (7 years, 22 days ago)

while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.

Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"

thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor]
    #23994410 - 01/09/17 05:20 AM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Hedonism might not be spiritual in the short term, but it sure is in the long term, because the pursuit of it will expose you to a wide variety of perspectives.




Being exposed to a wide variety of perspectives is essentially the same as saying you will learn something, but I can learn algebra and this will not likely give me a spiritual connection to the universe unless I import a bunch of other ideas also, so your point is moot.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23994412 - 01/09/17 05:22 AM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.

Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"

thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.




That's exactly my point, meditation bypasses these questions, at least for a short time. But I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I think there is some merit in grappling with these questions.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23995482 - 01/09/17 03:03 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Hedonism might not be spiritual in the short term, but it sure is in the long term, because the pursuit of it will expose you to a wide variety of perspectives.




Being exposed to a wide variety of perspectives is essentially the same as saying you will learn something, but I can learn algebra and this will not likely give me a spiritual connection to the universe unless I import a bunch of other ideas also, so your point is moot.




Learn some biology then, that's the kind of stuff that will teach you every single life form on Earth is genetically connected.

Chemistry can be great for new perspectives too, personally when I learnt the basics of the periodic table of elements I was fascinated by the simplest things such as incense sticks because I was able to understand what I was looking which was electrons being torn from matter.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletHEfLY
Stranger
Registered: 04/16/16
Posts: 427
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23995553 - 01/09/17 03:35 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Note that Gnosticism originally appeared in cosmopolitan cities like Alexandria and is in essence a mythology of alienation. I see this type of atomized individualism as a byproduct of multiculturalism and the egalitarian theories supporting it. Collective social structures start to break down when there is no common language for different groups to communicate with and society at large cannot agree on fundamental ideals, let alone anything relating to transcendence. That kind of thing is simply not talked about by anyone in the public sphere, lest anyone feel excluded, and a culture where nobody can be excluded is a culture where nobody can be included. (Alex Kurtagic is a Spanish writer who has published some good essays about how the imposition of equality destroys meaning in life)

This culture has (I think through deliberate social engineering) replaced religious feelings and organic collective identities with libertarian consumerism, so a person born into this environment having no connection to the past and no connection to the wider community has no choice except to find their own way through "Gnostic" heresies.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23995583 - 01/09/17 03:48 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Hedonism might not be spiritual in the short term, but it sure is in the long term, because the pursuit of it will expose you to a wide variety of perspectives.




Being exposed to a wide variety of perspectives is essentially the same as saying you will learn something, but I can learn algebra and this will not likely give me a spiritual connection to the universe unless I import a bunch of other ideas also, so your point is moot.




Learn some biology then, that's the kind of stuff that will teach you every single life form on Earth is genetically connected.

Chemistry can be great for new perspectives too, personally when I learnt the basics of the periodic table of elements I was fascinated by the simplest things such as incense sticks because I was able to understand what I was looking which was electrons being torn from matter.






I've done year 12 level biology and chemistry, I enjoyed it but I don't think I'll take it any further.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
    #23995601 - 01/09/17 03:54 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

tHEfLY said:
Note that Gnosticism originally appeared in cosmopolitan cities like Alexandria and is in essence a mythology of alienation. I see this type of atomized individualism as a byproduct of multiculturalism and the egalitarian theories supporting it. Collective social structures start to break down when there is no common language for different groups to communicate with and society at large cannot agree on fundamental ideals, let alone anything relating to transcendence. That kind of thing is simply not talked about by anyone in the public sphere, lest anyone feel excluded, and a culture where nobody can be excluded is a culture where nobody can be included. (Alex Kurtagic is a Spanish writer who has published some good essays about how the imposition of equality destroys meaning in life)

This culture has (I think through deliberate social engineering) replaced religious feelings and organic collective identities with libertarian consumerism, so a person born into this environment having no connection to the past and no connection to the wider community has no choice except to find their own way through "Gnostic" heresies.




Well put :super: I'll have to check out kurtagic. It's interesting to think about the culture of inclusion and exclusion with regard to the rise of populism in our times. People are begining to react against the culture of inclusion in unpredictable ways.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23995642 - 01/09/17 04:06 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23995698 - 01/09/17 04:30 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

people think they can construct a perfect world. but without striving, what kind of world is there?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24004613 - 01/12/17 04:03 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.

Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"

thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.




That's exactly my point, meditation bypasses these questions, at least for a short time. But I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I think there is some merit in grappling with these questions.



what part about a being DISORIENTED as a result of word salad do you like?
the question is not meaningful, but it challenges the monkey mind. same as "what is the purpose of life?"
word salad - not a real question, life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24004681 - 01/12/17 04:25 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.

Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"

thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.




That's exactly my point, meditation bypasses these questions, at least for a short time. But I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I think there is some merit in grappling with these questions.



what part about a being DISORIENTED as a result of word salad do you like?
the question is not meaningful, but it challenges the monkey mind. same as "what is the purpose of life?"
word salad - not a real question, life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.




Must be closing in on dinner time.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24005258 - 01/12/17 07:15 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.

Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"

thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.




That's exactly my point, meditation bypasses these questions, at least for a short time. But I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I think there is some merit in grappling with these questions.



what part about a being DISORIENTED as a result of word salad do you like?
the question is not meaningful, but it challenges the monkey mind. same as "what is the purpose of life?"
word salad - not a real question, life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.




The fact that we ask the question at all evidences our spiritual decadence. Meditation practices are largely a byproduct of this spiritual decadence. Meditation is bound up with spiritual decadence in the same way that antidepressants are bound up with the social construction of the depressed.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 2
    #24005424 - 01/12/17 08:07 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Now we live in a vast and ever expanding universe, largely hostile to life and with nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto. The universe appears as a vast emptiness to us, not because it is in fact empty, but because we are unable to imagine ourselves as being important in this vast universe.

I think your premise that there is "nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto" is a false premise. I have in large measure reconciled faith with reason, and one of the results has been a dissolution of 'beliefs,' but my faith in what we can simply call God remains. Beliefs are ideas that have been quarantined from further analysis. As such, they become dogmas which are defined as  "incontrovertible truths." There are no such things. For example, I have analyzed Christian dogmas down to the fascinating dogma of a Trinitarian God, Una Substantia Tres Personas, and I've looked at Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox doctrines about this dogma. One can see how this dogma developed in the 3rd century from a single extra-biblical term 'trinity,' first used by Tertullian, who was himself condemned as a heretic afterwards. The Eastern Orthodox Church has the most interesting contributors to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, with modern theologians still attempting to add to it, most importantly, attempting to attribute an Eternal Feminine to the neutral Holy Spirit (harkening back to the original divine trinity in Egypt of Osiris-Horus-Isis). Conversely, there have been attempts in Protestant Christianity to dissolve trinitarian thought entirely, reducing it to its original Hebrew roots in ONE God (see https://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-Trinity-Christianitys-Self-Inflicted-Wound/dp/1573093092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484274484&sr=8-1&keywords=the+doctrine+of+the++trinity ). ALL of these doctrines have their own internal logic, but every one can be dissolved without destroying faith and meaning in my subjective experience.

'Beliefs' are no longer the basis of meaningful life, but even as Buddha postulated, "Right Faith" is necessary, and faith is separate from belief. Now, what I have very recently come to realize (from the book Rational Mysticism: Spirituality Meets Science in the Search for Enlightenment by John Horgan) is another dissonance that I have to work on, (as I did earlier with faith and reason that was cleared up by the work of Rev. John Shelby Spong). The new dissonance, really an old one that I kept avoiding, is between mysticism and gnosticism. I provisionally held a definition that the importance of gnosticism was an abiding sense of Transcendental Identity, the 'I' or "Witness" that Ram Dass described in the preface to BE HERE NOW, which is an awareness that is wise, not knowledgeable (as in the meaning of another word for knowledge, epistemé). The wisdom is a contentless Presence, which if any attribute dare be ascribed would be compassion or agapé (biblically speaking), or karuna and metta (compassion and loving-kindness) in Indian religion. But this is not properly gnostic thought, this is mysticism. In a nutshell, the position that Everything is ultimately OK is the position of mysticism while the position that Everything is ultimately NOT OK describes gnostic religion.

So now I have to work out a Synthesis from the Thesis and Antithesis of Mysticism and Gnosticism. The Gnostics created a plethora of complex and bizarre myths to account for evil in God (theodicy), while the mysticism at least found in BE HERE NOW, a "Perennial Philosophy," speaks to a radical determinism where Everything is perfect - except for our ability to see it. Now this used to comfort me a great deal, but that was because I never found myself in a Nazi gas chamber in Auschwitz or anything remotely as horrible. What continues to give meaning to my life is the realization that the universe is unitary, and I am not separate from it inasmuch as I am as much co-extensive with space-time as any other body in space, large or small. While I cannot say definitively that each of the planets in our unique solar system do not have a 'planetary spirit [consciousness],' I DO Realize that this unitary universe experiences itself locally though ME. I am not lifeless, and indeed I cannot know if the very minerals are without consciousness IF consciousness is woven through every point of space-time.

The particularities of THIS ambulatory node of space-time is that I AM aware, self-aware, aware of other quadrants of experience (to reference Ken Wilber's AQAL). Moreover, I AM a unique expression of this ancient universe (as are you), the likes of which will never BE again exactly as I AM. This at last brings me to the issue of importance. I have been important to some people, and some animals (one's I've cared for and others by refraining from eating mammals). I have contributed to society, and to the general store of knowledge by the creation of my doctoral dissertation. If certain PMs are to be believed at face value, I have been important to some members of this Shroomery community. Just whether my existence has importance on other possible planes of Reality remains unknown to me. If humanity is the intention of a Creator, or the experiment of an intermediary life-form, then we might have importance to Being or beings beyond our comprehension. But regardless, we can all participate in meaning and cultivate importance by endeavoring towards Enlightenment, and by instructing others of our species by our moment-to-moment compassionate actions towards other beings, large or small. This is what the presence of Realized Beings in human history is all about - lights in the midst of darkness, teaching us to manifest light in the midst of darkness, compassion in the midst of fear, the cause for hate. Life is as meaningful and important as one values Enlightenment.


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/12/17 08:50 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24005604 - 01/12/17 09:15 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.




exactly

likewise "the universe"

learning to think does not mean learning how to construct castles in the air

it means learning that they are constructed out of thin air


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24005616 - 01/12/17 09:19 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

I think your premise that there is "nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto" is a false premise.

The previous statement contravenes this statement:

Just whether my existence has importance on other possible planes of Reality remains unknown to me.

The fact that we can ask the question of life's importance at all shows that there is nothing concrete to peg the meaning of our lives onto. Through most of human history the meaning of life was be so obvious that asking the question would be meaningless, kinda like asking "what is the colour of that green apple?" The fact that we have asked the question means we have to decide the meaning of life, and that is a pretty tall order. Probably too much for most to handle without some negative consequences.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: laughingdog]
    #24005619 - 01/12/17 09:20 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.




exactly

likewise "the universe"

learning to think does not mean learning how to construct castles in the air

it means learning that they are constructed out of thin air




Anything we wish to ground the meaning of our lives on must therefor be "thin air" which is not very comforting.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24005638 - 01/12/17 09:25 PM (7 years, 18 days ago)

where does this strange notion come from?:
that humans supposedly have a need for "meaning"?

they are more likely to have a need for spontaneity,  mystery, and playfulness

anything with one purpose is a machine


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: laughingdog]
    #24006146 - 01/13/17 03:13 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Machines often have multiple purposes. Your computer has multiple purposes.

As for the need for meaning, we need to feel that our actions have some consequence in the world and the grand scheme of the universe. Otherwise we feel empty, in my opinion this is a central aspect of human nature.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24006192 - 01/13/17 04:16 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

I've noticed this moreso nowadays.

The emptiness of human nature.

But the world around us sure isn't empty.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24006641 - 01/13/17 09:32 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

i guess the whole concept of trying to pinpoint anything is pointless, no pun intended.
something is always derived from something, no one thing stands on its own, the question of what is God/universe is a question of who am I.
and it is a question to be asked imo because without it from what platform do you stand on in search of truth? we have to start somewhere.
meditation taught me i am a being just being, psychedelics taught me i am an all encompassing being and everything is being.
looking at you is looking at me.


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24006693 - 01/13/17 09:58 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Green7Alchemist said:
i guess the whole concept of trying to pinpoint anything is pointless, no pun intended.
something is always derived from something, no one thing stands on its own, the question of what is God/universe is a question of who am I.
and it is a question to be asked imo because without it from what platform do you stand on in search of truth? we have to start somewhere.




"Nothing is so good, or so noble, that something still better or nobler could not be conceived; but right is only one"

-footnote in Fichte's Attempt of a Critique of All Revelation


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #24006742 - 01/13/17 10:18 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

i rather like that quote.

the present is a place to dwell full of possibilities.. different branches to climb

nonetheless on the same tree, some monkeys think their branch is better and it might be from their point of view but no point of view is incorrect if we be one.

when we see that we are all on the same tree, the perspective changes now your listening to your fellow chimp and you're on the same branch as him eating his fruit but your point of view changed.


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24007006 - 01/13/17 12:12 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Green7Alchemist said:
nonetheless on the same tree, some monkeys think their branch is better and it might be from their point of view but no point of view is incorrect if we be one.

when we see that we are all on the same tree, the perspective changes now your listening to your fellow chimp and you're on the same branch as him eating his fruit but your point of view changed.




The consensus evolved then, because Fichte went on to say "Joy is universal over the failure of evil purposes and over the discovery and punishment of the villain"- That's pretty much where I stopped reading.

(In context: "...since all purposiveness is viewed with satisfaction, it would have to excite a feeling of pleasure in us. And indeed, so it is in reality. Joy is universal over the failure of evil purposes and over the discovery and punishment of the villain, just as over the success of honest endeavors, over the recognition of misunderstood virtue, and over the compensation of the righteous for the insults suffered and the sacrifices made along the way of virtue.")


Edited by Buster_Brown (01/13/17 12:24 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #24007222 - 01/13/17 01:53 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

this book looks interesting o.O

but would you agree that even a villain can be a victim,

Lex Luthor views superman as a demon

when the statement said joy is universal over.... these things. i think is ambiguous in a sense because how can my joy compare to yours .


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24007396 - 01/13/17 02:43 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.




exactly

likewise "the universe"

learning to think does not mean learning how to construct castles in the air

it means learning that they are constructed out of thin air




Anything we wish to ground the meaning of our lives on must therefor be "thin air" which is not very comforting.




OK, you are mixing the container for the content.
naturally if you try to put your bowl into the applesauce, you will come out with something messy, but if you put the apple sauce into the bowl, you can eat it and share it without any mess.

Meaning has to do with what is associated, even the term implied means it is associated in memory as a thing that is followed by another thing.

In this way things have meaning. They connect to other things in meaning.

but we can use the word to confuse ourselves - for example
"meaningful relationship"
what does it imply, what does it mean?
well, it suggests a plurality of meanings, since it is full of meaning, or a plurality of associations.
Some may take it to be common interests, or common history, or other things in common, or shared ownership, shared work, etc. Similarities also create and enhance association or meaning without necessarily having causal impact.

so a pen and a knife are both tools, both longish, both fit in pocket (maybe), but one does not imply the other, yet they have commonality, which can have meaning in some situations.

so
"what is the meaning of life"
there are oceans of association with "life" the word, life the idea, life the process, life the science, my life, your life, their lives.
There are reams of declarations from thinkers, theologians, mystics, and politicians specifying their ideas of a meaning in life and a purpose to life that fits in their kookie cosmologies.

And that is the crux of this thinking, cosmology, and this usually is mystic, or conjectural or reasonably incomplete and open if it is scientific.

Good luck with your thinking


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24007572 - 01/13/17 03:36 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

cosmetology is all about looking good.  as usual, your argument about the ugly people winning won't fly.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 17 hours
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Green7Alchemist] * 1
    #24007660 - 01/13/17 04:10 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Green7Alchemist said:
would you agree that even a villain can be a victim,





This is the 2nd question I'm want to pass over, the definition of good and evil, and villains and heroes, being subjective.

Yes, chaos is associated with freedom and therefor can be said to be 'good' unless someone is a victim and then it becomes 'bad', whereas order is associated with the lack of freedom and is therefor 'evil' until the welfare of a group is valued over an individual and then it becomes 'good' and yes both villains and heroes can be victims.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #24007812 - 01/13/17 05:10 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

yuppp!!

i tried telling everyone Anarchy is the way to go but nooo Anarchist riot and they wear black boohoo well slave for the fucken system then !

:solved:

im convinced that we have been programmed by the mass media to believe bad is good and good is bad so that the elite can get away with their agenda,

mushrooms? bad!Dexmethylphenidate? good!


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24007823 - 01/13/17 05:15 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

I would take that Rubik cube, well.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24007840 - 01/13/17 05:22 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Where the fuck is Markos?

His getting drunk and spouting off was entertaining.  Probably come back and tell me off.  The usual.

Oh wait I'm crazy.  I can't be held accountable.  In fact, you owe me.



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24008235 - 01/13/17 08:38 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
life is not a thing that has a purpose, nor a manual, nor is it a product to be consumed, nor is it manufactured.




exactly

likewise "the universe"

learning to think does not mean learning how to construct castles in the air

it means learning that they are constructed out of thin air




Anything we wish to ground the meaning of our lives on must therefor be "thin air" which is not very comforting.




OK, you are mixing the container for the content.
naturally if you try to put your bowl into the applesauce, you will come out with something messy, but if you put the apple sauce into the bowl, you can eat it and share it without any mess.

Meaning has to do with what is associated, even the term implied means it is associated in memory as a thing that is followed by another thing.

In this way things have meaning. They connect to other things in meaning.

but we can use the word to confuse ourselves - for example
"meaningful relationship"
what does it imply, what does it mean?
well, it suggests a plurality of meanings, since it is full of meaning, or a plurality of associations.
Some may take it to be common interests, or common history, or other things in common, or shared ownership, shared work, etc. Similarities also create and enhance association or meaning without necessarily having causal impact.

so a pen and a knife are both tools, both longish, both fit in pocket (maybe), but one does not imply the other, yet they have commonality, which can have meaning in some situations.

so
"what is the meaning of life"
there are oceans of association with "life" the word, life the idea, life the process, life the science, my life, your life, their lives.
There are reams of declarations from thinkers, theologians, mystics, and politicians specifying their ideas of a meaning in life and a purpose to life that fits in their kookie cosmologies.

And that is the crux of this thinking, cosmology, and this usually is mystic, or conjectural or reasonably incomplete and open if it is scientific.

Good luck with your thinking




Sure, there is always a plurality of meanings. But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?" We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe. A wider universe which according to science has no values, which is why we continue to ask the question. We want an answer to this question that makes us feel valuable, eternal, and the modern cultural milieu cannot offer us one, so we are stuck in a thought loop.

Your using clever semantics to obfuscate the obvious. But through your obfuscation you point to the very problem you wish to ignore.

The plurality of meanings is part of the problem. If my story about how I am valuable to the universe, eternal, is true, than how can that other strange fellows story also be true? Are all the stories true or just mine? Coming into contact with the plurality of stories we tell ourselves about our meaningfulness degrades each and every one of them. This is why we are stuck in a postmodern existential dilemma where we cannot ground ourselves in any sort of truth claim. Science try's to become a monolith of truth claims, and it works to a certain degree, but science won't offer us what we really want, to be valuable members of a meaningful universe.

Again, it never used to be this way. Before the enlightenment most people could rely on their communal systems of redemption. But through contact with exotic others we have come into this plurality of meaning which calls into question the meaning of life.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #24008260 - 01/13/17 08:54 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

-Kurt Vonnegut


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24008328 - 01/13/17 09:45 PM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:

But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?"

We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe.




It's fascinating that existence is not enough.

And that people seek value outside of themselves.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24008534 - 01/14/17 12:07 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

What is the meaning of life? In your view/opinion?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24008739 - 01/14/17 02:28 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

blingbling said:

But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?"

We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe.




It's fascinating that existence is not enough.

And that people seek value outside of themselves.




Well we need meaning to justify action, in fact action presupposes meaning. Why do anything unless there is a meaning for it? The problem is that we need to feel that our actions are congruent with not just the meaning of the action itself, but the wider universe also. That is the whole point of religion. Science tells us that our actions are small and largely insignificant from the universal perspective, which is why people try not to be too rational lest their actions begin to bog down and they spiral into depression.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #24008741 - 01/14/17 02:30 AM (7 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
What is the meaning of life? In your view/opinion?




I honestly don't know, which is pretty much the same as saying there is no meaning to life, at least not at the grandest scale. Again, at a scale closer to home we can have plenty of meaning e.g. meaningful relationships etc. But, that won't give people everything that they want.


Edited by blingbling (01/14/17 02:59 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24008775 - 01/14/17 03:01 AM (7 years, 16 days ago)

Maybe this 'gnostic turn' 'means', simply said, that people start to find their own meaning and super-suppose it above the 'meaning' of all the other people ?
And yes, I agree with RGV that the meaning of life is like to keep that 'container' existing, which keeps this 'subjective' and 'individual' personal meaning. It is a meta concept.
Good thread <3


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #24008792 - 01/14/17 03:13 AM (7 years, 16 days ago)

Yes, we have to find our own meaning because our culture can no longer supply it + we are already existing is a plurality of meaning so the idea of an individually founded universal meaning becomes more plausible. But this spiritual/ideological move is not as powerful as the previous systems of redemption that were believed to be the only truth of the universe.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24009220 - 01/14/17 09:07 AM (7 years, 16 days ago)

I do not see how I am obfuscating
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

OK, you are mixing the container for the content.
naturally if you try to put your bowl into the applesauce, you will come out with something messy, but if you put the apple sauce into the bowl, you can eat it and share it without any mess.

Meaning has to do with what is associated, even the term implied means it is associated in memory as a thing that is followed by another thing.

In this way things have meaning. They connect to other things in meaning.

but we can use the word to confuse ourselves - for example
"meaningful relationship"
what does it imply, what does it mean?
well, it suggests a plurality of meanings, since it is full of meaning, or a plurality of associations.
Some may take it to be common interests, or common history, or other things in common, or shared ownership, shared work, etc. Similarities also create and enhance association or meaning without necessarily having causal impact.

so a pen and a knife are both tools, both longish, both fit in pocket (maybe), but one does not imply the other, yet they have commonality, which can have meaning in some situations.

so
"what is the meaning of life"
there are oceans of association with "life" the word, life the idea, life the process, life the science, my life, your life, their lives.
There are reams of declarations from thinkers, theologians, mystics, and politicians specifying their ideas of a meaning in life and a purpose to life that fits in their kookie cosmologies.

And that is the crux of this thinking, cosmology, and this usually is mystic, or conjectural or reasonably incomplete and open if it is scientific.

Good luck with your thinking




Sure, there is always a plurality of meanings. But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?" We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe. A wider universe which according to science has no values, which is why we continue to ask the question. We want an answer to this question that makes us feel valuable, eternal, and the modern cultural milieu cannot offer us one, so we are stuck in a thought loop.

Your using clever semantics to obfuscate the obvious. But through your obfuscation you point to the very problem you wish to ignore.

The plurality of meanings is part of the problem. If my story about how I am valuable to the universe, eternal, is true, than how can that other strange fellows story also be true? Are all the stories true or just mine? Coming into contact with the plurality of stories we tell ourselves about our meaningfulness degrades each and every one of them. This is why we are stuck in a postmodern existential dilemma where we cannot ground ourselves in any sort of truth claim. Science try's to become a monolith of truth claims, and it works to a certain degree, but science won't offer us what we really want, to be valuable members of a meaningful universe.

Again, it never used to be this way. Before the enlightenment most people could rely on their communal systems of redemption. But through contact with exotic others we have come into this plurality of meaning which calls into question the meaning of life.




My approach is not a semantic one, but yours does suffer semantic flaws that you insist upon justifying based upon "time honored pursuits" (this is a common "forefather flaw" in which the proponent of a failing idea delegates the argument to "the wisdom of the ancients").

Just because the "meaning of life" question has surfaced in the past, you are giving it validity that it really does not deserve, and you are ascribing it importance that people have also given to:
1. god
2. death anxiety
3. re-incarnation
4. true love

Many pre-enlightenment concepts are just that. We can and should move beyond pre-enlightenment.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #24010119 - 01/14/17 03:46 PM (7 years, 16 days ago)

Next step to pre enlightenment would be taking a handful of mushrooms on a dark night in the middle of the woods and finding out that only you save you and after everything passes it will still be you-niverse


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24011454 - 01/15/17 08:06 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Green7Alchemist said:
Next step to pre enlightenment would be taking a handful of mushrooms on a dark night in the middle of the woods and finding out that only you save you and after everything passes it will still be you-niverse



QFT


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTwitwatSpackle
Stranger
Registered: 01/15/17
Posts: 10
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #24011627 - 01/15/17 09:40 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

New Romanticism is pretty dope.  It's the triumph of man over nihilism.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: TwitwatSpackle]
    #24012834 - 01/15/17 06:44 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

anti-philosophy is undoubtedly the only place to go in a society where the people have the maturity of teeny-boppers.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24012989 - 01/15/17 07:51 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I do not see how I am obfuscating
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

OK, you are mixing the container for the content.
naturally if you try to put your bowl into the applesauce, you will come out with something messy, but if you put the apple sauce into the bowl, you can eat it and share it without any mess.

Meaning has to do with what is associated, even the term implied means it is associated in memory as a thing that is followed by another thing.

In this way things have meaning. They connect to other things in meaning.

but we can use the word to confuse ourselves - for example
"meaningful relationship"
what does it imply, what does it mean?
well, it suggests a plurality of meanings, since it is full of meaning, or a plurality of associations.
Some may take it to be common interests, or common history, or other things in common, or shared ownership, shared work, etc. Similarities also create and enhance association or meaning without necessarily having causal impact.

so a pen and a knife are both tools, both longish, both fit in pocket (maybe), but one does not imply the other, yet they have commonality, which can have meaning in some situations.

so
"what is the meaning of life"
there are oceans of association with "life" the word, life the idea, life the process, life the science, my life, your life, their lives.
There are reams of declarations from thinkers, theologians, mystics, and politicians specifying their ideas of a meaning in life and a purpose to life that fits in their kookie cosmologies.

And that is the crux of this thinking, cosmology, and this usually is mystic, or conjectural or reasonably incomplete and open if it is scientific.

Good luck with your thinking




Sure, there is always a plurality of meanings. But we all know what someone means when they ask "What is the meaning of life?" We know they are trying to find a way to value their existence in the wider universe. A wider universe which according to science has no values, which is why we continue to ask the question. We want an answer to this question that makes us feel valuable, eternal, and the modern cultural milieu cannot offer us one, so we are stuck in a thought loop.

Your using clever semantics to obfuscate the obvious. But through your obfuscation you point to the very problem you wish to ignore.

The plurality of meanings is part of the problem. If my story about how I am valuable to the universe, eternal, is true, than how can that other strange fellows story also be true? Are all the stories true or just mine? Coming into contact with the plurality of stories we tell ourselves about our meaningfulness degrades each and every one of them. This is why we are stuck in a postmodern existential dilemma where we cannot ground ourselves in any sort of truth claim. Science try's to become a monolith of truth claims, and it works to a certain degree, but science won't offer us what we really want, to be valuable members of a meaningful universe.

Again, it never used to be this way. Before the enlightenment most people could rely on their communal systems of redemption. But through contact with exotic others we have come into this plurality of meaning which calls into question the meaning of life.




My approach is not a semantic one, but yours does suffer semantic flaws that you insist upon justifying based upon "time honored pursuits" (this is a common "forefather flaw" in which the proponent of a failing idea delegates the argument to "the wisdom of the ancients").

Just because the "meaning of life" question has surfaced in the past, you are giving it validity that it really does not deserve, and you are ascribing it importance that people have also given to:
1. god
2. death anxiety
3. re-incarnation
4. true love

Many pre-enlightenment concepts are just that. We can and should move beyond pre-enlightenment.




I never said that we should return to pre-enlightenment beliefs, even if that was possible, which I don't think it is, it would not be desirable. All I'm arguing for is that we admit what we have lost, not that we should return to some golden age which we all know was never that great anyway. We have made advances economically and morally that cannot be understated, but spiritually we are in decline. This is much more nuanced argument than your rendering.

Also, my claim is not that "the "meaning of life" question has surfaced in the past" My claim is the exact opposite: that this question was not ever really conceptualised the way it is today in pre enlightenment cultures. You need to read more carefully and then address the arguments as they are actually presented.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: TwitwatSpackle]
    #24012995 - 01/15/17 07:53 PM (7 years, 15 days ago)

What is "new romanticism"?


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletHEfLY
Stranger
Registered: 04/16/16
Posts: 427
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24013611 - 01/16/17 01:32 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

I've been thinking about the same questions OP. Came across this essay recently, you might appreciate it:

TS Eliot - "After Strange Gods: A Primer of Modern Heresy"

Quote:

Tradition is not solely, or even primarily, the mainten-
ance of certain dogmatic beliefs; these beliefs have come
to take their living form in the course of the formation of a
^ tradition. What I mean by tradition involves all those
habitual actions, habits and customs, from the most signifi-
cant religious rite to our conventional way of greeting a
stranger, which represent the blood kinship of 'the same
people living in the same place'. It involves a good deal
which can be called taboo: that this word is used in our time
in an exclusively derogatory sense is to me a curiosity
of some significance. We become conscious of these
items, or conscious of their importance, usually only after
they have begun to fall into desuetude, as we are aware of
the leaves of a tree when the autumn wind begins to blow
them off when they have separately ceased to be vital.'
Energy may be wasted at that point in a frantic endeavour
to collect the leaves as they fall and gum them onto the
branches: but the sound tree will put forth new leaves, and
the dry tree should be put to the axe. We are always in
^danger, in clinging to an old tradition, or attempting to
re-establish one, of confusing the vital and the unessential,
the real and the sentimental. Our second danger is to asso-
ciate tradition with the immovable; to think of it as
something hostile to all change; to aim to return to some
previous condition which we imagine as having been
capable of preservation in perpetuity, instead of aiming -
to stimulate the life which produced that condition in
its time.




...

Quote:

I hold in summing up that a tradition is rather a way of
feeling and acting which characterises a group throughout
generations; and that it must largely be, or that many of
the elements in it must be, unconscious; whereas the main-
tenance of orthodoxy is a matter which calls for the exercise
of all our conscious intelligence. The two will therefore
considerably complement each other. Not only is it poss-
ible to conceive of a tradition being definitely bad; a good
tradition might, in changing circumstances, become out of
date. Tradition has not the means to criticise itself; it may
perpetuate much that is trivial or of transient significance
as well as what is vital and permanent. And while tra-
dition, being a matter of good habits, is necessarily real
only in a social group, orthodoxy exists whether realised in
anyone's thought or not. Orthodoxy also, of course repre-
sents a consensus between the living and the dead: but a
whole generation might conceivably pass without any
orthodox thought; or, as by Athanasius, orthodoxy may
\ be upheld by one man against the world. Tradition may be
conceived as a by-product of right living, not to be aimed
at directly. It is of the blood, so to speak, rather than of the
brain: it is the means by which the vitality of the past en-
riches the life of the present. In the co-operation of both is
the reconciliation of thought and feeling.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24013669 - 01/16/17 02:22 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

He's kind of dancing around the stuff I'm talking about, but it is insightful. The gnostic turn that I'm speaking of is a turn away from orthodoxy as it becomes outdated as Elliot describes. But to be unorthodox creates its own problems. I think that eventually this new found gnosticism will find an orthodoxy, or multiple orthodoxies, and this will be a new global religion. We can see the seeds of this in modern environmentalism and its quasi-religious ethic. Eventually the new age movement will become institutionalised into a global orthodoxy. That's my prediction for the future of religion for what its worth.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24013672 - 01/16/17 02:24 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
He's kind of dancing around the stuff I'm talking about, but it is insightful. The gnostic turn that I'm speaking of is a turn away from orthodoxy as it becomes outdated as Elliot describes. But to be unorthodox creates its own problems. I think that eventually this new found gnosticism will find an orthodoxy, or multiple orthodoxies, and this will be a new global religion. We can see the seeds of this in modern environmentalism and its quasi-religious ethic. Eventually the new age movement will become institutionalised into a global orthodoxy. That's my prediction for the future of religion for what its worth.




not if the christians spread their dogma anymore radically than they are these days.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24013680 - 01/16/17 02:28 AM (7 years, 15 days ago)

Christianity has mostly gone into disrepute, (hence Christian fundamentalism) which is why the new age and atheism grows. If your worried about radical dogmatics you should shift your attention to Islam.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletHEfLY
Stranger
Registered: 04/16/16
Posts: 427
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24013713 - 01/16/17 03:00 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Yeah Islam still has that sense of metaphysical objectivity that we're talking about, which gives it exactly the kind of strength and vitality that the West has lost. Modern people, even the Christians, tend largely toward relativism and uncertainty. Right or wrong, belief is a powerful force in the world.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24013727 - 01/16/17 03:20 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

The choice to be a Christian is exactly that, a choice among many choices. In the Islamic world there really isn't much choice. Your either my brand of muslim or your essentially not human. Its kind of hard for us to understand now but Christianity used to be like that.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24013754 - 01/16/17 03:55 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Christianity has mostly gone into disrepute, (hence Christian fundamentalism) which is why the new age and atheism grows. If your worried about radical dogmatics you should shift your attention to Islam.



no. i'm gonna focus on both.

you don't think christians can see the ailing christianity? you don't hear enough about how oppressed they are, how much the US is a christian nation, and how demonic everyone else is, and how they paint those around them as evil demons for not being "normal", and the rise in christian political activism, you haven't heard enough of that to be convinced? ok.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletHEfLY
Stranger
Registered: 04/16/16
Posts: 427
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24013761 - 01/16/17 04:14 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
The choice to be a Christian is exactly that, a choice among many choices. In the Islamic world there really isn't much choice. Your either my brand of muslim or your essentially not human. Its kind of hard for us to understand now but Christianity used to be like that.




Well, everything is a choice now. Parents are starting to ask their children to decide what gender they want to be. I don't want to derail this into a transgender thing because I've got nothing against them as individuals, but it's all part of a larger experiment in social destratification and nobody seems to be thinking about what the implications could be when the previously given structures are gone and every possible form of identity becomes elective and therefore essentially groundless. It's presented as freedom, but too much freedom = oblivion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24013786 - 01/16/17 04:59 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

tHEfLY said:

Well, everything is a choice now. Parents are starting to ask their children to decide what gender they want to be. I don't want to derail this into a transgender thing because I've got nothing against them as individuals, but it's all part of a larger experiment in social destratification and nobody seems to be thinking about what the implications could be when the previously given structures are gone and every possible form of identity becomes elective and therefore essentially groundless. It's presented as freedom, but too much freedom = oblivion.




Most people in the world, in terms of their core belief systems, are what they are because of where they were born and their parents.  If you're born in Saudi Arabia, there's a good chance you're a fundamentalist Muslim.  Born in Tibet?  Probably a Buddhist.  Born in Colombia?  Almost certainly a Christian ... Born to parents that teach science at Harvard?  You're probably an atheist ... and  so on.

That is the primary determining factor.  Access to education and travel can have a big impact, over time in changing that. 

Religion is not freedom, it's an obedience system for the masses to make them far easier to rule and more compliant to serve the wealth classes.  Praying to a God you can't see and taking your direction from a Priest Class that lives off the "generosity" of believers is an inherently corrupt system.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24013813 - 01/16/17 06:00 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

I see an endless chain of leader worship in all religions, and it is not pretty.

Charisma and people skills are core to all ideas of a good life, or a good way of living.

All the Messiahs, Ayatolla's, Popes, Guru's and Buddha's etc. have developed charisma, & can teach how to do charisma, but the organizations that form around them, like magnetized iron filings, are mostly terrible. These guys don't know how to run a kindergarten, so orthodoxy is usually characterized by extreme traditionalism and lack of accountability among members who defer to the "wisdom" of the messiah.

Each person should be their own Ayatolla, or Buddha and that's that.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibletHEfLY
Stranger
Registered: 04/16/16
Posts: 427
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24013854 - 01/16/17 06:51 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Religion is not freedom, it's an obedience system for the masses to make them far easier to rule and more compliant to serve the wealth classes.  Praying to a God you can't see and taking your direction from a Priest Class that lives off the "generosity" of believers is an inherently corrupt system.




I never said religion was freedom. Religion can restrict some freedoms, but that's not always a bad thing. It's better than formless anarchy.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Each person should be their own Ayatolla, or Buddha and that's that.




How many people are capable of that? Not many, and anyway values need to be shared because that is the basis of community and any society that tries to exist without reference to a higher order is bound to fail. People need to speak the same language, each man for himself is a disaster.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24014006 - 01/16/17 08:25 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

tHEfLY said:

I never said religion was freedom. Religion can restrict some freedoms, but that's not always a bad thing. It's better than formless anarchy.





Absence of religion does not mean, in 2017, the absence of laws that protect us from violence, chaos and predatory individuals.  We are quite capable of passing and enforcing laws that prevent violence and theft and protect personal property.  We have a NATURAL desire for that kind of order and religion simply incorporates that natural tendency.  It isn't that religion creates it. 

Religion, by enforcing conformity, often has used violence and theft to expand.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY] * 1
    #24014012 - 01/16/17 08:29 AM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

tHEfLY said:

How many people are capable of that? Not many, and anyway values need to be shared because that is the basis of community and any society that tries to exist without reference to a higher order is bound to fail. People need to speak the same language, each man for himself is a disaster.




Joseph Campbell wrote about this with great insight and depth.  His conclusions were that our myths have not kept up with our technology and change and secondly, that man, over time, has a tendency to confuse metaphor with fact.

We are naturally attracted to tribes or groups for a wide variety of safety and social reasons.  Those groups make rules. 

First and foremost, religion benefits the PRIEST CLASSES as it is a system for extracting donations and taxes from followers in exchange for preferential treatment in the after life which is one hell of a sketchy offer, if you ask me.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDuncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 2,659
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24014702 - 01/16/17 01:13 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

tHEfLY said:
How many people are capable of that? Not many, and anyway values need to be shared because that is the basis of community and any society that tries to exist without reference to a higher order is bound to fail. People need to speak the same language, each man for himself is a disaster.




:thumbup:

No-one who understands Christ or Buddha would ever want the condition to be otherwise.

Hence, a lot of people who are battling against it, just haven't found it, because they are too busy battling.

Independent ground is the egos dream.


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (01/16/17 01:50 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24014948 - 01/16/17 02:50 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
The choice to be a Christian is exactly that, a choice among many choices. In the Islamic world there really isn't much choice. Your either my brand of muslim or your essentially not human. Its kind of hard for us to understand now but Christianity used to be like that.



It's just all about the appreciation of g*d. However the religion about that is called and how it presents itself is just a dizzle dazzle down the drain by human folklore. Not meant in a negative way.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #24014973 - 01/16/17 02:59 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

getting to end of God's, to just the singular, is ... a great way to get to the bottom of language.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #24014992 - 01/16/17 03:04 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

I think both tHEfLY and KauaiOrca have legitimate points. We have advanced economically, technologically and morally in ways that would have been unimaginable just 100 years ago. But why have these advances left us with a feeling of emptiness, like none of it really matters anyway? I think it is because in order to make these advances we gave up some of what made life worth living, at least for our ancestors. A real connection to the universe, to a Devine creator and a the grounding of our being in creation itself.

I think tHEfLY was right when he said "Religion can restrict some freedoms, but that's not always a bad thing. It's better than formless anarchy." Formless anarchy is where we are headed, which is why I think eventually we will have a new global religion that pulls in other traditions from around the world.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24015026 - 01/16/17 03:17 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24015045 - 01/16/17 03:26 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Formless anarchy! - gimme a break!

The alternative to being corralled into sameness is not formless anarchy.


Most of everything we do and know is magic, including just putting our feet up and browsing the internet. Try to understand how that happens. (I know sudly will want to post the same pics - but that is not the what I mean here: How does a person actually sit well on the couch and lift their feet on to a foot rest in one smooth move while swinging their laptop to browse the net.) Even the most advanced neuroscientist will not be able to draw all the pathways, nor correctly assign the function of each part of the brain and body for this to happen. We who do it take it for granted. But the simplest thing we can do is still magic.

If we learn to open our eyes, everything is magical, or sacred, or blessed; but I do not think that experience confirms me to being a member of any church or congregation.

I prefer to avoid all religious figures because of how people around them act like sheep: acolytes, and drones.

At best places of orthodoxy are where people behave like they are already in hell  (or kindergarten), but are at least the attendees wear nice clothing.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24015058 - 01/16/17 03:29 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Christianity has mostly gone into disrepute, (hence Christian fundamentalism) which is why the new age and atheism grows. If your worried about radical dogmatics you should shift your attention to Islam.



no. i'm gonna focus on both.

you don't think christians can see the ailing christianity? you don't hear enough about how oppressed they are, how much the US is a christian nation, and how demonic everyone else is, and how they paint those around them as evil demons for not being "normal", and the rise in christian political activism, you haven't heard enough of that to be convinced? ok.




Perhaps in the corner of the world that you live in  there is a resurgence of christianity, but for the majority of the west christianity is in disrepute. The only places its making ground are africa and parts of latin america and india, but once they make the moral and economic advances the west has made I see christianity going into disrepute there too.

I've not been to the US so I cannot speak from experience, but my studies have shown that the christianity being practiced in the west, the US included, is a neutered religion compared with say middle age england. christianity is no longer built into the fabric of society the way that it once was. So even of the self reported numbers go up in any given area it is safe to say that we are still less christian than we once were.

I think what you are hearing are the death throws of a dyeing religion that you have mistaken for vitality.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24015068 - 01/16/17 03:31 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

i am hearing the possible resurgence of it. i never turn my back on the frantic fits of self-preservation.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24015073 - 01/16/17 03:33 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Formless anarchy! - gimme a break!

The alternative to being corralled into sameness is not formless anarchy.


Most of everything we do and know is magic, including just putting our feet up and browsing the internet. Try to understand how that happens. (I know sudly will want to post the same pics - but that is not the what I mean here: How does a person actually sit well on the couch and lift their feet on to a foot rest in one smooth move while swinging their laptop to browse the net.) Even the most advanced neuroscientist will not be able to draw all the pathways, nor correctly assign the function of each part of the brain and body for this to happen. We who do it take it for granted. But the simplest thing we can do is still magic.

If we learn to open our eyes, everything is magical, or sacred, or blessed; but I do not think that experience confirms me to being a member of any church or congregation.

I prefer to avoid all religious figures because of how people around them act like sheep: acolytes, and drones.

At best places of orthodoxy are where people behave like they are already in hell  (or kindergarten), but are at least the attendees wear nice clothing.




True, but its not really the same is it. The magic we feel is the magic of amazement at humanities creativity, which will eventually be snuffed out by an expanding sun. This is much different from say the magic of the eucharist which grants humanity salvation. We feel a kind of formless anarchy because our magic no longer correlates with the meaning of existence as we wish it to be.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24015077 - 01/16/17 03:34 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

I'm not convinced at all that people, in general, found more or less meaning in their lives years ago than they are today.  I think life was harder in the past with more work and a lot less time for entertainment and distraction. 

Sure, there were groups that had a very active spiritual orientation like the HOPI for instance or tribes in Australia... But did the Romans find more meaning than we do?  Did peasants who worked from the moment they awoke till the fell asleep find more meaning because of an oppressive church and priest class that ran the church in the town plaza?

I think there is a tendency we have to attribute things to the past that may or may not have occurred.

Personally, I find more meaning in my life now than I did 25 years ago when I spent less time with technology gizmos. 

Religion, in the past, was a lot more like government than it was an inspiring experience for the masses.  It was suppressive, brutally violent and unforgiving with non-believers.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24015078 - 01/16/17 03:34 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

They have lost so much ground that it is hard to see them wining it back :shrug:


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24015090 - 01/16/17 03:37 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade places with some feudal peasant. But there was definitely a certain quality to their lives that we have lost. No matter how bad this life was, the next life is going to be glorious. Most of us can no longer say that. So we have lost that small bit of comfort. That's all I'm saying.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24015097 - 01/16/17 03:39 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade places with some feudal peasant. But there was definitely a certain quality to their lives that we have lost. No matter how bad this life was, the next life is going to be glorious. Most of us can no longer say that. So we have lost that small bit of comfort. That's all I'm saying.




So delusion about the afterlife gave them more meaning?  Is that your point?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24015100 - 01/16/17 03:40 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
They have lost so much ground that it is hard to see them wining it back :shrug:



i don't see it to be that hard. :shrug:

all they need to do is get the right guy in...essentially. i don't care about them "taking over" or anything...but i can see the resurgence of it, and it's not going to be pretty, nor is it, even at this stage. but that's bad enough. you say dying throes...i say, "watch the fucking sideshow", cause they ain't dead yet.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24015102 - 01/16/17 03:41 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:


So delusion about the afterlife gave them more meaning?  Is that your point?



it is the illusions we give our children.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24015115 - 01/16/17 03:43 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:


So delusion about the afterlife gave them more meaning?  Is that your point?



it is the illusions we give our children.




Promises, in an institutional way, of afterlife "riches" are, I believe, were an invention of the Romans to unify an empire and create a more obedient society that would go to war and make the sacrifices necessary in the name of Rome.  Their hijacking of Christianity to meld their far flung pagan territories into a more obedient populace was brilliant but it definitely left a lasting mark on our species.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24015153 - 01/16/17 03:57 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

and the Hebrews invented the concept of proliferating to increase the numbers in the fold, for war, for their God, whom they'd be risen by in the afterlife, after all time, save those who sin.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24015159 - 01/16/17 03:59 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
and the Hebrews invented the concept of proliferating to increase the numbers in the fold, for war, for their God, whom they'd be risen by in the afterlife, after all time, save those who sin.




The Jewish concept of the afterlife was nowhere near as developed or attractive as the Christians.  Heaven and hell, actually, get very little attention in the Torah or Old Testament ... Heaven, in the modern sense, is much more a creation of the Christian era than the Hebrews.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24015164 - 01/16/17 04:01 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

that's pretty convoluted, you sure you got that right? - any references?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24015173 - 01/16/17 04:06 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
and the Hebrews invented the concept of proliferating to increase the numbers in the fold, for war, for their God, whom they'd be risen by in the afterlife, after all time, save those who sin.




The Jewish concept of the afterlife was nowhere near as developed or attractive as the Christians.  Heaven and hell, actually, get very little attention in the Torah or Old Testament ... Heaven, in the modern sense, is much more a creation of the Christian era than the Hebrews.



yeah, i know, Sheol is basically another word for grave. it's just the fact of sitting in that dark place forever, that stay in the grave, that's basically Sheol.

until you are exhumed through Yahweh's great power.
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that's pretty convoluted, you sure you got that right? - any references?



i think the Bible makes it clear enough, doesn't it? :blush:

you mean the "sin" part?

i mean, in the Hebrew they have more than one word that would translate into "sin". "sin" in this context, would be the later word for these type of "errors"; which is what it boils down to, essentially, sin = error. but in the Hebrew they have words for many different contexts of this type of "error" to God.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24015191 - 01/16/17 04:13 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that's pretty convoluted, you sure you got that right? - any references?




The bible?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24015225 - 01/16/17 04:25 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

oh, new testament, riiight.
never mind


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #24015226 - 01/16/17 04:26 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

PS: i will add that these things seem to be natural causes to illusory reality. but it's not exactly why we do these things.

why we do these things is alot more simple...and it's not because of death. i think there is a step above death.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24015245 - 01/16/17 04:32 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

is that in the new testament too?
I guess you guys are already Orthodox.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24015251 - 01/16/17 04:35 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

listen, cease trying to stop-correct the flow into the depths of incision through the integument of the truth of the matter of the lies, redgreenvines, you can't deny, it's in your mind, and it's automatic, and you're human potential is inconsequential, no matter how hard you want to create waves, your erromatic grave.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #24015288 - 01/16/17 04:55 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade places with some feudal peasant. But there was definitely a certain quality to their lives that we have lost. No matter how bad this life was, the next life is going to be glorious. Most of us can no longer say that. So we have lost that small bit of comfort. That's all I'm saying.




So delusion about the afterlife gave them more meaning?  Is that your point?




The delusion of the afterlife is just one way that people have created a meaningful connection to the cosmos. Its hard for an atheist to understand. When christians say that life would be meaningless without God I think they are partly correct. But many of us can no longer believe in God, so we just denigrate the christian view because we don't want to admit what was lost.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24015304 - 01/16/17 05:02 PM (7 years, 14 days ago)

this is true, by the way, as i said, the illusion of our children...literally.

you're not out of the christian age yet...we still have baggage...and yes...it tied us to the cosmos...now everything is....







un-life.

it's duplicitous and things seem jarred.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #24020043 - 01/18/17 01:45 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:

No-one who understands Christ or Buddha would ever want the condition to be otherwise.

Hence, a lot of people who are battling against it, just haven't found it, because they are too busy battling.

Independent ground is the egos dream.




Dependency is also the ego's dream.

Many choose to believe in a higher power rather than believe in themselves.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 18 hours, 41 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #24020062 - 01/18/17 01:50 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:

The delusion of the afterlife is just one way that people have created a meaningful connection to the cosmos. Its hard for an atheist to understand.




What's challenging for some atheists to understand is why eternal life is the prerequisite for a "meaningful connection to the cosmos"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24020093 - 01/18/17 02:00 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
this is true, by the way, as i said, the illusion of our children...literally.

you're not out of the christian age yet...we still have baggage...and yes...it tied us to the cosmos...now everything is....







un-life.

it's duplicitous and things seem jarred.




i understand many of you might not be native american, but i am  so when i say we i speak of my people,
when we ruled the western hemisphere we did so with peace, yes there was war, but we were not savages, in fact the reason why they claimed us to be savages is because we left behind little to no written history in some cultures,
this i firmly believe is because we were story-tellers and we engraved the message of hope, courage etc. into the hearts of our children, it was not something that they had to go to school or the church to learn, rather the community and the earth was the school and experiences were lessons.
this is what life is about learning from the earth, observing nature, this is lost in translation with the books, which are good and i love but pointless when talking about real life scenarios,
i dont see religion helping us moving forward, it will have to be like it was back then a personal understanding.


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24020292 - 01/18/17 02:59 PM (7 years, 12 days ago)

the transference of knowledge and creativity can be said to be more "hands-on" than people will usually give it credit for.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24023715 - 01/19/17 06:28 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the transference of knowledge and creativity can be said to be more "hands-on" than people will usually give it credit for.




knowledge is not something that can be bought nor sold, now many ppl like to say they woke asf and yea they may be knowledgable read a couple of books maybe even dabbled in entheogens or fb thumbers  :shakefist: 

knowledge its a practice, a commitment, a discipline, character, charisma, humbleness, wise, intuition, contagious, its (life) many things but one it is not is intelligence  :gaycrankey:

knowing shit from shinola


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24023989 - 01/19/17 07:52 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the transference of knowledge and creativity can be said to be more "hands-on" than people will usually give it credit for.



Still interested in the word "erromatic", but this seems to suggest that you have been or would be conferred with creative knowledge or something like that.
I am sure that from an excellent teacher some charm can rub off, but creativity is very personal; it is not transferred. you make it and find it yourself.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24024011 - 01/19/17 08:01 PM (7 years, 11 days ago)

people just lump around like a gaggle of morons to talk nonsense & idiocy. who cares if they can understand shit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Budhism rather than christianity? mshrmmitch 1,236 13 10/22/04 07:37 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Some Christians and the Atheist
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Swami 14,260 119 07/31/02 07:19 AM
by Sclorch
* Christianity for kids. Lightningfractal 2,242 18 10/29/03 09:29 AM
by seraphim
* Gnosticism & Gnostic Gospels
( 1 2 3 all )
Alan Stone 6,928 44 04/21/08 12:06 PM
by blewmeanie
* Gnostic Trinities Zahid 479 5 09/05/03 06:45 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Christianity and its Msygonic Patriarch. DigitalDuality 1,063 2 05/01/04 07:13 AM
by Anonymous
* Christianity
( 1 2 3 all )
Digs 6,269 49 07/12/03 06:44 AM
by nubious
* Reincarnation and Christianity
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Jellric 7,551 63 12/04/04 05:31 PM
by Fucknuckle

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,859 topic views. 1 members, 18 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.076 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 14 queries.