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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society
    #23985167 - 01/05/17 08:59 PM (7 years, 25 days ago)

Some ideas that I've been grappling with lately are the rise of individualism and secularism, and its effects on our conception of our place in the universe.

We used to live in a universe that was made specifically for us by an omnipotent creator God, it was quite small in some respects, only 4000 years old, only ourselves, some demons, a hirachy of angels and God. Before the christian era it was even smaller.

Now we live in a vast and ever expanding universe, largely hostile to life and with nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto. The universe appears as a vast emptiness to us, not because it is in fact empty, but because we are unable to imagine ourselves as being important in this vast universe.

I think this has resulted in what I call a turn to gnosticism, or individualist religious attitudes; because without a meaningful universe we must find meaning within. The modern interest with psychology is a symptom of this, as is our culture of self-help and of course many new age spiritualities which often have a very inward looking and individualist bent. The modern fascination with orientalism and particularly buddhism also falls into this category.

What do you guys think? In what ways do you think the modern scientific explanation of the universe alienates us from meaningfulness and what effects do you think this has on the modern mind/soul/dharma/whatever?

I know there are some atheists out here that will immediately point out that the world can be meaningful without an ultimate redemptive force of God or whatever you want to call it. I'm open to believing that is true, but its not exactly the same is it? Its not like when you stop believing in santa clause, that the santa clause sized hole in your heart is filled with something that exactly fits his joyous contours.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23985772 - 01/06/17 04:08 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

oi!



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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23985797 - 01/06/17 04:33 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
... Its not like when you stop believing in santa clause, that the santa clause sized hole in your heart is filled with something that exactly fits his joyous contours...



emptiness can be so precious


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23985807 - 01/06/17 04:48 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

"Sometimes you lose something and you get something better."




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
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Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 14 hours
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23985839 - 01/06/17 05:54 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
What do you guys think? In what ways do you think the modern scientific explanation of the universe alienates us




Perhaps indeed science "kills" spirit by pinning it down.
ref: The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. (2 Cor. 3:6)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #23985894 - 01/06/17 07:29 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

To the extent that the language of science exceeds the comprehension of those without scientific education, the general population is excluded from science, though this is to a much lesser extent than the exclusions by clergy to the faithful of any meaningful knowledge and history.

At least with science, the limits to knowledge are admitted, and claims are not made which are contrary to what is observable when using the repeatable methods.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23985912 - 01/06/17 07:46 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

The uninitiated is at a loss in either field.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #23985930 - 01/06/17 08:01 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

you can initiate yourself with science and books or internet
and you probably wont be sexually abused in the process


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23985944 - 01/06/17 08:10 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Is it 'unscientific' to take the strap to the perpetrator, in your opinion?

Of course not and we yield to the 'strap' wielded by authority.

Pain then is undoubtedly a scientific remedy for misconduct, and we yield to the authority that wields it, while not claiming to be an authority ourselves because we have no authority to wield the strap.

As scientists, in this thread, we may not concur on the identity of the authority that discerns the applicable remedy for each individual in each situation, but given that remedies are not all inclusive across the board we might think that the remedy can be tailored to the individual, allowing then for a variety of measurable effects within a sample. Indeed to show an undeniable effect across-the-board we would have to gather together, as a sample, a group sharing specific characteristics, which perhaps is a scientific basis for predestination based on the characteristic of an individual.

This hypothesis accounts for abuses of any kind.; Can you disprove it?


Edited by Buster_Brown (01/06/17 10:35 AM)


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
Draco
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23986203 - 01/06/17 10:30 AM (7 years, 24 days ago)

i agree with you maybe it is not the universe that is empty but our understanding of it,

i think to first find that which we look for out there we must first find it in here.

on the other hand we have disconnected ourselves far from natural law, we do not have guidance in the sky's of our cities.

we are so far removed from life this i think has numbed people to the idea of a higher power, why pray to the sun when wal-mart has mango's year round?


--------------------
Trip 7
THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE
streets disciple
CHRIST IS KING.

Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #23986761 - 01/06/17 02:59 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Exactly, the stars used to tell the story of humanities cosmic meaningfulness. Now we have a vast expanding emptiness. Your point about food and the modern economy  is also on point. Fruit is from a niave perspective a kind of miracle. It's like bottled sunshine, but it somehow loses its shine when we see it as a product of modern economic systems.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #23986783 - 01/06/17 03:06 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
What do you guys think? In what ways do you think the modern scientific explanation of the universe alienates us




Perhaps indeed science "kills" spirit by pinning it down.
ref: The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. (2 Cor. 3:6)




In reference to the above post, didn't Jesus say something like "man cannot live on bread alone" He appears to have known that food without a higher connection leaves us empty.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23986791 - 01/06/17 03:09 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
To the extent that the language of science exceeds the comprehension of those without scientific education, the general population is excluded from science, though this is to a much lesser extent than the exclusions by clergy to the faithful of any meaningful knowledge and history.

At least with science, the limits to knowledge are admitted, and claims are not made which are contrary to what is observable when using the repeatable methods.




The average person in the west knows enough about science too derive values from their perhaps limited knowledge.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
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Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
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Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 2
    #23986912 - 01/06/17 03:54 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Science is cool. The physicalist dogma that comes with it is not cool, and is why people who have seek ultimate answers are looking for something beyond science.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23987661 - 01/06/17 08:16 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Yeah, but everything "beyond science" seems to be equally, if not more, dogmatic and also inconsistent with rationality. This is why we hear so much "woo-woo" from the new agers. You have to ignore some of the facts of science, disregard rationality and look within your own subjective mindscape to create a meaningful existence these days. I don't think it used to be like that. God, or the ultimate force of the universe, the spirits, whatever, were objects in the real world in a way which the majority in the west can no longer support.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
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Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
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Last seen: 1 hour, 16 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23987724 - 01/06/17 08:45 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Hmm well people do have personal spiritual experiences which demonstrate to them that there is more than the current physicalist models allow for. And not just experiences on drugs, but also in meditation, or other states of being. I think it is very premature to declare that the current scientific models disprove and exclude any room for the spiritual without someone being irrational. A lot of what passes as rationality is simply following the same grooves of thought that create the current models - after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: deff]
    #23987778 - 01/06/17 09:00 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: deff]
    #23987866 - 01/06/17 09:34 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Hmm well people do have personal spiritual experiences which demonstrate to them that there is more than the current physicalist models allow for. And not just experiences on drugs, but also in meditation, or other states of being. I think it is very premature to declare that the current scientific models disprove and exclude any room for the spiritual without someone being irrational. A lot of what passes as rationality is simply following the same grooves of thought that create the current models - after all what is the rational evidence that our rationality is rational? :smile:




Yeah there is nothing you can say to convince someone that rationality is valuable. My belief is that when we take into account the facts science has presented us about the universe we inhabit it is rational to assume that we are very small and in the grand scheme of the universe, very insignificant things, and this is hard to stomach, which is why people fear rationality and the facts which science have presented us with. So we turn inward to a kind of new age gnosticism to ground the meaning of our lives.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23987905 - 01/06/17 09:52 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

I like to think we live in a heaven on Earth in a hell that is the universe.

For me it's a perspective I can look to for gratitude and appreciation that I have a chance to live in such a beautiful world in such a hostile universe.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
Male

Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA Flag
Last seen: 15 hours, 25 minutes
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23987925 - 01/06/17 10:02 PM (7 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:

Now we live in a vast and ever expanding universe, largely hostile to life and with nothing we can peg the meaning of our lives onto.




I wonder why we might consider the universe "hostile" to life.

Each moment of our life, thousands of biological processes work to keep us alive.

When life doesn't conform to our expectations, should we curse it?

Our so called "search for meaning" is the road to Hell.


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