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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23990006 - 01/07/17 04:14 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

it's always contextual
it's always about context(s)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23990719 - 01/07/17 08:00 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
You're worried about the earth burning up in 4 billion years? The point isn't to rejoice the earths demise but to rejoice the life you'll have before that happens.

Meanings aren't inherent so I don't agree there are multiple levels of it.




What you are endorsing is essentially hedonism, and like meditation, it can be used to forget ones problems, but it still feels pretty empty I think. There is only so much forgetting that one can do before their problems catch up to them.

People like to believe that their actions have some staying power, that they are making a difference, a contribution to the world. History erases everything and time will eat away at our most cherished accomplishments. Without some ultimate redemptive force most people find the this pretty disheartening. Religion used to give us the ultimate staying power, immortality. But it is getting increasingly difficult to believe in such things.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23990800 - 01/07/17 08:22 PM (7 years, 23 days ago)

Hedonism doesn't sound so bad.

Quote:

Hedonism(in philosophy): the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.




Though I understand that issues would arise when one has desires to harm other human beings.

What we do as individuals probably won't contribute anything to the world as a whole but we can certainly contribute to ourselves, our friends and our families.

Then appreciate things while they are there, 'Cus diamonds they fade and flowers they bloom.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23992213 - 01/08/17 11:53 AM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

sudly said:
You're worried about the earth burning up in 4 billion years? The point isn't to rejoice the earths demise but to rejoice the life you'll have before that happens.

Meanings aren't inherent so I don't agree there are multiple levels of it.




What you are endorsing is essentially hedonism, and like meditation, it can be used to forget ones problems, but it still feels pretty empty I think. There is only so much forgetting that one can do before their problems catch up to them.

People like to believe that their actions have some staying power, that they are making a difference, a contribution to the world. History erases everything and time will eat away at our most cherished accomplishments. Without some ultimate redemptive force most people find the this pretty disheartening. Religion used to give us the ultimate staying power, immortality. But it is getting increasingly difficult to believe in such things.




The typical view of hedonism for those who frown upon it is that it's a dead end. Perhaps the willingness to satiate ones hedonistic urges can come with unforeseen benefits that broaden ones perspective. I consider myself a hedonist and see it as both an enjoyment and a means to an end.

Hedonism and meditation aren't inherently empty. It's what you make of it, though in contrast to meditation hedonism seems more likely to be revealing while meditation is more of a digestive process and the product of the digestive process. In order for meditation to be useful one must eat first.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23992582 - 01/08/17 02:27 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Hedonism doesn't sound so bad.

Quote:

Hedonism(in philosophy): the ethical theory that pleasure (in the sense of the satisfaction of desires) is the highest good and proper aim of human life.




Though I understand that issues would arise when one has desires to harm other human beings.

What we do as individuals probably won't contribute anything to the world as a whole but we can certainly contribute to ourselves, our friends and our families.

Then appreciate things while they are there, 'Cus diamonds they fade and flowers they bloom.






yeah hedonism despite what some say is not the worst thing in the world, but it is spiritually empty. That's all I'm saying.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Rahz]
    #23992588 - 01/08/17 02:28 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

sudly said:
You're worried about the earth burning up in 4 billion years? The point isn't to rejoice the earths demise but to rejoice the life you'll have before that happens.

Meanings aren't inherent so I don't agree there are multiple levels of it.




What you are endorsing is essentially hedonism, and like meditation, it can be used to forget ones problems, but it still feels pretty empty I think. There is only so much forgetting that one can do before their problems catch up to them.

People like to believe that their actions have some staying power, that they are making a difference, a contribution to the world. History erases everything and time will eat away at our most cherished accomplishments. Without some ultimate redemptive force most people find the this pretty disheartening. Religion used to give us the ultimate staying power, immortality. But it is getting increasingly difficult to believe in such things.




The typical view of hedonism for those who frown upon it is that it's a dead end. Perhaps the willingness to satiate ones hedonistic urges can come with unforeseen benefits that broaden ones perspective. I consider myself a hedonist and see it as both an enjoyment and a means to an end.

Hedonism and meditation aren't inherently empty. It's what you make of it, though in contrast to meditation hedonism seems more likely to be revealing while meditation is more of a digestive process and the product of the digestive process. In order for meditation to be useful one must eat first.




I think they are pretty similar in the sense that they both distract you from the bigger picture, your place in the universe etc. Which is fine if that's what you want to do.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23992651 - 01/08/17 02:54 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

what bigger picture?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23992857 - 01/08/17 03:59 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

The universe and our place in it.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23992950 - 01/08/17 04:26 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

that's a big picture,
hard to focus on it, and even harder to keep it in mind while following a political line of thought
Quote:

blingbling said:
...

This is why a lot of the new age stuff with its emphasis on the environment is misguided. They are just as much apart of the economic-industrial order as anyone else. Their care for the environment is often repackaged and sold back to them at a profit.




Of course selling a political line of thought as a shrink wrapped revelation: "Your Place In the Universe is Here", is not the same as experiencing it directly, which is  what meditation is especially good for, minus political affiliation (not that that is such a bad thing to go without).


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23993229 - 01/08/17 06:15 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
The universe and our place in it.




What is our place in it?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: Rahz]
    #23993469 - 01/08/17 07:24 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
The universe and our place in it.




What is our place in it?




That is for you to decide :cheersyoufuck:


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23993511 - 01/08/17 07:39 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that's a big picture,
hard to focus on it, and even harder to keep it in mind while following a political line of thought
Quote:

blingbling said:
...

This is why a lot of the new age stuff with its emphasis on the environment is misguided. They are just as much apart of the economic-industrial order as anyone else. Their care for the environment is often repackaged and sold back to them at a profit.




Of course selling a political line of thought as a shrink wrapped revelation: "Your Place In the Universe is Here", is not the same as experiencing it directly, which is  what meditation is especially good for, minus political affiliation (not that that is such a bad thing to go without).




You seem to be mixing two somewhat different lines of argumentation in a confusing way (at least for me).

When you admit, come to the realisation of, proclaim or whatever, your place in the universe e.g. as children of God, as biological machines designed by natural selection to propagate its genes etc. you are experiencing your own internal construction of how the universe works and your place in it eg. as a pious disciple, a biological machine etc. Our construction of the universe is built up of various ideas. The act of having these ideas is to experience your construction of the universe, which is to say that you are always experiencing it directly, you don't need meditation to do that.

In my opinion meditation (at least as it is commonly practiced in the west) is more about the cessation of these ideas via seeing the illusory nature of mental phenomena, the self etc. For a brief time this allows one to bypass the existential dilemma "what am I doing here?" because the question itself becomes simply a thought which arises and descends like all other mental phenomena. I am agnostic as to whether this is a good idea, I think that by ignoring these questions it could come back to bite the meditator on the proverbial ass.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineviktor
psychotechnician
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Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23993767 - 01/08/17 08:53 PM (7 years, 22 days ago)

Hedonism might not be spiritual in the short term, but it sure is in the long term, because the pursuit of it will expose you to a wide variety of perspectives.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23994318 - 01/09/17 02:36 AM (7 years, 21 days ago)

while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.

Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"

thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: viktor]
    #23994410 - 01/09/17 05:20 AM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Hedonism might not be spiritual in the short term, but it sure is in the long term, because the pursuit of it will expose you to a wide variety of perspectives.




Being exposed to a wide variety of perspectives is essentially the same as saying you will learn something, but I can learn algebra and this will not likely give me a spiritual connection to the universe unless I import a bunch of other ideas also, so your point is moot.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23994412 - 01/09/17 05:22 AM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
while it may seem a noble endeavor, "finding one's place in the universe" is more about ORIENTATION and disorientation, than about achieving reliable permanent insight about it.

Another noble sounding all consuming idea is "what is the meaning of life?"

thoughts that disable or disorient are not preferred to me, I would not practice that kind of thinking in my meditation; while thoughts that sharpen my attention in the moment will be used for that purpose.




That's exactly my point, meditation bypasses these questions, at least for a short time. But I'm not sure that this is a good thing. I think there is some merit in grappling with these questions.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23995482 - 01/09/17 03:03 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Hedonism might not be spiritual in the short term, but it sure is in the long term, because the pursuit of it will expose you to a wide variety of perspectives.




Being exposed to a wide variety of perspectives is essentially the same as saying you will learn something, but I can learn algebra and this will not likely give me a spiritual connection to the universe unless I import a bunch of other ideas also, so your point is moot.




Learn some biology then, that's the kind of stuff that will teach you every single life form on Earth is genetically connected.

Chemistry can be great for new perspectives too, personally when I learnt the basics of the periodic table of elements I was fascinated by the simplest things such as incense sticks because I was able to understand what I was looking which was electrons being torn from matter.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibletHEfLY
Stranger
Registered: 04/16/16
Posts: 427
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: blingbling]
    #23995553 - 01/09/17 03:35 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Note that Gnosticism originally appeared in cosmopolitan cities like Alexandria and is in essence a mythology of alienation. I see this type of atomized individualism as a byproduct of multiculturalism and the egalitarian theories supporting it. Collective social structures start to break down when there is no common language for different groups to communicate with and society at large cannot agree on fundamental ideals, let alone anything relating to transcendence. That kind of thing is simply not talked about by anyone in the public sphere, lest anyone feel excluded, and a culture where nobody can be excluded is a culture where nobody can be included. (Alex Kurtagic is a Spanish writer who has published some good essays about how the imposition of equality destroys meaning in life)

This culture has (I think through deliberate social engineering) replaced religious feelings and organic collective identities with libertarian consumerism, so a person born into this environment having no connection to the past and no connection to the wider community has no choice except to find their own way through "Gnostic" heresies.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: sudly]
    #23995583 - 01/09/17 03:48 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Hedonism might not be spiritual in the short term, but it sure is in the long term, because the pursuit of it will expose you to a wide variety of perspectives.




Being exposed to a wide variety of perspectives is essentially the same as saying you will learn something, but I can learn algebra and this will not likely give me a spiritual connection to the universe unless I import a bunch of other ideas also, so your point is moot.




Learn some biology then, that's the kind of stuff that will teach you every single life form on Earth is genetically connected.

Chemistry can be great for new perspectives too, personally when I learnt the basics of the periodic table of elements I was fascinated by the simplest things such as incense sticks because I was able to understand what I was looking which was electrons being torn from matter.






I've done year 12 level biology and chemistry, I enjoyed it but I don't think I'll take it any further.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: The Gnostic Turn In Secular Society [Re: tHEfLY]
    #23995601 - 01/09/17 03:54 PM (7 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

tHEfLY said:
Note that Gnosticism originally appeared in cosmopolitan cities like Alexandria and is in essence a mythology of alienation. I see this type of atomized individualism as a byproduct of multiculturalism and the egalitarian theories supporting it. Collective social structures start to break down when there is no common language for different groups to communicate with and society at large cannot agree on fundamental ideals, let alone anything relating to transcendence. That kind of thing is simply not talked about by anyone in the public sphere, lest anyone feel excluded, and a culture where nobody can be excluded is a culture where nobody can be included. (Alex Kurtagic is a Spanish writer who has published some good essays about how the imposition of equality destroys meaning in life)

This culture has (I think through deliberate social engineering) replaced religious feelings and organic collective identities with libertarian consumerism, so a person born into this environment having no connection to the past and no connection to the wider community has no choice except to find their own way through "Gnostic" heresies.




Well put :super: I'll have to check out kurtagic. It's interesting to think about the culture of inclusion and exclusion with regard to the rise of populism in our times. People are begining to react against the culture of inclusion in unpredictable ways.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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