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Karma or cause/effect
    #9652361 -

I was listening to a lecture on Buddhism and the teacher gave a small sample of Karma. He said if you lie to get money it is not cause and effect because it is not repeatable. If every time you lied you got money it would be cause and effect. He said it is Karma, you got the money as repayment for a prior good deed and something such as being labeled a liar will be the resulting bad karma for lying.

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Indigenous]
    #9652392 -

This makes no sense whatsoever.


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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9652405 -

I didn't think so. I just wondered what science had to say.

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Indigenous]
    #9652406 -

That teacher is obviously a douche :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Indigenous]
    #9652464 -

Indigenous said:
I was listening to a lecture on Buddhism and the teacher gave a small sample of Karma. He said if you lie to get money it is not cause and effect because it is not repeatable. If every time you lied you got money it would be cause and effect. He said it is Karma, you got the money as repayment for a prior good deed and something such as being labeled a liar will be the resulting bad karma for lying.

I've heard Buddhist teachers say this as well.

One gave the example of stealing chocolate from the store.  She said it is delusion to believe that you are eating the chocolate because you stole it; you are actually enjoying the pleasurable sensation of eating the chocolate because of some prior, unrelated good deed.  Meanwhile, the negative karma you accrued by the act of theft will later manifest in some undesirable experience.

In the Buddhist model of karma, specific types of acts have specific consequences

Lying leads to slander
Theft leads to poverty
Trivial chatter leads to not being taken seriously
etc.

I think such parables are ways of reminding us to be mindful of the impact we have on others, and also to be mindful of the impact that acts rooted in anger, aversion, and craving make upon our consciousness.  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Lion]
    #9652507 -

Coroporate theft in America leads to a mansion in Boca Raton with pool and tennis courts, a trophy wife, and a BMW M5. Ahhh - karma!


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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9652528 -

Yes, but think of the suffering involved in all of that.  The artificiality of the splendor, the lurking knowledge that it was ill-bought, the constant nagging fear that you could lose this castle of sand you've built.  Plenty of negative karma there if you look at karma as something which occurs in consciousness.


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Lion]
    #9652550 -

Yeah, when the lion wrestles the zebra kill from the hyenas, I am sure it has trouble sleeping.


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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9652556 -

Animal consciousness is different from human consciousness.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Lion]
    #9652585 -

Buddhists look at things over many lifetimes. The corporate thief may have earned his loot in a previous life.

I have always been suspicious of those Buddhists.

In the Alan Watts book the way of zen it says to be like a cloud. I want to be like a cloud.

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Lion]
    #9652642 -

Lion said:
Animal consciousness is different from human consciousness.


Guilt is a learned response that not everyone ascribes to.


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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9652695 -

Quote:
Guilt is a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person realizes or believes - whether justified or not - that he or she has violated a moral standard, and is responsible for that violation.[1] It is closely related to the concept of remorse.


Morals would be the only variable in guilt. It is a human thing, though. Animals don't have morals. I guess sociopaths may not have guilt.

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Indigenous]
    #9652711 -

Humans also don't 'have' morals; they learn morals. It is nothing inherent.


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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9652739 -

Maybe if you are raised by wolves. I think that all humans learn right from wrong. Right and wrong are variables that would depend on society.
Do you feel there is no right and wrong?

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9652741 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Lion said:
Animal consciousness is different from human consciousness.


Guilt is a learned response that not everyone ascribes to.

If someone has transcended all of her or his conditioning, that person is said according to Buddhist teachings to be beyond karma, having perceived it as an illusion.  Most of us are caught in our conditioned habits and responses - our karmic tendencies.  I can't imagine some conniving CEO has transcended his conditioning (if he had, why would he desire all these transient, superficial objects?); but if he has, then he is indeed beyond karma.  Nothing extraordinary there.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Indigenous]
    #9652822 -

Quote:
Do you feel there is no right and wrong?


No universal right and wrong else all societies would agree on all moral issues. It is all totally arbitrary.

Is smoking cannabis right or wrong?


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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Indigenous]
    #9652917 -

Indigenous said:
Right and wrong are variables that would depend on society.



My stories are on argue among yourself while I am gone.

Edited by Indigenous (01/21/09 07:09 PM)

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Indigenous]
    #9653563 -

makes sense to me.

right and wrong are constructs that give way to themselves.  people are 'good' at their core.


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I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: Desos]
    #9653613 -

Quote:
right and wrong are constructs that give way to themselves


Translation?

Quote:
people are 'good' at their core.


What does that mean? Do you have any evidence?


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Re: Karma or cause/effect [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9653767 -

here, this thing explains it well:

it's a moralist argueing with a taoist.


http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys5/taomoral.htm

in short :


My
own experiences in life have led me to feel that the picture you describe is
quite wrong--the picture of the id as the wild, ferocious, dangerous beast,
and the superego as the avenging hero who holds the id in check.  If I think
in these Freudian terms at all (which incidentally I usually don't), my
picture is rather the opposite; I see the poor maligned id as really of a
sweet and loving nature, but the superego, by chaining and torturing the id,
drives it to respond with counterhostility and then indeed sometimes to
commit acts of violence.  Then the superego triumphantly laughs and says "See
what a vicious creature the id REALLY is!  You see now why I have to keep it
in restraint?  Just think how much more damage it would do if I didn't keep
it in check!"  The situation is perfectly analagous to a man who does not
trust his dog and keeps him perpetually chained.  The chaining process
obviously makes the dog vicious, and the man then says, "You see why such a
vicious dog has to be chained!"


--------------------
I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

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