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Invisiblekaleras
imperfectable
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 105
Why I don't believe in Karma.
    #3831658 - 02/25/05 05:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

First, let me say that I sometimes lack in the ability to properly explain things to the understanding of others, so please bear with me.


My belief is that the Karma, that so many believe in, is a total lie and nonexistent.  To me, it just doesn't make sense.  What goes around, comes around is not true.  Let me explain.


In Nature, everything strives to maintain a balance.  Electricity has positive and negative charges which attract to each other.  Magnetism has the same kind of positive and negative fields that attract.  Water will seek to be level, not high, not low.  Gravity pulls to the center; if you jump, you will fall, if you fall past the center, you will be pulled back up.  If you think about it, this goes for everything.  Opposites always attract, it is just the way of Nature.


Now, what this has to do with Karma is that Karma is stating that if you do negative things, negative things will happen to you, and if you do positive things, positive things will happen.  This goes completely against Nature.  My theory is that in reality, it works the other way around; if you put of negative vibes, you will be treated well, and if you put off positive vibes, you will be treated badly.


Lets take bullying for example.  You have a bully and you have a nice kid.  The bully will push the nice kid around, which gains him, for lack of a better word, respect.  Others will learn not to mess with the bully, and the nice kid will continue to get pushed around because he is nice.  But what if the nice kid changes?  What if he decides to push the bully around?  He'll gain the respect, and the bully won't bother him anymore.


Another example is cheating.  They say that cheaters never prosper, but when haven't they?  They win races, they pass exams, they get anything they want by cheating.  And what about the honest man?  He is the one that gets cheated!


In the examples, you see that putting off negative vibes reaps positive rewards, and putting off positive vibes reaps negative rewards.  Once again, opposites attract.


Now, I'm not saying that everyone should just go out and do negative things; there will always be plenty of people that do, and there will be just as many people that don't.  Nature must balance itself, though.  Good will never conquer Evil and Evil will never conquer Good, so always pick the Neutral ground. :smile:


Perhaps I'm completely wrong, but it is just my opinion.  Hopefully I explained things good enough to be understandable.




"Why do Bad things always happen to Good people?"


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Offlinebelowground
Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 119
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831695 - 02/25/05 05:32 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

all the examples you gave are short term. when a bully pushes others around, he is feared and respected for the wrong reasons. [not that there is a RIGHT reason to be feared] later in life, said bully will undoubtedly have a serious flaw in his overbearing, dominating personality, that will affect him in a negative way. when a cheater cheats, they may pass the test, but they do not gain the actual knowledge that comes with studying, understanding and learning.

karma is nonphysical, and as a nonphysical thing, the laws of nature do not apply. it is governed by a set of spiritual laws, and one of the principle of said laws is that good triumphs over evil. this is because negativity only begets further negativity, and good creates purity and harmony, whether it be in the short or long term.

hope i helped you understand. :laugh:


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Invisiblekaleras
imperfectable
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 105
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: belowground]
    #3831708 - 02/25/05 05:50 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i understand your point of view completely, but it is hard for me to separate the spiritual from the physical. at this point in time, i think i believe that spiritual things may exist such as, heaven and hell, life after death, reincarnation, but i do not believe that there is really any 'magic' to them. the 'magic' that is, i believe, stems from physical things that we just don't understand yet. you make good points that the bully may have flaws in his personality and that the cheater won't have the knowledge, but if the bully wishes to remain a bully and his personality brings him joy, then why would it matter to him if his flaws made others not like him? likewise with the cheater, if he cheated, did he really even care about having the knowledge in the first place?


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Offlinebelowground
Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 119
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831722 - 02/25/05 06:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

kaleras said:
t if the bully wishes to remain a bully and his personality brings him joy, then why would it matter to him if his flaws made others not like him? likewise with the cheater, if he cheated, did he really even care about having the knowledge in the first place?




it is indeed possible that the bully and the cheater do not care about the negativity they are generating. it's a moot point though. one does not have to believe in the principles of karma for it to affect you. they still suffer the adverse effects of what they have done.

also, the laws of spirituality have nothing to do with magic. they are simply explained by theory, as opposed to applied facts, as the laws of nature are. karma is just a word used to describe the effects your actions have on you later on down the road.

by stating you do not believe in karma, you're not saying you do not believe in "magic." you're saying that you don't belive there is a reaction to every action.


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OfflineKiafi
Psychonaut

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 182
Loc: Rehab
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831727 - 02/25/05 06:37 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting stance, though I think that it is extremely important to note some important semantic questions, such as-

What would constitute a positive or negative change?
By good and evil, do you imply a supreme judge of morality?
Does experiencing negative energy mean that you cannot resist it? Or that it's repurcussions will show somehow?

And so on. Also, consider the possibility of Karma's 'reward' manifesting out of life.


--------------------
Nothing is True. Everything is permitted.
Everything is true. Nothing is 'permitted'.



Every man and woman is a star.
Each star is it's own prison.


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Invisiblekaleras
imperfectable
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 105
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: belowground]
    #3831743 - 02/25/05 06:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

it is indeed possible that the bully and the cheater do not care about the negativity they are generating. it's a moot point though. one does not have to believe in the principles of karma for it to affect you. they still suffer the adverse effects of what they have done.




the effects really aren't adverse to them though, are they?


Quote:

also, the laws of spirituality have nothing to do with magic. they are simply explained by theory, as opposed to applied facts




i guess what i was trying to say was that people often see their spirituality as being of some mystical supernatural force, and that i don't believe it to be that at all.  i believe spirituality to be physical and governed by the same laws as nature, not its own set of theoretical laws.  we just don't understand everything about nature yet, which keeps us from understanding spirituality.


Quote:

by stating you do not believe in karma, you're not saying you do not believe in "magic." you're saying that you don't belive there is a reaction to every action.




i suppose that karma really isn't the appropriate word to use, but i don't know what else to call it.  you often hear people say 'karma is a bitch,' when referring to something negative that someone else did, implying that that person will receive negative effects of that action later on.  this is what i'm trying to state that i believe is false.




it is likely that i have no clue what i'm talking about, but i guess it is better to discuss it and maybe learn something than to remain ignorant. :smile:


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Invisiblekaleras
imperfectable
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 105
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: Kiafi]
    #3831763 - 02/25/05 07:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What would constitute a positive or negative change?
By good and evil, do you imply a supreme judge of morality?
Does experiencing negative energy mean that you cannot resist it? Or that it's repurcussions will show somehow?

And so on. Also, consider the possibility of Karma's 'reward' manifesting out of life.




i kind of think of it like this: lets say you contain a buffer of neutral energy. when you do something positive, some of your neutral energy is converted to positive energy, which can only be converted back to neutral via negative energy. it works the other way around too, you convert your neutral energy to negative energy and that negative energy can only be converted back to neutral with positive energy. it can't be left positive or negative because nature seeks to maintain a balance and having anything but neutral energy would be unbalanced. really hope that made sense...

by good and evil, i don't imply a judge, just positive and negative energy. perhaps happiness is a positively charged energy and sadness is a negatively charged energy?

experiencing negative energy would convert neutral energy to negative, and positive energy would convert neutral energy to positive. this would leave you unbalanced. nature would balance you by sending whatever energy you need to convert your energy back to neutral.


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Offlinebelowground
Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 119
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831767 - 02/25/05 07:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i believe that remaining neutral constitutes purity. when a person acts, they put into motion a set of events. take our bully.

he intimidates someone by force > not wishing to be violent or be the target of violence, the person reacts in a submissive way > the bully feels that his violence was validated by the fact that he got what he wanted, -dominance-

looking at it logically, it is tough to see how "karma" comes into play here, until much later down the road, when, like i mentioned earlier, he opens himself to the negative results of his actions, because he feels validated when he forces people into submission, which we all know can come back to affect you in a negative way. (say, when dealing with law enforcement) now, by remaining neutral, (which can be thought of as positive) the bully would have avoided any problems that could theoretically arise for him later on.

people may not receive negativity as a result of negative actions, it is all chance. HOWEVER, they do corrupt themselves in a fashion, which is negative. by choosing to willingly act in a non-neutral way, our bully is choosing to forego learning several important lessons about life. using force to make other people do something is not as productive as explaing your views and making a valid point. this is simply true because the latter can be used lifelong, whereas the former cannot.

karma is theory because good and bad and neutral are all relative to several different elements of thought.

also, i don't believe that spirituality is meant to be understood. i do believe that cogent theories are meant to be applied to it, until the end of human thought. it is different from nature in this way.

and so, to sum up my longwindedness, karma is relative to the person who is speaking about it. people are affected negatively by the (so called) negative actions they choose to commit, because they are foregoing learning more valuable lessons about life.

god, did i miss anything? let me know if i did, it's 7am and i'm a bit tired. :laugh:


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Invisiblekaleras
imperfectable
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 105
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: belowground]
    #3831777 - 02/25/05 07:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

7:27am... i sense a long day ahead :drooling:


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Offlinebelowground
Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 119
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831779 - 02/25/05 07:30 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

livejournal > deadjournal. you should get one, i could use some intelligent commentary on my nonsense.


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Invisiblekaleras
imperfectable
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 105
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: belowground]
    #3831791 - 02/25/05 07:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)



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Offlinebelowground
Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 119
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831810 - 02/25/05 08:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

added! i'm out for the morning. see you around, man.


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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831814 - 02/25/05 08:01 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So what your basicaly saying is that, if you go around doing bad things then only good can come out of it?


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Invisiblekaleras
imperfectable
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 105
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: niteowl]
    #3831823 - 02/25/05 08:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

exactly. only good can come from your bad things, but it doesn't make you immune to other people forcing bad things upon you.


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Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
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Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831846 - 02/25/05 08:28 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Just how long have you been practicing this "theory". Im sure if you do this long enuf you will have a better understanding of karma.

Do you believe that doing realy bad things will bring you realy good things.


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Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: kaleras]
    #3831873 - 02/25/05 08:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Karma assumes that the universe knows what is right and wrong. This I find very hard to believe.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Registered: 07/01/03
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Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: deafpanda]
    #3832170 - 02/25/05 10:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
Karma assumes that the universe knows what is right and wrong.  This I find very hard to believe.





The only "universe" that you need to be aware of is the one you live in every day. People are your "universe". If you go around treating people bad they will judge you as a bad person and treat you the same.

The "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you" rule only goes so far. Once you have treated people bad long enuf the rules change. Not for everyone, mind you, just the person who has been being bad. The rule switches to "Do unto others as they have done unto you".

That is when (in your "universe") people start treating YOU bad. 


Go ahead test your "theory".

Start treating people like shit. See what happens.














Karma my friend.  :wink:






:goodluck:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: niteowl]
    #3832243 - 02/25/05 11:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So you're saying karma isn't really any kind of rule (that was what I was arguing against) but a loose common sense guideline?

Okay, but then why is it so often talked about as a coherent concept?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: deafpanda]
    #3832249 - 02/25/05 11:07 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

People often say that since this guy did something wrong something bad will happen to him "because of karma". For this to be true, karma would have to be more than a vague assertion that "what goes around comes around". I don't believe that good things (apart from reciprocal good things) tend to happen to good people rather than bad people.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Registered: 10/13/04
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Re: Why I don't believe in Karma. [Re: deafpanda]
    #3832280 - 02/25/05 11:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

karma justifies the misery we still live in. it is a psychological interpretation of life so as to give it some moral coherence.

why are babies born into this world to suffer enormously and end up dying? how can you possibly explain that?

karma says that what you do in this life will influence your next life.

so maybe that was someone who did very wrong in a previous life.

it doesn't mean, oh ok, if something awful happens to someone is because that person did bad in a previous life so they deserve it. no. you need to develop your compassion for every living being.
but it provides logic to karma and doesn't fare badly at explaining suffering and its solution. because the more we all act well and do as much good as we can, the less likely innocents will suffer.


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