Home | Community | Message Board


Shroom Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Karma = objective morality
    #3611669 - 01/11/05 09:32 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

If you believe in karma, you believe that the universe knows whether your actions are right or wrong, therefore you believe that there is an objective standard of morality.

Just pointing this out as I've heard loads of people who believe in karma rail against the notion of objective morality.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,920
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3611721 - 01/11/05 10:05 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

not that simple

a view of karma may involve a struggle with non-duality (i.e non separation from the universe);

during such a struggle, any other concept, such as morality, can be compromised.

so you can't use it as a foundation or cornerstone for any but the most fleeting of constructions.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedr0mni
My Own Messiah
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3611743 - 01/11/05 10:15 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

karma is a word that is controvertial and open to a lot of (mis)interpretation. I of course have my own opinion of what it means and I hope that they will help...

I believe that morals are entirely a socially constructed concept. Not to say that they are irrellevent, just relative. I like to think of karma as one of Newtons laws of physics; "For every action there is a reaction". Everything that you do or think has an effect on the world around you and vice versa. If you approach someone thinking that they are an ignorant asshole and you treat them so, they are going to react to you like they are an ignorant asshole. If you approach someone with respect and compassion they most likely will be respectful towards you. Karma doesn't mean that if you steal $2.35 from someone that someone will steal $2.35 from you sometime in the future and it doesn't mean that if you are always performing good deeds that you will live a cushy comfy life. It simply means that all of your actions and thoughts have consequences (positive and negative) that may often be beyond our scope of perception but are still very real.

I hope my opinion helps.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: dr0mni]
    #3611751 - 01/11/05 10:19 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

This view makes sense, although it sort of makes the concept of "karma" interchangeable with a few common-sense notions about how our actions affect the world. Do you believe in karma as an energy force?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,920
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: dr0mni]
    #3611756 - 01/11/05 10:22 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

would you say that your interpretation puts

the generative part of karma in the attitude side of the personal equation
and the resultant side of karma in the experiencing of pleasure or pain?

(that would get you right in line with abhidhamma though they do not put the word attitude out, they talk of citta (mind-moments) with various bouquets of components)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineskystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3611796 - 01/11/05 10:36 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

deafpanda said:
If you believe in karma, you believe that the universe knows whether your actions are right or wrong, therefore you believe that there is an objective standard of morality.

Just pointing this out as I've heard loads of people who believe in karma rail against the notion of objective morality.




If you are thinking about me (I said specificly that there is no objective morality),that is if that was you that I was speaking about that in the death morals thread, I'll just specify what I ment..

Morality as a set of rules of behaviour is man made..
But morality was bilt on the foundations of the idea of positive and negative. And since positive and negative could be clearly defined
by any culture, any human being born outside civilisation, you could say that there is positive and negative as an objective principle.

Causing pain with the intention of causing pain is negative..
A doctor causes pain, but with the intention of healing the patients, so it is not negative.

You could say that not causing pain or any damage unless necessary for a greater good of that same being and WITH permision of the same being is the positive way to live.

but this is not morality. Morality is like a carnation of such concepts into solid rules and codes of behaviour.
And morality spreads far beyond just positive or negative.

You or whoever it was, said something like "It is moral to kill someone who has commited homicide"

That is what morality as we know is all about: subjective views..

There can be only one objective rule for positive life:
do not harm

Every other rule such as, if this, then that, if that then this
is subjective and relative.


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: skystone]
    #3611829 - 01/11/05 10:49 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

If you are thinking about me (I said specificly that there is no objective morality),that is if that was you that I was speaking about that in the death morals thread, I'll just specify what I ment..




It wasn't directed at you, I agreed with your point of view and mainly stayed out of that thread. But anyway, your response is appreciated :P

Quote:

Morality as a set of rules of behaviour is man made..
But morality was bilt on the foundations of the idea of positive and negative. And since positive and negative could be clearly defined
by any culture, any human being born outside civilisation, you could say that there is positive and negative as an objective principle.




ARe actions really ever positive or negative, in objective terms? Remembering that objective means not just confined to the realm of humans - take this example:

Positive means beneficial. If we are taking this to mean "beneficial to humans" then we are ruling out objective positivity.

If we take this to mean "beneficial" in its widest sense, ie overall beneficial to everything that exists, then can this state of affairs ever happen? Can the universe really ever be objectively improved? I would say no, but either way we can have no knowledge of whether something is beneficial on a universal level. Therefore I must say that I don't believe in objective positives/negatives.

Quote:

Causing pain with the intention of causing pain is negative..



Agreed, on a human level. Who's to say whether it is negative on a universal level?

Quote:

You could say that not causing pain or any damage unless necessary for a greater good of that same being and WITH permision of the same being is the positive way to live.




Agreed.

Quote:

but this is not morality. Morality is like a carnation of such concepts into solid rules and codes of behaviour.
And morality spreads far beyond just positive or negative.




It is morality, morality is any take on what is right/positive. Your description of a positive way to live is similar to utilitarianism, which is a theory of morality. What you are talking about here is objective morality, solid rules.

Quote:

That is what morality as we know is all about: subjective views..




Indeed.

Quote:

There can be only one objective rule for positive life:
do not harm




How can this apply in every situation? If it is objective then it is immoral to harm in any situation. I can't see how this could work. To eat, you must harm.


Edited by deafpanda (01/11/05 10:51 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: skystone]
    #3611834 - 01/11/05 10:50 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Buddha once had a deciple, who was always very moral and disciplined monk. One day he left the monistary and was on a ship leaving for the west, his cabin happened to be next door to a man who was planning to murder all of the passengers and steal the ship. The disciple caught wind of the mans intentions and was overwhelmed about what to do.

Without thinking or judging he went next door and stabbed the man through the heart with the sole intention of saving the lives of all passengers on board the ship.

He went back to the buddha and collapsed in a heap crying at the buddha's feet, he explained what had happened and how he broke his vows of morality and killed a living sentient being.

The buddha gently picked the man from the floor, and holding him close told him that his actions were of pure motivation, and had created abundant positive karma, and he had no cause for worry.

The man instantly lost all of his guilt and vowed to always be of pure motivation for the benefit of all beings in all of his actions regardless of morality, virtue, and discipline.

The man gained enlightenment within one lifetime.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,920
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: Sinbad]
    #3611858 - 01/11/05 11:01 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

thus morality and the laws of the land can move in different directions:
where they meet could also be qi if you arrive in the right courtroom.
(I have a friend who is a judge, and he is a full blown qi type - very very rare)

Milarepa - a major figure in tibetan buddhist lineage also was a murderer.

lots of baggage is possible, and still one may be a bright light.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineskystone
stop the motion
Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 465
Loc: state,country,etc.
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3611871 - 01/11/05 11:08 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Positive and negative are just words I use..

What I really mean is that there is a choice to benefit life
or not, both of them have concequences.
Not benefiting life will result in the reverse effect of what universe is trying to do and what universe is all about..construction
and making more and more complex structures...

It's like a molecule of watter not obeying the rules in an ocean.
It doesn't make her wrong or evil or something, but it just doesn't go along with the plan of the ocean..

When I say "plan of the universe" or "what universe is trying to do", I don't mean it in spiritual sense.
I am just refering to the coordination tha matter has..
All of the universe, all matter has some sort of agenda of building
and construction..which makes it I think "positive" for us to apply
the same rule to our own existence.

So by positive I mean going with the flow in a way...


--------------------
"..and suddenly it began to rain"


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3611874 - 01/11/05 11:10 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

My father is a Qi-gong master who teaches in the UK and the Czech repulic. His numer 1 instructor in the czech is a judge (strange). I would give you the website but its currently offline

Here is the link anyways for future reference

http://www.bodhidharma.cz/


Milerapa had a seriously hard time purifying his negative karma! You should read his life story man, and how he became enlightened. His story is of so much inspriation to me as it isnt like the sotries of Saints where there actions are completely pure and they lead pure lives. He was human like us and as such had the same faults attributed to all human beings, and through great effort and determination attained complete enlightenment in one lifetime.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinedeafpanda
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 984
Loc: Inguland
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: skystone]
    #3611895 - 01/11/05 11:19 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

When I say "plan of the universe" or "what universe is trying to do", I don't mean it in spiritual sense.
I am just refering to the coordination tha matter has..
All of the universe, all matter has some sort of agenda of building
and construction..which makes it I think "positive" for us to apply
the same rule to our own existence.




That's much better. I agree with this.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePedM
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/31/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 6 days
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3612587 - 01/11/05 02:22 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

It's precisely because of non-duality, no-objectivity, that karma, as a law of cause and effect, occurs. It's precisely because there is no ultimate distinction between the mind and what is perceived by mind that our mental and physical actions return to us in the form of experiences.

Karma is not an externally imposed set of ethics put upon us by "the" universe. That is a misconception put upon us by coca-cola commercials. It is the Christian view, the Western view, that the universe is an ordered hierarchy, which causes us to interpret karma as originating from the outside, operating of it's own accord, divinely ordained by a kind of super-ego, be that God or "the universe".

Those mental and physical actions which serve as the cause to experience suffering are considered "bad karma". Those mental and physical actions which serve as the cause to experience happiness are considered "good karma." These are subjective terms. Since it is part of our essential nature to be happy and blissful, and not to experience suffering, the moral structure built upon karmic principle is oriented in such a way that it guides us in this direction. As a system of ethics, it is relevant only to us, and, like us, has no special place within the continuum of things.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 64,518
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: deafpanda]
    #3612665 - 01/11/05 02:37 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

karma = universal balance

there is no good and bad.. there is only energy interacting.. there is yin and yang.. there is balance


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,920
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: Ped]
    #3612740 - 01/11/05 02:54 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

abhidhamma is probably the last word on karma in buddhism.
(abhi - highest, dhamma - teaching)

in abhidhamma causative karma is attached only to mind moments that have roots - either kusala or akusala (good or bad) of which are only 3 altogether each:
for bad roots there is hatred greed and delusion,
for good roots there is kindness, generosity and clarity.

resultant karma has only 2 types which are feelings of pain and pleasure
and these 2 results (feelings) can be in any mind moment.

Neutral feelings are not associated with karmic results.

We are supposed to be free of karma only when very detatched states of mind are experienced and these have no cumulative effects but may have results from previous actions or "spontaneously".

In buddhist philosophy (abhidhamma at least) karma is part of all aspects of psychology and it is easy to understand if you can understand mind moments -

any person who has ever seen trails or sequences of buffered experiencing knows that mind moments in series is the medium of consiousness.

if a feeling of pleasure occurs that is evidence or the result of good karma, and if a feeling of pain occurs that is evidence or the result of bad karma. very very simple.

sometimes due to association, a person may have a pleasurable feeling at the same time that an action with hatred or greed or delusion is occuring. this is a very mixed up situation. a moral dilemma. the resultant feeling (from a different moment) becomes associated with the action (at this moment) while the feeling is actually resultant from some other source moment. The confused hater then hates harder until the pleasure comes back (by chance it might from something unrelated), but the sequence is not as presumed. the decision to seek pleasure in hatred is also bad karma based in delusion and so on...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3613050 - 01/11/05 04:05 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

On this occasion i understand you perfectly. All of what you say is correct except that their ARE karmic effects from neutral actions.

Neutral actions have neutral karmic effects. For instance when one neither has positive or negative intentions when carrying out an action, this places a nuetral karmic seed in ones mindtream.

All experiences that arise in our condition are born of karmic seeds. When secondary causes are present they act like water fertilising the seeds, when those seeds grow and come into fruition, then we experience the effect. This is how cause an effect functions.

Even if we were in very detattched states of mind, these arise becuase of causes placed in our mindstream from past actions associated with detachment.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: Ped]
    #3613067 - 01/11/05 04:14 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

If karma has no predictive power nor truly tells us why something happened, it seems to be a useless concept created to assuage people who feel life is unfair.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: Shroomism]
    #3613075 - 01/11/05 04:16 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

What does karma say about lying and denying and breaking one's word? Are these "service-to-others" actions?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: Swami]
    #3613155 - 01/11/05 04:34 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

The creation of karma is purley dependant on ones intention. If one has selfish intentions and lie's to gain something or decive somebody for themselves, then that would create the potentiality of negative karma which has its result when seconday causes are present.

But if one were to tell the same lie with the intention of protecting or benefiting others, then this would create the potentiality of good karma which has its reults when secondary causes are present.

If you are experineces some negative results in your life, then you can be sure that

1. Secondary causes are in present for example you find youself in a negative environment.

2. You have created the karmic potentiality (seed) within your mindstream with past negative actions.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (01/11/05 04:40 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Karma = objective morality [Re: Sinbad]
    #3613173 - 01/11/05 04:39 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

You fail to address how we can witness and utilize this vague concept.

And then there is the big bugaboo of self-deception. Example: a leader wants to go to war and believes it is in the best interest of the people so he creates fabrications to sway the masses. Billions of dollars are wasted and many, many thousands of lives are destroyed in the ensuing chaos, but no there are no karmic repercussions? Methinks such a leader is actually bound to ego and searching for self glorification.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Anonymous 12,311 157 12/21/04 08:31 AM
by deafpanda
* Screwed Karma
( 1 2 all )
EvilGir 2,262 36 12/08/03 09:33 PM
by Ped
* Determinism & Objective/Subjective Morality TinTree 2,060 13 01/24/05 12:34 PM
by shroomydan
* Question for moral objectivists
( 1 2 all )
silversoul7 2,308 31 06/14/03 12:42 PM
by NewToTrippin
* Death Morals
( 1 2 3 all )
IAmTheWalrus212 2,057 46 01/10/05 01:35 PM
by redgreenvines
* Are morals subjective?
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,508 35 04/24/03 07:58 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Underlying Message of Morals Ravus 553 6 02/12/05 01:45 AM
by fireworks_god
* Do Basic Human Morals Exist
( 1 2 all )
mrfreedom 3,136 24 05/28/02 09:55 AM
by Sclorch

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
2,814 topic views. 1 members, 2 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Marijuana Demystified
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.089 seconds spending 0.002 seconds on 16 queries.