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Offlinecleaner
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Flaw in the universal karma law
    #1908929 - 09/12/03 10:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)


Tell me, why people who act out of best intentions coming from their hearts get the worst fate?

Let me draw 3 examples from real life.
There was this man, he met a woman of his dreams while he was poor and on the street, they were truly happy together and they eventually got rich, everything was perfect until his woman got cancer and died.
Few years passed and he moved on met another woman.
Some years later he got broke and that woman showed her true colors,
treated him like shit and eventually landed him in jail.
The only thing he ever wished for was to live with a woman of his dreams and it was taken away from him. Yet he still tried to move on.
He had a daughter and she became his reason for living. Once again,
in the most unfortunate circumstances he got betrayed, and couldn't
see his daughter ever again.
Once again, the most important thing in his life was taken away from him.

Example two
There was this guy living a honourable life, never meant any harm to anyone. Everything was going great, he was about to go to college, when out of the blue he discovers he has a blood disorder, he suddenly falls ill and his life went straight down hill, ruined from there and never recovered.

Example three.
Here i can name the person, Nush from British Big Brother, i happen to know her and she is one of the sweetest creations of life to ever live on this God forsaken planet.
Short while ago she was mugged in London and the person who did it pushed her so hard, she broke her knee cap and won't be able to walk properly for at least 2 staggering years and never be able to participate in exercises and yoga.

Now. I can understand why we have wars and ongoing mass suffering because this planet is ruled by elite satanists.
But the above examples were not caused by satan or his followers.
It was pure chaos - luck - that thing that makes you turn left instead
of right one day.
It is karma, don't even argue about it. And it comes from God himself.

What is this horseshit that if you lead a good life good returns to you?
The above examples aren't just 3 i managed to pick out.

It seems to me that the more son of a bitch you are the more good luck
you get from above. While the most sincere, loving people get screwed over in the most terrible ways. The universe has a sick sense of humour and makes jokes at such peoples expense. Such practise is as old as time itself. I remember my long departed farther was telling me the same thing.

"every jot and title of karma comes up for
balancing... The cosmic justice system is one of the most incredible
things I have come to understand." I don't think the word incredible is the one i would use to describe this law.

And don't even give me shit
like they were sinners in their past life and need to suffer etc. because EVEN IF THEY WERE, (but they' weren?t) EVEN IF THEY WERE hate only creates more hate, suffering creates more suffering and if it was the case they did prove once and for all THEY CAN live good lives and if they did something bad in the past life it was probably the result of thier fucked up fate in the first place.

What the bloody hell is going on?

If you're gonna say that negative condition on the planet drags others with it then how do you explain that discrimination against those who live following their hearts?
But if the planet is so negative that we have to suffer so bad, well that's just great, we're doomed and big thanks to God for creating satan in the first place so that we could "earn" his light. Yeah what a great way to "earn".



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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: cleaner]
    #1909103 - 09/12/03 12:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It was pure chaos - luck - that thing that makes you turn left instead
of right one day.
It is karma, don't even argue about it. And it comes from God himself.





Why post this to the S&P board if you don't want people to argue about it? I agree that it sure seems like there's not much sense to things sometimes, and good people suffer.

Itsounds like you have your ideas all tangled up.
It was luck, karma, *and* God?? If it was luck, it wasn't God or karma. If it was karma it wasn't God. Sounds like you may want to clarify what you really feel about the cause of these things.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: cleaner]
    #1909140 - 09/12/03 12:15 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Unfortunately,shit happens.


Karma, God, etc. Whatever.

When a large cat is chasing a group of gazelles and one gets caught and eaten, was it that gazelles karma that caused its fate?


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: sirreal]
    #1909286 - 09/12/03 01:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The word "Karma" is difficult to translate. It is meant to inflect a wide variety of momentous adjectives at once: "Go", "Going", and "To do", "Do", "Doing", "Done", and "Action", "Actions", "Reaction", "Reactions". It is the force which propells our transmigration and perpetual transformations from one instant to the next, and which dictates the nature of our living circumstances, as well as our comfort within those circumstances.

As a crude example:

A man robs a woman of her purse and makes his escape unharmed, undetected, and a suprising $5000 richer. By doing so, he has disturbed his own peace of mind, his own happiness. If it's believed that our spirits are essentially good and favour virtue to non-virtue, comitting such a crime is to create our own personal hell which will inevitably manifest through our own actions, or reactions to events beyond our control.

The woman, having lead an ethically sound life helping the homeless for the past 45 years, finds herself not angered by her loss, not fearful or preturbed, but at peace and in pity for the evident misguidance of the man who robbed her. This woman has created such security and insight for herself through consistent acts of genuine virtue. Self-created peace.

Two weeks later, the robber falls victim to a mugger who holds him up for a mere $50. The robber curses, screams and fights, and goes home bleeding and angry, slamming his door. He decides to drown his feelings in alcohol, and wakes up the next afternoon with his head pounding, his stomach churning. This is the hell he has created for himself manifesting in response to a lost $50, and the fright of being the victim of such a violent circumstance.

That's the best I can do.

Karmic law is not a force divinely arbitrating justice and grace where it is deserved. Karma is a force we bring upon ourselves, a sort of cosmic echo of our own actions. If we pollute our spirits and the spiritual continuum with ill will, it will come back on us by our own volition. Just as we are the cause of our own karma, we are the catylist that brings it upon us. This is called Samsara in Sanskrit.

Alongside a belief in Karma most often is a belief in reincarnation. We are not absolved of past-life karma upon our death and rebirth. We may not have retained past-life memories, but our spirit has retained the memory of the deeds which nourish us, and misdeeds that poison our hearts. To act virtuous in this life is to "clear the air" for the karma of our past lives to manifest in our immediate spirit for us to address. It is a process entirely self-governed.

Christianity has externalized their take on this notion, and thus absolved itself of responsibility for it's own actions. Rather than the belief that our sufferings and joys are self-created, Christianity has projected the whole ordeal onto a God figure, who dishes out justice on the heads of Earth's wayward criminals, whom in my opinion simply don't know any better.

>> When a large cat is chasing a group of gazelles and one gets caught and eaten, was it that gazelles karma that caused its fate?

Karma is to be scaled down in the animal kingdom, which demonstrates far less complexity than the human realm. I can't much tell you anything other than the gazelle will choose it's rebirth in greater awareness and greater security depending the degree of fear and pain it endured. The cat's continuuation will be based around it's capacity to understand what has just occured and why, and what it's motives had been. Being that cats and gazelles do not posess the emotional, intellectual, or neurological diversity and complexity as human beings, karmic framework must be adjusted accordingly.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: Ped]
    #1909306 - 09/12/03 01:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I wrote this a few years ago, but I still toss it out there now and again...

Karma is baggage.
Good or evil, it doesn't matter.
Baggage is baggage.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: Ped]
    #1909336 - 09/12/03 01:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:

A man robs a woman of her purse and makes his escape unharmed, undetected, and a suprising $5000 richer. By doing so, he has disturbed his own peace of mind, his own happiness. If it's believed that our spirits are essentially good and favour virtue to non-virtue, comitting such a crime is to create our own personal hell which will inevitably manifest through our own actions, or reactions to events beyond our control.

The woman, having lead an ethically sound life helping the homeless for the past 45 years, finds herself not angered by her loss, not fearful or preturbed, but at peace and in pity for the evident misguidance of the man who robbed her. This woman has created such security for herself through consistent acts of genuine virtue. Self-created peace.

Two weeks later, the robber falls victim to a mugger who holds him up for a mere $50. The robber curses, screams and fights, and goes home bleeding and angry, slamming his door. He decides to drown his feelings in alcohol, and wakes up the next afternoon with his head pounding, his stomach churning. This is the hell he has created for himself manifesting in response to a lost $50, and the fright of being the victim of such a violent circumstance.

That's the best I can do.





Not bad. I agree that we create negative circumstances and negative feelings within ourselves when we commit "negative" actions. There are consequences that come from our actions.External and internal consequences.



Quote:

Alongside a belief in Karma most often is a belief in reincarnation. We are not absolved of past-life karma upon our death and rebirth. We may not have retained past-life memories, but our spirit has retained the memory of the deeds which nourish us, and misdeeds that poison our hearts. To act virtuous in this life is to "clear the air" for the karma of our past lives to manifest in our immediate spirit for us to address. It is a process entirely self-governed.





Uh, does not compute.

This seems as rediculous as the notion that God punishes a man for the sins of his father. Wierd.



--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: sirreal]
    #1909412 - 09/12/03 01:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well, if you assume that the spirit which drives your thoughts and feelings beneath your persona is the very same spirit which soared as a bird, swung through trees as a lemur, and built nests as an ant, then you must assume the same of multiple human lifetimes as well. Having only the awareness of this life does not limit your cache of "spiritual baggage", as it was so perfectly put. If your personality is the amalgamation of your experiences and actions in this life, then your true self, your spirit, is what resides beneath all of this. In fact, many Tibetan practices involve past life regression. Sages, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas all report immersive experiences in past-life rememberance.

With karma and reincarnation comes from this system the basic belief that we are asleep to our true selves. It is our true selves which harbour the baggage of which I speak, and which perpetuates our karma. That true self is what is sought in Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and it knows no limits to it's memory, and carries with it the karma of eons of experience.


--------------------


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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: Ped]
    #1909442 - 09/12/03 02:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

dont forget that Karma spans many lifetimes...

Here ya go, cleaner, here's an example of my own:

The mountain vole and the prairie vole are two very similar animals. There is only one difference between them. The Prairie Vole's genetics have an alteration in them that causes the production of an enzyme called Vassopressin. The effect of this gene is that it makes Prairie Voles monogamous creatures that care for their young, whereas Mountain Voles are promiscuous and don't give a shit about their kids. Sometimes, they even eat them.

Praire Vole population is on the rise, mountain voles are on the decline. Why?

Because the fact that they are monogamous and care for their young makes survival much more probable for their species, as opposed to the Mountain Voles...

selfishness benefits the individual. Altruism benefits the entire species. Selfishness may be useful to the individual within his lifetime, but it does nothing to protect future generations of that individual's genetics.

so, over time, selfish genes which are detrimental to the entire species (which many of them are) will be naturally deselected, and altruistic genes will thrive, if they serve some benfeciary purpose.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: Ped]
    #1909492 - 09/12/03 02:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Well, if you assume that the spirit which drives your thoughts and feelings beneath your persona is the very same spirit which soared as a bird, swung through trees as a lemur, and built nests as an ant, then you must assume the same of multiple human lifetimes as well.




Why must this assumption be made?




Quote:

If your personality is the amalgamation of your experiences and actions in this life, then your true self, your spirit, is what resides beneath all of this.




By linking karma to reincarnation are you saying that your personality in this life helps shape your "true self" in the next?

Quote:

With karma and reincarnation comes from this system the basic belief that we are asleep to our true selves.




Yet our "true selves" somehow integrate our experiences in this life into itself in the next life?

I have never really considered any of this before. But I find myself becoming more and more interested in these things the more seperated I become from my old mindsets. I am really curious.




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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1909493 - 09/12/03 02:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

hey cleaner, its past 9/11, wheres your big event that will kill 100000 people? HUH?

didnt think so


--------------------
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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: IamHungry]
    #1909505 - 09/12/03 02:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

IamHungry said:
hey cleaner, its past 9/11, wheres your big event that will kill 100000 people?  HUH?

didnt think so 




I thought he was the guy!  :lol: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: sirreal]
    #1909620 - 09/12/03 02:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

cleaner - I have been following your posts for very long, and I CAN offer advice to you.


First off, your emotional and mental state seem to be draining and not well kept. Perphaps you should stop worrying about the end of the world, which is only a PRESUMED REALITY, not DESTINED....and start worrying about your OWN state...your inner state.

Being very in tune to the way people act, talk, type, present themselves, etc...and having been through many hellish mindstates and physical states, I can safely say that your body needs improved conditions. That and/or your mind.





Secondly, kharma just means "For every action there is a consequence"

Kind of like Newtons "For every action there is a equal reaction" law.



To put the blame on some outside being for events happening on this planet can be done, and will always be done - but regardless doesn't mean that its true.


Humans have freewill, or atleast something similiar. We are each responsible for our own destiny.



If this were a Disney movie, than I would most certainly agree with you and say "what the hell, re-write this movie , its not happening right". The fact of the matter is, this is REALITY, atleast from the human perspective.


Do you not realize that once you are born, you are subject to experience EVERY FORM OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE POSSIBLE....wether the most intense suffering or the most blissful happiness?

I think you must step outside of your human perspective for a second and raelize that purely experiencing anything in itself is great.


I have been suffering for years with a neurological disorder, and all it has done is awaken me to the reality that all suffering is ego-based. Pain will always exist, but to suffer is to take hold of the pain and fight it.


I still suffer, but I realize atleast why I suffer. I havent yet come to terms , or my ego hasnt, that "I deserve this". In reality, I am lucky enough to have a disease that gives me a wake up call to use my life wisely.






Good luck with life brother.


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1909649 - 09/12/03 02:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hey cleaner, not to change the subject but its September 12 and i didnt hear of any terrorist attacks sparking off world war 3. Anyway Karma never made much sense to me unless it carries over into your reincarnation. SUre i seen people get what they deserve in the other hand i seen horrible things happen to nice people but hey what are you gonna do about it??


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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1909696 - 09/12/03 03:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Man, Supermarket, clean the fucking house! :grin:

Time to bust out a package of 5 shrooms.. heh Those are my words spoken by someone else...
Peace.


--------------------
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: cleaner]
    #1909760 - 09/12/03 03:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

my idea of karma is that it's simply an affirmation that everything is caused by something else, and that everything you do, good or bad, has consequences, good or bad.

here's a real life example:

saturday night i was at a party with my girlfriend. i'd been drinking a bit, and was also giving some of the other young ladies at the party a little more attention then my girlfriend was comfortable with. she confronted me about it, and i pretty much blew her off, prompting her to leave without me, most upset. later that night, i foolishly thought that it would be a good idea to try to jump from the second floor balcony.

the fact that at that point the night went to shit for me and that my back is sore as hell right now and has been for days is not the universe's way of getting back at me for being a dick to my girlfriend. no, rather it's just what happens to you if you're an idiot and you jump from a building.

my $.02.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: sirreal]
    #1909787 - 09/12/03 03:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Let's not berate cleaner, please -- I'm sure there are those of us  whom are enjoying this thread and don't appreciate the clutter.  Thanks.
:smile:


>> Why must this assumption be made?

Because that is the nature of this system of belief.  The belief is that all beings are eternal, without beginning or end, and experience themselves and the universe through the sensory organs and biological bits of physical entities.  Overlayed on top of the eternal spirit (often called the Clear Light, or Brahman, or Soul), are our personalities, comprised of our experiences and conditioning.  Our personalities are superficial and transitional, whereas our True Selves are eternal, growing and changing into endless time.

To better articulate what I'm saying, I'll reference a post I made a few days ago.  I had said that the Greek word "persona" was originally used in theater as a word for the many masks actors must don to fit their many roles in a performance.  The word directly translates as "that which the sound passes through."  Our personalities can be spoken of much the same way, as the masks through which our spirit experiences it's surroundings.  Just as an actor may in his career use many masks and many persona's, so do we take on many forms and personalities throughout the ongoing learning process of many lifetimes.

>> By linking karma to reincarnation are you saying that your personality in this life helps shape your "true self" in the next?

Not quite.  The True Self undergoes no fundamental impact from the rather weightless experiences we all endure through life.  For example, if I enter a Math class and come away from the building understanding geometry, I've learned something, but I have not been changed on any deeper level than the knowledge acquired. 

What I meant to say by linking karma and reincarnation was that the karma we accumulate for ourselves helps shape the cirumstances of the next life, the degree of blessing or hardship we will encounter.  For example, I was born into a loving family with warm food and shelter accessible to me at all times.  If the doctrine of karma is consistent, I built such a life for myself in the past, either by leading a life of selflessness and care for others, or by enduring terrible suffering perpetrated by someone else.  This is not to say I was ushered in to this comfortable life by some kind of divine being, rather that the events of my past lives made my own placement here most likely to occur.  If negative karma is a square peg and positive karma is a round peg, then negative circumstances would be a square hole and postive circumstances would be a round hole.  My True Self, then, slid into this life because that is where I was most likely to land. 

You can think of it almost like that game "Plinko" on The Price is Right.  If the disc is somehow able to discern between which pegs will land him in the $10,000 slot, and which will land him in the $0.00 slot, then the disc would make the appropriate choices and slide where it is most favourable.  The degree of the disc's awareness of it's surroundings will determine it's ability to influence it's favourable outcome.

There is a trap to being born in favourable circumstance, however.  Being born to a loving family and a warm home is much more condusive to ignorance of all of this than being born to a dying family where food and water are minimal.  This is why India's youth, while often thirsty and constantly fighting disease, are generally happy people who commune with eachother.  By comparison, America's youth, whom are relatively well fed with comfortable places to sleep, typically shut themselves in their bedrooms for a period of their lives and write angry poetry, wrought with self-created aguish.  None of these descriptions are meant to be blanket statements.  Of course there are huge grey areas.

This is where the gift of compassion comes in, however.  Compassion is what stings in us at the sight of another's pain.  It is born into all of us, and we have all experienced it to some degree.  Compassion is a powerful motivator toward wisdom and insight, and serves to prompt the appropriate questions we must ask of ourselves and of life.  If our comfort has caused us to succumb to ignorance, then it is compassion which jostle's us awake.  Compassion is the most important ingredient toward lasting happiness, and true insight.

What is most unfortunate, I must add, is that some of us have become deadened to our feelings of compassion.  This can be caused by a number of things.  It can be the constant violent innundations of the television, the hardening of the heart from abusive experiences, or a fear-motivated withdrawal and self-detachment from feeling.  Regardless, this detachment causes us pain, a sort of spiritual anorexia.  With basic human feeling comes compassion, and being without either leaves us feeling very cold, alone, isolated, often paranoid.  Being withdrawn from feeling is often our reaction to fear, a sickness which pervades us all.

This is why I think it's important to extend compassion to those who would harm us, rather than anger and vengence.  After all, if someone would harm us, they have indicated to us a certain degree of detachment from compassion, and therefore must also be suffering on the inside.  This even works on the grand scale.  Can you imagine the misery Hitler must have felt, having been capable of pursuing a genocidal holocaust?  Poor man.  It's this same cold lonliness which motivates materialism, thing-addiction, power-hunger, totalitarianism, etc.  To spit on those who would demonstrate this sickness would be to inject the same sickness into ourselves!  What foolishness!

>> Yet our "true selves" somehow integrate our experiences in this life into itself in the next life?

Yes.  If in irrational anger I were to punch somebody in the face, I would be doing equal injury to my True Self, my deeper self.  I may not be aware of it, but I will be made aware of it's effects as they manifest in my life, like the ache of a bruise.  The way this works is very subtle and pervasive.  Our awareness of this process depends on how deeply buried our True Selves are beneath all the rubbish of fronts, acts, and personality, or how detached we've allowed ourselves to become from feeling.  Birth and Death are not beginnings and ends, only transitions along samsara, the karma-driven wheel of life.

The Buddhist path is to seek that Self by shedding all the unnecessary layers and leading a life of service to the good of others.  In fact, the pursuit of enlightenment itself is an act undertaken to benefit other beings, that the bright and shining example of Buddhahood might stir awakenings in all the suffering people of Earth.  I can't speak for Hindu's and Taoist's, but I imagine they follow much the same line of reasoning.

This is my best and most practical interpreation of the Four Noble Truths .  In Buddhism, these same ideas are expressed much more abstractly, and are meant to cover a much wider range of different people on the other side of the planet during an entirely different era.  If you're interested in a clear-cut explanation of Buddhist ethics tailored for the present day, I encourage you to check out some of The Dalai Lama's books: specifically  The Art of Happiness, and  Ancient Wisdom, Modern World: Ethics for a New Millenium.  The latter is an extraordinary read which has changed my life a few times over.
                   


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: Ped]
    #1909812 - 09/12/03 04:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

WOW!

That is alot to digest. You have obviously spent much time pondering these things.It is an interesting theory.

Thank you very much ped for taking the time to respond so thoroughly to my questions. You are a thoughtful person. Thanks for the links as well.

5 shrooms for you.



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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: Ped]
    #1909841 - 09/12/03 04:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Because that is the nature of this system of belief.  The belief is that all beings are eternal, without beginning or end, and experience themselves and the universe through the sensory organs and biological bits of physical entities. 




.. which are made of energy and were designed for energy to run through them to experience the world. Energy divided so that it can experience itself, heh.

Just expanding on your thought.. :grin:
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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OfflineRastafari
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Re: Flaw in the universal karma law [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1909907 - 09/12/03 04:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

karma can be very difficult and impossible in some cases to comprehend/understand... but we cant escape our actions and I beleive in reincarnation, so good people suffer because of things they have done in the past...

god doesnt want us to suffer though, he/she only has compassion for us and I beleive that even karma is the universes method of compassion, for without it we could not be forgiven of our past actions... people who identify themselfs as "going to hell" continue to make even worse mistakes because they think life is a lost cause... I think all we have is the present and we gotta represent unhesitent. a wise man once said there is no such thing as "Sin" only obstacles we create for ourselfs.

another wise man said Forget your personal history! identify yourself with god!

when I do this I find all of the problems in my mind I grasp onto constantly trickling down into the ground like a rainstick


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I&I


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OfflinePedM
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Universal karma law [Re: Rastafari]
    #1910260 - 09/12/03 05:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Beautiful ideas folks.  I agree with Rasta when he says karma is the universal carrier of compassion.  Karma is indeed, through our sufferings and joys, a gentle teacher who nourishes us with her patience and understanding.

  :heart:    :heart:    :heart:    :heart:    :heart:    :heart:    :heart:    :heart:    :heart:    :heart:   


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