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McKennas philosophy on the nature of time
    #9634351 -

I was about to put this in Mysticism and Paranormal cuz its pretty out there, but i put it here.  McKenna lecture on 2012 and the nature of time.  There is a fine line between shaman insight and schizophrenic.  What do you think?



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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9635313 -

I know this line you are referring to; but with Terence, can we really say it is this same line?

I have never looked into 2012, but for me it remains in the catagory of mushroom hallucinations (shamanism). By that, I do not necessarily mean to marginalize them. In a positive sense, you could call it synchronization, or poetry. But in a negative sense all it is only an indifferent world.

Any philosopher worth his name will toe the line of sanity, but I think this is a very personal thing. How applicable is your question to what we actually know about Terence? If he were wrong, would he deserve to be medicated or institutionalized? Or if he was still alive, do you think it would make him doubt his sanity?

I think based upon the way Terence talks, the question is only whether these hallucinations are credible or not. In this case, if he were wrong, then he would be considered dogmatic in these assumptions.

He or anyone is really only "schizophrenic", inasmuch as he indulges in a hallucinatory reality. This is bullshit. Well, thats what I think at least.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: daytripper23]
    #9636170 -

didn't watch video.

i thought his idea that there are semi-physical units of time, like sub-atomic particles or whatever, is really interesting.

i don't know, seems like something the crazy math people would come up with and start raving about.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9636401 -

McKenna, like the Mayans, was not concerned with his own demise, but in that of bored, young middle class westerners in 2012.

Summation: mushroom visions are not predictive nor does publishing fun books make one a sage.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9636956 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
There is a fine line between shaman insight and schizophrenic.


Centering force >< centrifugal force = transcendence >< dissociation = nirvana >< schizophrenia.

TM may have been way off with his Timewave Zero theory, but he was right on with 'DNA superconduction/implosion via high-dose Tryptamine + beta-Carboline spin-resonant phase-conjugation = key'.

'Stoned Ape' theory could be proven true in the distant future, who knows. :ohwell:

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Middleman]
    #9637013 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
There is a fine line between shaman insight and schizophrenic.


Some people think schizophrenics are seeing into the spirit world, but they have no control over it.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Indigenous]
    #9637595 -

Indigenous said:
Cognitive_Shift said:
There is a fine line between shaman insight and schizophrenic.


Some people think schizophrenics are seeing into the spirit world, but they have no control over it.


Some schizophrenics think schizophrenics are seeing into the spirit world. :wink:

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9637653 -

Exactly. When a shaman can bring a piece of knowledge from the 'shamanic world' (read: imagination) that he could not otherwise know, only then I will believe it to be other than fantasy.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (01/20/09 11:33 AM)

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638463 -

Ah, yes, timewave zero; physics on mushrooms or the benefit of hindsight and all its awesome retrodiction power.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638506 -

His 'stoned ape' theory is interesting, is there any evidense that psilocybin containing mushrooms were there in the environment, let alone apart of our diet.  TM talks about the mind like you don't know its their unless you perturb it.  "Who ever discovered water, it certainly wasn't the fish"  How do you know the mind is there unless you perturb it?  There is a thesis of a book i need to get around to reading called, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.  The authors main thesis is that a breakdown in bicameral mind around 3,000 BC.  In psychology, bicameralism is a hypothesis which argues that the human brain once assumed a state known as a bicameral mind in which cognitive functions are divided between one part of the brain which appears to be "speaking", and a second part which listens and obeys.  The author thinks that humans before this breakdown were clinically schizophrenic, and that the voices that were coming from their mind were thought of as gods telling them what to do.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: deimya]
    #9638748 -

Years ago I thought I had broken the enigma of the stock market utilizing neural networks. I was going to be rich, RICH, RICH! The results were astounding. Then I discovered the concept of back-fitting data. :blush:


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638851 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Exactly. When a shaman can bring a piece of knowledge from the 'shamanic world' (read: imagination) that he could not otherwise know, then I will believe it to all be fantasy.


Mircea Eliade made the distinctions between a mentally ill person and a Shaman quite clear in his book "Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy."


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No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9638881 -

AnxietyDrive said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Exactly. When a shaman can bring a piece of knowledge from the 'shamanic world' (read: imagination) that he could not otherwise know, then I will believe it to all be fantasy.


Mircea Eliade made the distinctions between a mentally ill person and a Shaman quite clear in his book "Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy."


However there is a FINE line between the two.  I haven't read that book, but there is a fine fucking line.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9638892 -

OMG that book was like reading a phone book. I heard there was a lot of controversy around his books.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9639484 -

AnxietyDrive said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Exactly. When a shaman can bring a piece of knowledge from the 'shamanic world' (read: imagination) that he could not otherwise know, then I will believe it to all be fantasy.


Mircea Eliade made the distinctions between a mentally ill person and a Shaman quite clear in his book "Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy."


Could you give us the brief version, or your own thoughts? You might start a new thread, I was going to but I am lazy.

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9640896 -

All that I can tell you is that there have been several seriously suicidal members here that I was aware of. One was 'successful' (Markos and I both saw it coming, but did not know how to reach the member IRL) and two sought help and avoided death. All three sounded nearly identical in their delusions of having found ultimate knowledge and their ramblings on oneness, chakras, kundalini, God, etc.

Here is one such post shortly before his death:

I have had a similar experience during an acid trip,mushroom trip and twice while completely sober. I mean how do describe something like that, i will put three seperate similar experiences here for you guys to look at:

1. Acid trip[: Over a period of 2 hours my chest began to burn intensely: 10 min later vison begin to fragment, and i felt a ball begin to take shape in my solar plexus. by the time i got home i could push this ball over my head at will. nothing really special about this except i completed the meaning of my life every time i did it.

2. Mushroom trip[: ingested an eighth. friends had to pull me outa the car when i got home cause i was so freaked out. all of a sudden when they threw me out of the car , i became a tiny particle in the universe somewhere out in space, this description doesnt justify the feeling at all, i just wanted to share. definetly a feeling of being reborn

3. Sober[: Interestingly enough this was the most powerful out of body experience i have had. i had just finished an hour of meditating and was walking upstairs. immediatly when i looked over at my family in the kitchen the moment just started to peel away, it happened so fast, and then i was hovering in eternity, in a see of colors, blinking through the rainbow spectrum. i started yelling and stumbling around cause i thought i had died. i ran outa the room and a patterned floor rug caught my eye, thats when i lifted outside my head and i realized that time is just a chain of events with absolutely no meaning to them, yet there is a grand structure that is allowing this to take place, an intelligent structure.

" there is a flux of white gravitational light that ascends up the inner column of the earth and "up" into the sky, and it is this light that we are, for we are surely lost in space without it "


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9640933 -

Here is a scary harbinger from the same poster:

Falling upon human limitation as i reach into the sky thinking i can fly. Seems i am born to face death, like a flower i am, beautiful, in continuous change, yet all this beauty can say nothing of death, becoming this giant cause to ponder i am. Who with such brilliance created this intricately patterned vine, so vibrant, a smell so fully alive. In my brilliant moments i too become this pondering,no longer am i in awe and wonder, but in and of itself. as i emerge from the delicate patterning my consciousness is as anew, born again. some day i shall understand this true mystery which continues to elude me through this wheel of desire and through my brief jourenys to enlightenment, only death can be my teacher now. A cause to wonder, a cause to awe and appreciation,when the big day comes i imagine i shall feel very small indeed.

Naturally, alarms went off in my head while all the self-proclaimed mystics applauded and cheered him on.

As always I was the forum 'bad guy'. Fortunately, I was able to step in in the other two cases and did some small part to prevent more tragedy.


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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9640982 -

Well then this begs the question; why hallucinate? What use is there in tripping?

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9641065 -

To clarify,

If you are a mushroom user and not a "shaman", what are you doing? If shamanism is to develop insight based on these hallucinations, or otherwise use them, what is the ordinary mushroom user that is described as a step back from this?

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Re: McKennas philosophy on the nature of time [Re: daytripper23]
    #9641112 -

I cannot answer for anyone else. Pyschedelics are a journey into one's subconscious. There is no external knowledge flowing in from the cosmos. Entertainment, strangeness, creativity, the temporary dropping of barriers - these are a few reasons people trip.

IMO, a shaman has as much power and insight as a modern priest. It is about ritual and psychology and not real magick.


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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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