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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Lion]
    #9442918 -

i am agnostic as well


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'All We Are Saying, Is Give Peace A Chance'

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: brittany_drieci]
    #9443017 -

I guess I'm siding with Pantheist, I sort of view the universe as the all-encompassing 'it', and that God and the Universe are not seperate entities.

Complexity emerges from simplicity, and I believe that the universe and it's laws evolved into the finely tuned habitable universe we have today, either by new universes being born from others, or the same universe constantly refining its own laws in cycles.  Evolution is too beautiful a concept to apply to just terrestrial plants and animals.


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:duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead:

i'm a spy huntin rap dinosaur from the future

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9443315 -

Quote:
DieCommie said: Most humans who believe in god do not believe in the christian god and bible myths.


True, but Christians still rank the highest in terms of number of believers.  33% of the world is of the Christian faith, 19.6% are of the Muslim faith, and 13.4% are of Hindu faith.

This means that a full two thirds of the human population (yes, a majority) believes in some sort of organized religion, complete with the host of historical myths that go along with it, including anthropomorphizing God as being omnibenevolent, having a history of God interfering with mankind at various points, and making God possess other qualities that make it ridiculously easy to show that more evidence points towards the nonexistence of this being.

If you want to define God as the creator of the Universe, and leave at that, that's fine, but recognize that this is a minority position.  There is still an overwhelmingly greater amount of evidence pointing towards the nonexistence of the traditional God; that is, the Gods of Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism, which makes me an atheist over a fence-sitting agnostic.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: deCypher]
    #9443331 -

Organised religion is scary


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:duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead:

i'm a spy huntin rap dinosaur from the future

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: deCypher]
    #9443369 -

deCypher said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: Most humans who believe in god do not believe in the christian god and bible myths.


True, but Christians still rank the highest in terms of number of believers.  33% of the world is of the Christian faith, 19.6% are of the Muslim faith, and 13.4% are of Hindu faith.

This means that a full two thirds of the human population (yes, a majority) believes in some sort of organized religion, complete with the host of historical myths that go along with it, including anthropomorphizing God as being omnibenevolent, having a history of God interfering with mankind at various points, and making God possess other qualities that make it ridiculously easy to show that more evidence points towards the nonexistence of this being.

If you want to define God as the creator of the Universe, and leave at that, that's fine, but recognize that this is a minority position.  There is still an overwhelmingly greater amount of evidence pointing towards the nonexistence of the traditional God; that is, the Gods of Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism, which makes me an atheist over a fence-sitting agnostic.


Where exactly do you get those statistics...
Cause I am calling bullshit.
4/5 of the people on this planet are muslim, which makes 1/5 not muslim.. That 1/5 consists of everything from hindu, judaism, Taoism, Buddahism, Christianity, and many more. Where do you get 33% from?
And to those who say they are agnostic, because they can not prove god doesn't exist. There is no burden of proof until you try to impress said belief on others. You don't have to have proof to believe. Atheists, use logic, rather than this thing called "faith".. Logic isn't proof, just a really good educated way to think. I am more of an Anti-theist myself. I believe that such belief in higher powers, is an emotional crutch, no different from Xanex or klonapin. It represents what I believe to be a continuing degression of the mind. I cannot proove this, but I damn sure used logic to get to this end.


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Shroomism]
    #9443378 -

Quote:
Shroomism said: So you believe what you will, and I'll believe what I will. That's our choice and the freedom we enjoy as sentient human beings. But please don't tell me what to believe or not believe, and I wont tell you what to believe or not believe, because our experiences are different.


I like the spirit, but this is still an illogical position.  Imagine if a Flat-Earther came up to you and said that because we enjoy free will, I should be allowed to hold my belief that the Earth is flat, and you should be allowed to hold your belief that the Earth is round.  Would you agree with him?  Of course not.  Either the Earth is flat, or it is round.  One of us is right, and one of us is wrong--and the same holds true for the question of God's existence.  God can't both exist and not exist; God either exists or God does not exist, and one of us is right while one of us is wrong.

Just as it would be considered folly to let Flat-Earthers teach their kids a flawed theory, or to distribute fallacious propaganda in the educational system, so too should it be considered folly to let false beliefs with respect to religion to be allowed to reign unchecked.

Moreover, the defense that suffering is a form of life experience that allows one to learn is ludicrous.  Are you saying that a baby born into genetic deformity and excruciating agony is simply being allowed to learn and become wiser?  Or that a hurricane that slams into the southern coast and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people is simply a learning process?  C'mon, man.  This only provides justification for evil people to continue their work under the guise that it's helpful for humanity while the rest of us lose out on peace and harmony.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: deCypher]
    #9443382 -

deCypher said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: Most humans who believe in god do not believe in the christian god and bible myths.


True, but Christians still rank the highest in terms of number of believers.  33% of the world is of the Christian faith, 19.6% are of the Muslim faith, and 13.4% are of Hindu faith.

This means that a full two thirds of the human population (yes, a majority) believes in some sort of organized religion, complete with the host of historical myths that go along with it, including anthropomorphizing God as being omnibenevolent, having a history of God interfering with mankind at various points, and making God possess other qualities that make it ridiculously easy to show that more evidence points towards the nonexistence f this being.

If you want to define God as the creator of the Universe, and leave at that, that's fine, but recoognize that this is a minority position.  There is still an overwhelmingly greater amount of evidence pointing towards the nonexistence of the traditional God; that is, the Gods of Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism, which makes me an atheist over a fence-sitting agnostic.


Not all people who identify themselves as christian conform to the orthodox beliefs. Christianity is a pretty vague label, as it doesn't really imply any specific beliefs. Some Christians don't even believe that Jesus was a real person that lived and died on earth.


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The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: flip3084]
    #9443406 -

flip3084 said:
Where exactly do you get those statistics...
Cause I am calling bullshit.
4/5 of the people on this planet are muslim, which makes 1/5 not muslim.. That 1/5 consists of everything from hindu, judaism, Taoism, Buddahism, Christianity, and many more. Where do you get 33% from?


Well, my argument still stands even if four-fifths of the human population is Muslim, but I pulled up a few statistics that I found online from http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

There are only about 1 billion Muslim people on the planet, unless these statistics are out-of-date.  Can you find a more recent statistical spread of religious adherents?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9443409 -

blewmeanie said:
Not all people who identify themselves as christian conform to the orthodox beliefs. Christianity is a pretty vague label, as it doesn't really imply any specific beliefs. Some Christians don't even believe that Jesus was a real person that lived and died on earth.


Sure, but being a Christian still implies belief in Christ the God, which amounts to an equivalently dismissible position based on evidence, IMO.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: deCypher]
    #9443450 -

deCypher said:
blewmeanie said:
Not all people who identify themselves as christian conform to the orthodox beliefs. Christianity is a pretty vague label, as it doesn't really imply any specific beliefs. Some Christians don't even believe that Jesus was a real person that lived and died on earth.


Sure, but being a Christian still implies belief in Christ the God, which amounts to an equivalently dismissible position based on evidence, IMO.


The epistle Paul, who wrote a good deal of the new testement, and is pretty much responsible for the spread of Christianity in the early years, didn't believe that Jesus Christ was someone who existed on earth. He believed that the entirety of the "Jesus story" happened in the celestial realms.


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The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Edited by blewmeanie (12/16/08 12:53 PM)

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: deCypher]
    #9443557 -

deCypher said:
Quote:
Shroomism said: So you believe what you will, and I'll believe what I will. That's our choice and the freedom we enjoy as sentient human beings. But please don't tell me what to believe or not believe, and I wont tell you what to believe or not believe, because our experiences are different.


I like the spirit, but this is still an illogical position.  Imagine if a Flat-Earther came up to you and said that because we enjoy free will, I should be allowed to hold my belief that the Earth is flat, and you should be allowed to hold your belief that the Earth is round.  Would you agree with him?  Of course not.  Either the Earth is flat, or it is round.  One of us is right, and one of us is wrong--and the same holds true for the question of God's existence.  God can't both exist and not exist; God either exists or God does not exist, and one of us is right while one of us is wrong.


Correct. But unlike a Flat-Earth theory, you cannot objectively prove that god does not exist, and I cannot prove that it does. So all we have to go on is belief, and I believe there is enough evidence to warrant the possibility of a Creator. Let us not forget that many past scientific "facts" were dead wrong, a popular one of the past day ironically was the Flat Earth, or how about drilling holes in peoples heads to let the demons out. As new information and insights are gained, new theories form and the old ones are discarded. Evolution being a fact does not nullify the existence of creator, BTW. But the Theory of Evolution, is just that... a theory. Sure, evolution is real.. things evolve constantly. But that we all evolved from parameciums? Not buying it.

Quote:
Moreover, the defense that suffering is a form of life experience that allows one to learn is ludicrous.  Are you saying that a baby born into genetic deformity and excruciating agony is simply being allowed to learn and become wiser?  Or that a hurricane that slams into the southern coast and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people is simply a learning process?  C'mon, man.  This only provides justification for evil people to continue their work under the guise that it's helpful for humanity while the rest of us lose out on peace and harmony.


That is exactly what I am saying. Suffering is indeed a form of learning, and I say that from experience.
There is a distinct difference, however.. in natural disasters/being born with diseases/defects etc.. and a human causing intentional harm to another. I live by the Wiccan Rede/Law of One - And if it harms none, do as ye will. Free will gives us the freedom to choose whatever path we want in life, we should be free to do whatever we please, as long as we are not causing harm to another, that is when a line has been crossed.
But am I saying that birth defects, poor life circumstances, etc are a form of life lessons. Abso-freaking-lutely.
But do I want to help those people? Yes. What you must ask yourself is this.. were these people given poor life circumstances as a direct result of human manipulation of resources, etc? Were said birth defects caused by chemicals in the parents food as a direct result of human acts? These are valid questions.
But I do believe that any and all experiences in life, are lessons in some form or another. Whether you CHOOSE to learn from them or not, is another thing altogether.
Someone may be born with no legs, perhaps that person chose to be born into unfortunate experiences in order to gain certain life lessons, who are we to say otherwise? Do you personally know someone that was born with genetic deformities that has said they have not learned anything valuable by having to live life differently from other people?


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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: deCypher]
    #9443600 -

Ok so I looked up some more on the statistics, and apparently, I mis quoted. here is a link to a site I found. aprox 1.6 billon muslims on the planet, and only around 1 billon christians.

http://www.islamicweb.com/


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Shroomism]
    #9443613 -

Quote:
But that we all evolved from parameciums? Not buying it.



Any reason in particular?


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:duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead: :duckie: :chickenhead:

i'm a spy huntin rap dinosaur from the future

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: flip3084]
    #9443621 -

They probably count the entire population of "Muslim" countries as being Muslim.


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The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9443634 -

Actualy take a look at the site. it sums it up pretty well

Country Name Total Population Muslims Percentage Number of Muslims 
Afghanistan 22,664,136 100% 22,664,136 
Albania 3,249,136 75% 2,436,852 
Algeria 29,183,032 99% 28,891,202 
Angola 10,342,899 25% 2,585,725 
Antigua and Barbuda 65,647 n/a 
Argentina 34,672,997 2 693,460 
Aruba 67,794 5 3,390 
Australia 18,260,863 2.09  382,000 
Azerbaijan 7,676,953 93.4 7,170,274 
Bahrain 590,042 100 590,042 
Benin 5,709,529 15 856,429 
Bangladesh 123,062,800 85 104,603,380 
Bhutan 1,822,625 5 91,131 
Bosnia and Herzegovina 2,656,240 40 1,062,496 
Botswana 1,477,630 5 73,882 
Brazil 162,661,214 0.6 1,000,000 
Brunei 299,939 63 188,962 
Bulgaria 8,612,757 14 1,205,786 
Burkina Faso 10,623,323 50 5,311,662 
Burma 45,975,625 10 4,597,563 
Burundi 5,943,057 20 1,188,611 
Cambodia 10,861,218 1 108,612 
Cameroon 14,261,557 55 7,843,856 
Canada 28,820,671 1.48 400,000 
Central African Republic 3,274,426 55 1,800,934 
Chad 6,976,845 85 5,930,318 
China 1,210,004,956 11 133,100,545 
Christmas Island 813 10 81 
Cocos (Keeling) Island 609 57 347 
Comoros 569,237 86 489,544 
Congo 2,527,841 15 379,176 
Cote d'Ivoire 14,762,445 60 8,857,467 
Croatia 5,004,112 1.2 60,049 
Cyprus 744,609 33 245,721 
Djibouti 427,642 94 401,983 
Egypt 63,575,107 94 59,760,601 
Equatorial Guinea 431,282 25 107,821 
Eritrea 3,427,883 80 2,742,306 
Ethiopia 57,171,662 65 37,161,580 
Fiji 782,381 11 86,062 
France 58,317,450 7 4,082,222 
Gabon 1,172,798 1 11,728 
Gambia 1,204,984 90 1,084,486 
Gaza Strip 923,940 98.7 911,929 
Georgia 5,219,810 11 574,179 
Germany 83,536,115 3.4 2,840,228 
Ghana 17,698,271 30 5,309,481 
Gibraltar 28,765 8 2,301 
Greece 10,538,594 1.5 158,079 
Guinea 7,411,981 95 7,041,382 
Guinea-Bissau 1,151,330 70 805,931 
Guyana 712,091 15 106,814 
Hong Kong 6,305,413 1 63,054 
India 952,107,694 14 133,295,077 
Indonesia 206,611,600 95 196,281,020 
Iran 66,094,264 99 65,433,321 
Iraq 21,422,292 97 20,779,623 
Israel 5,421,995 14 759,079 
Italy 57,460,274 1 574,603 
Japan 125,449,703 1 1,254,497 
Jordan 4,212,152 95 4,001,544 
Kazakstan 16,916,463 51.2 8,661,229 
Kenya 28,176,686 29.5 8,312,122 
Kuwait 1,950,047 89 1,735,542 
Kyrgyzstan 4,529,648 76.1 3,447,062 
Lebanon 3,776,317 70 2,643,422 
Liberia 2,109,789 30 632,937 
Libya 5,445,436 100 5,445,436 
Lesotho 1,970,781 10 197,078 
Macedonia 2,104,035 30 631,211 
Madagascar 13,670,507 20 2,734,101 
Malawi 9,452,844 35 3,308,495 
Malaysia 19,962,893 52 10,380,704 
Maldives 270,758 100 270,758 
Mali 9,653,261 90 8,687,935 
Malta 375,576 14 52,581 
Mauritania 2,336,048 100 2,336,048 
Mauritius 1,140,256 19.5 222,350 
Mayotte 100,838 99 99,830 
Mongolia 2,496,617 4 99,865 
Morocco 29,779,156 98.7 29,392,027 
Mozambique 17,877,927 29 5,184,599 
Namibia 1,677,243 5 83,862 
Nepal 22,094,033 4 883,761 
Netherlands 15,568,034 3 467,041 
Niger 9,113,001 91 8,292,831 
Nigeria 103,912,489 75 77,934,367 
Norway 4,438,547 1.5 66,578
Oman 2,186,548 100 2,186,548 
Pakistan 129,275,660 97 125,397,390 
Panama 2,655,094 4 106,204 
Philippines 74,480,848 14 10,427,319 
Qatar 547,761 100 547,761 
Reunion 679,198 20 135,840 
Romania 21,657,162 20 4,331,432 
Russia 148,178,487 18 26,672,127 
Rwanda 6,853,359 1 68,534 
Saudi Arabia 19,409,058 100 19,409,058 
Senegal 9,092,749 95 8,638,112 
Serbia and Montenegro 10,614,558 19 2,016,766 
Sierra Leone 4,793,121 65 3,115,529 
Singapore 3,396,924 17  577,477 
Slovenia 1,951,443 1 19,514 
Somalia 9,639,151 100 9,639,151 
South Africa 41,743,459 2 834,869 
Sri Lanka 18,553,074 9 1,669,777 
Sudan 31,547,543 85 26,815,412 
Suriname 436,418 25 109,105 
Swaziland 998,730 10 99,873 
Sweden 9,800,000 3.6 320,000
Syria 15,608,648 90 14,047,783 
Tajikistan 5,916,373 85 5,028,917 
Tanzania 29,058,470 65 18,888,006 
Thailand 58,851,357 14 8,239,190 
Togo 4,570,530 55 2,513,792 
Trinidad and Tobago 1,272,385 12 152,686 
Tunisia 9,019,687 98 8,839,293 
Turkey 62,484,478 99.8 62,359,509 
Turkmenistan 4,149,283 87 3,609,876 
Uganda 20,158,176 36 7,256,943 
United Arab Emirates 3,057,337 96 2,935,044 
United Kingdom 58,489,975 2.7 1,579,229 
United States 266,476,278 3.75 9,992,860 
Uzbekistan 23,418,381 88 20,608,175 
West Bank 1,427,741 75 1,070,806 
Western Sahara 222,631 100 222,631 
Yemen 13,483,178 99 13,348,346 
Zaire 46,498,539 10 4,649,854 
Zambia 9,159,072 15 1,373,861 
Zimbabwe 11,271,314 15 1,690,697


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: flip3084]
    #9443684 -

Those numbers are highly inflated.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Shroomism]
    #9443690 -

Quote:
Shroomism said: I believe there is enough evidence to warrant the possibility of a Creator.


I'm curious to hear your evidence.

Quote:
Shroomism said: But that we all evolved from parameciums? Not buying it.


Ditto your reasons for this.  I think the concept that we evolved from self-replicating molecules is an enormously difficult one for people to grasp; we're surrounded by things and events of our own making, so we assume that everything in the world also has to have an intelligent creator--but this is a false assumption.  All it takes is a few billion years to render evolution from amino acids possible.

Quote:
Someone may be born with no legs, perhaps that person chose to be born into unfortunate experiences in order to gain certain life lessons, who are we to say otherwise?


Of course any situation offers learning opportunities.  The point is that it makes more sense to attribute genetic deformities to chance than to an unverifiable assumption about past lives, reincarnation, and gaining certain unfathomable life lessons from pain and suffering.  Moreoever, I would much rather believe in a God-less universe than in an Universe with a God who knowingly permits living creatures to undergo torment and agony.  My paradigm of reality gets along just fine without adding in the additional complexity of a metaphysical being.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: deCypher]
    #9443729 -

I think my biggest problem with god all those years I was a faithful believer was the fact that he obviously had the power to make things better if he was the creator of the universe, so why wouldn't he?

Of course I can only speak from a Christian outlook.


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Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go on an overnight drunk, and in 10 days I'm going to set out to find the shark that ate my friend and destroy it. Anyone who wants to tag along is more than welcome.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: deCypher]
    #9443746 -

To be fair if we're gonna say it's difficult for people to wrap their head around the concept of life as we know it evolving from amino acids then I think we should also consider it's probably impossible for us to understand why an omniscient and omnipotent being does things the way it does.


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!

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: jewunit]
    #9443778 -

Well, they say we were modeled after it, whatever it is... but if I was god I think I'd make my case a little more obvious unless my existence didn't matter anyways. And that's the only thing that would ever get me to acknowledge that there might be a god really. If its existence doesn't mean anything to us during our lifetime or on the occasion of our death because we're just a speck on the universe... I don't know why we argue about it.

I think I've gone cross eyed.


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Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go on an overnight drunk, and in 10 days I'm going to set out to find the shark that ate my friend and destroy it. Anyone who wants to tag along is more than welcome.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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