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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #9442224 -

I AM THAT I AM.


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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Atheist]
    #9442507 -

Atheist said:
well isnt that evidence against his existence?

the fact that there isnt one shred of scientific evidence for a giant beard man in the sky kinda makes ya wonder..



No that most certainly is not evidence against his existence.  An example - we have zero evidence that life exists on other planets and that most certainly is not evidence against extra solar life.

Youre bringing up a bearded man in the sky?  There is plenty of evidence that doest exist.  Thats christian myth, dont confuse christian myth with god - they are not the same.  Christians do not have the monopoly on defining god.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: g00ru]
    #9442540 -

guruu said:
If you define God as a supreme being that created the universe, then I think there's plenty of logical evidence against him.  Can God change his mind? What was the impetus to create the universe? How could a perfect being create a universe with imperfection? etc.


Can god change its mind? I have no idea, how is that relevant?  What was the impetus to create the universe, also no idea.  Perfect being?  Why must god be a perfect being?  Through most of history man has not defined god(s) as a perfect being.  There is no reason to assume god would be perfect or not perfect; regardless why couldn't a perfect being create a universe with imperfection?  I dont even know what that means to attribute 'imperfection' to the universe...

Your asking questions to which there are no answers, thats not atheism thats agnostic.  Also you are begging to the christian idea of god, probably because thats what people around you believe; but that is a provincial and specific definition that has evidence against it.  Most humans who believe in god do not believe in the christian god and bible myths.  When I see people beg to bible myths to support their atheism, I see that as a retreat because they cant substantiate their position in general.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9442541 -

You make too much sense. I like to argue these fallacies, but I don't have the patience. Kudos.

Non-"proof" of God does not = No god. Proof is subjective anyway. And God is a term that is used and abused far too much. Ever look at nature? Ever look at the insane complexity of the human body and how everything works in perfect synchronicity? Ever even begun to fathom the infiniteness of the Universe? I don't credit that all to chance.

I'm not one that believes in creationism/christian ideologies. But I don't think everything came out of a random big bang and we evolved from single celled organisms either in a perfect symbiosis on some random roll of the dice. I believe in Creation, and Evolution. Evolution is the nature of the Universe - to progress and evolve over time, but I do not believe EVERYTHING is a result of that. Is that so hard to believe? We primitive humans are already capable of cloning/messing with DNA/organic thought etc. Is it hard to imagine what we would be capable of as we become more highly evolved? Is it too hard to imagine that just maybe, perhaps there is a higher force at work in this insanely organized Universe, one which we simply do not possess the capabilities to understand yet? When we think we understand something, we call it a science.. when we do not understand.. we laugh and call it myths. Ignorance does not = knowledge.

Until we have explored the Universe in it's entirety, and met every race of intelligent beings in it.. I am not convinced of a non-existence of more highly evolved entities with the ability to create.


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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9442562 -

DieCommie said:
No that most certainly is not evidence against his existence.  An example - we have zero evidence that life exists on other planets and that most certainly is not evidence against extra solar life.



That's not entirely accurate.  Using basic deduction we can conclude that with a given set of data something might exist even though we can't see it.  People knew Uranus was out there long before they "discovered" it.  Check out the Drake Equation about prediction of extra terrestrial life.

You can try and apply the same argument that I've given above to say that god exists too.  But all the data we as humans have collected and all the expiriments that we've run so far doesn't require any sort of god to for it make sense.


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  • When we built temples to view the stars, we knew about all 2000 of them.

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9442573 -

DieCommie said:
guruu said:
If you define God as a supreme being that created the universe, then I think there's plenty of logical evidence against him.  Can God change his mind? What was the impetus to create the universe? How could a perfect being create a universe with imperfection? etc.


Can god change its mind? I have no idea, how is that relevant?  What was the impetus to create the universe, also no idea.  Perfect being?  Why must god be a perfect being?  Through most of history man has not defined god(s) as a perfect being.  There is no reason to assume god would be perfect or not perfect; regardless why couldn't a perfect being create a universe with imperfection?  I dont even know what that means to attribute 'imperfection' to the universe...

Your asking questions to which there are no answers, thats not atheism thats agnostic.  Also you are begging to the christian idea of god, probably because thats what people around you believe; but that is a provincial and specific definition that has evidence against it.  Most humans who believe in god do not believe in the christian god and bible myths.  When I see people beg to bible myths to support their atheism, I see that as a retreat because they cant substantiate their position in general.


fine, how about the fact that there are billions of people suffering..

isnt that evidence against the existence of ANY supreme being/deity that loves us?

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Cameron]
    #9442574 -

Cameron said:
Agnostic makes sense. :thumbup:



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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Atheist]
    #9442584 -

Atheist said:
fine, how about the fact that there are billions of people suffering..

isnt that evidence against the existence of ANY supreme being/deity that loves us?


No.

Ever heard of Free-Will?


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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #9442586 -

OneMoreRobot3021 said:
I am a breath breathing human being.


guruu said:
Now classify yourself!


My favorite part of this whole thread. Thanks guys.

:grin:


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:murray:

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Shroomism]
    #9442587 -

what about the people that are just born into that shit? born to suffer

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Atheist]
    #9442602 -

Atheist said:
fine, how about the fact that there are billions of people suffering..

isnt that evidence against the existence of ANY supreme being/deity that loves us?


I dont think so.  First off, a supreme being/deity may or may not love us - either way is just an assumption (maybe he made the universe, but doesnt even know about us!)  Assuming that god exists and god does love us, whos to say that he can change it?  Historically, god(s) have not been attributed all-powerful omnipotence, they usually have limits on their power.  What you are attributing to god is a christian idea and this is an example of what I mean by retreating into christian myth.  Makes it seem like your atheism is just a reaction against the christian institutions where you live, not a logical conclusion based on the evidence at had (or lack of evidence).

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9442614 -

You, sir, have the fingers of lightening and a reasoning mind to match.


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:murray:

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9442632 -

whatever god is fuckin fake, im glad i dont believe in any of that stupid shit.

imaginary friends FTL

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Atheist]
    #9442637 -

Atheist said:
what about the people that are just born into that shit? born to suffer


Some believers in reincarnation might say that some people choose to be born into tough circumstances in order to gain certain life lessons. Life is a college for the soul after all..

But I think you're focusing too much on the Christian God. Even still, nowhere in the "Bible" does it state that God is to provide an everlasting utopia for all human beings until the end of time. They have their shit all backwards anyway, what kind of unconditional loving god would throw non-believers into a pit of fire and brimstone to suffer for eternity anyway? Yeah, exactly. But just because one religion is completely fucked up, does not moot the point of any god or any supreme being ever existing.

And we are still finding new life on our OWN planet all the time. We don't know shit in the grand scheme of the Universe. I'm not going to take any scientists word of the ASSUMPTION of the non-existence of God, when we can't even live in harmony with our own planet, and wouldn't know unconditional love if it bit us in the ass.


Life is a place to experience life, and learn from said life experiences. Learning equates to knowledge equates to wisdom equates to evolution over time. No one said life was supposed to be perfect. In fact, how the hell would anyone learn anything without strife and challenges to overcome? The origin of the Universe I accredit to, is a follower of Free Will, and that is our greatest gift, the ability to choose our own paths while on this short incarnation on this rock. So you believe what you will, and I'll believe what I will. That's our choice and the freedom we enjoy as sentient human beings. But please don't tell me what to believe or not believe, and I wont tell you what to believe or not believe, because our experiences are different.


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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Shroomism]
    #9442708 -

For me, its simply too difficult to separate the concept of god from other peoples preconceived notions, so I abandon the concept all together. So in one sense, I am atheist, though I certainly do not fall within the traditional American christian definition of an atheist.

I am a practicing buddhist,
failing mathematician,
a student of chabad philosophy,
and a dreamer.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9442736 -

I definitely don't see God in the terms of most pre-conceived notions, some bearded guy in the sky, passing down judgements..  I believe in Aliens... maybe some of them have beards... but that's a different thread..

I believe in the Universe. I believe there are certain LAWS to the Universe, and definite patterns. These laws and patterns are universal and can be seen throughout all of nature. I believe there is a central "order" or force guiding these patterns. I do NOT believe it is some dude. I believe it is a central force, perhaps the center of the Universe. A star perhaps. The Great Central Sun. Endless light... What would we be without light? nothing. Light is love.
All is as it is. There is order, there is chaos, and it balances perfectly.

I don't make any assumptions because I don't KNOW for sure, I am far too stupid to even begin to comprehend such things as the infiniteness of the Universe in all of its glory. But I won't make the mistake of assuming there is no force either. We didn't use to understand gravity, it was some strange unknown force. Hell, we still don't understand it, even though we think we do. We haven't mastered anti-gravity yet now have we. :grin:


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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: Atheist]
    #9442762 -

Atheist said:
what about the people that are just born into that shit? born to suffer


------puts on jew hat------

I think the question is..

If one is to believe that god is capable of anything, then why does he not not provide us the good without the bad?

Maybe god does not want us to know, because if we knew we would consent rather than fighting to save each other.

Perhaps we do not have the perspective necessary to fully evaluate the situation. Like looking at a cone from above, and only seeing a circle.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9442763 -

blewmeanie said:
Perhaps we do not have the perspective necessary to fully evaluate the situation. Like looking at a cone from above, and only seeing a circle.


That's the best way I've heard it put.


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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #9442814 -

im Agnostic

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Re: Agnostic, Theist, Atheist, Polytheist? [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #9442906 -

Definitely agnostic


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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