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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 11 years, 13 days
different paths
    #929486 - 10/03/02 09:35 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

do you think that the mushroom, and other mind-altring substances played a role in the way the indians (and other cultures) lived in harmony with the land, as opposed to europe, where they led a total different style of life?

i think so....that, plus the indains came from asia which had a different philosophy than europe, so perhaps that played a role also..


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineGrowingVines
Slowly Changinginto a Tree
Registered: 08/22/02
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Re: different paths [Re: CleverName]
    #929540 - 10/03/02 10:10 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting subject, the midwestern indians thought when they did Mesciline(sp) that they could talk to there gods. So i could believe that yeah, shrooms helped make the societies different


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Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: different paths [Re: CleverName]
    #933125 - 10/04/02 11:07 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Thats a very good question, and although it may be a factor in the aboriginal's connection with the earth I don't think it was the only thing that connected them as many groups had such connection even though it wasn't part of thier customs to consume hallucinogens. I think connection to nature is, well, natural. We all crave it. But there is often the temptation of power, greed, etc that can tear us from it. I think thats really what got the europeans.


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InvisibleSmack31
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Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 10,680
Re: different paths [Re: CleverName]
    #933135 - 10/04/02 11:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i always felt that it played a big part... they also had other methods of contacting the spirit world, but indeed they were methods that invoke hallucinations.


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OfflinePenguin
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Registered: 02/10/02
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Re: different paths [Re: Smack31]
    #933923 - 10/05/02 06:54 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I believe that firmly. I think that all culture is based upon the experiences of the plants and things that they eat. Think: the first people were hunter and gatherers. They had to know what was safe to eat...so experimentation would have been the best and only way to find out.

I also think Jesus tripped sac and was lying.... :grin:


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The fear of loss is always greater than the desire for gain


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InvisibleCheeba
the shroomyqueen

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 158
Loc: atop my secret mountain
Re: different paths [Re: CleverName]
    #934407 - 10/05/02 01:48 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Our socitey today is SO filled with synthetic prescription drugs...so many peeps hopped up on Valume and other MAOI's...that a majority have lost touch with Mother Earth and God...and even themselves!!!
I believe that its the gov'ts plan to lead us away from original thought and more toward the sheep mentality by illegalizing what grows from Gods green earth!!!


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Carpe Diem <*))))><
Theres one sweet whirld out there!!
Now remember, you are unique! Just like everybody else!


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OfflineLOPHO.MP
looker

Registered: 09/28/02
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Loc: Santa Cruz CA.
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Re: different paths [Re: CleverName]
    #934709 - 10/05/02 04:33 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)


Try to remember when talking about these things that anthing you say is basically a generalization. However I think that in many cases generalizations can help us understand (at least a little) phenomena that are more complex.

Surely there were some Native Americans that did not exactly "live in harmony with the land." It is also known that there were groups of Europeans who DID "live in harmony with the land." The ancient Europeans that preceded the civilizations we hear about were definitely in touch with the earth and it's cycles of life and death.
We can't overlook the old European peoples; The Celts, Picts etc. These civilazations were advanced in medicine and science but they did not try to dominate the land like the later ciciliztions. It is also known that these people used hallucinogenic plants ritually. The surviving practicioners of these old religions would be accused of witchcraft in the later European societies.

It is difficult however to be sure what was the factor that made these societies "live in harmony with the land."
I'm sure the use of hallucinogns COULD be the main factor, most likely however, there were various factors at work.

Unfortunately this is something that might never be proven one way or another. One thing that many of these cultures held in common is they did not leave very much behind that can help us understand how they lived.

Learning about these societies could help modern people what is possible and how we can change.
Great topic of discussion!


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 11 years, 13 days
Re: different paths [Re: LOPHO.MP]
    #934726 - 10/05/02 04:37 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i go by majority. Obviously, we would never really know unless we could go back in time....


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: different paths [Re: CleverName]
    #935999 - 10/06/02 05:05 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The Indians were in no more harmony than anyone else. They attacked neighboring tribes as visciously as any White man. Some tribes used plant poisons to kill the fish in rivers for food. Their numbers were too few to adversely affect the environment. As soon as they had rifles they killed heavily for trade just like the English and French.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
People of the sun.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 8,150
Loc: Cologne, Germany
Re: different paths [Re: Swami]
    #936116 - 10/06/02 09:56 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

maybe that is what you would have done... but i do not agree with you... of course it's not that we are praising all natives and saying they were "oh so good to mother nature"... of course there were tribes among them who did not respect nature all that much...
and anyways... you'r saying "as soon as they had rifles"... and would you explain to me who gave them the rifles? exactly white man did... white man brought hatred into their world, and to be honest there was not much for them to do than "live along"... if they had resisted the constant attacks they would have been eradicated...


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OfflineLOPHO.MP
looker

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 101
Loc: Santa Cruz CA.
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: different paths [Re: In(di)go]
    #936130 - 10/06/02 10:16 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)


I agree with Lozt.
In my post I said that pretty much anything you say on this topic would be a generalization. I still believe that. I also said that surely there were SOME native americans who were not so much in harmony with nature, BUT most of them probably were.

The arrival of Europeans in the New World had an enormous effect on the natives world view. Anything that any Indians did AFTER the arrivall of Europeans can NOT be taken as an action sanctioned by their original world view and religion! If some Indians slaughtered buffalo and other game with rifles it does not mean that this is something that their original religion allowed. In other words anything that the Indians did after contact with whites can not be considered representative of the ideals held by their religions.

Also. I think there is often a tendency to romanticize the culture of Native Americans. It is true their life was not all peace and love and happiness like some people say. Many Native American cultures were extremely violent. However, in general they understood and respected the earth, and caused much less damage to their environment than the later civilizations of Europe. ( When I say this I do not refer to ALL the cultures of Europe but just the larger and later ones of western and northern Europe that we know the most about.)

Great discussion! Keep it up!


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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