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Buddhism
    #9147393 -

"But if there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done or ill done, then here and now in this life I shall be free from hostility, affliction, and anxiety, and I shall live happily. This is the second comfort acquired." -The Buddha

What is this saying?

How does this relate to the Buddhist faith?

How does this relate to the concept of reincarnation and karma?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Icelander]
    #9147534 -

This seems to go against the idea of reincarnation. 'If there is no fruit and the ripening of deeds ill/well done'. To me that basically translates that there are no 'eternal' consequences for your actions. But, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't reincarnation deal with trying to reach an ultimate state of bliss through multiple lives? And with each life well-lived you move 'up the ranks' and with ill-lived lives you are 'demoted'.

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Icelander]
    #9147542 -

Karma, destiny free will etc...are all for the body & mind & you are neither of those, knowing this you are free of anxiety, hosility, affliction etc... the only way to be free of these, to realize that you are already perfect & whole & that anything else is just an idea to keep you on the wheel of rebirth, even that itself is an idea!
Gain/loss, good/bad, evil/holy, start/finish, are ALL in the mind.


There is neither creation nor destruction,
neither destiny nor free will,
neither path nor achievement;
this is the final truth.

- Ramana Maharshi


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Re: Buddhism [Re: Nexion]
    #9147558 -

Nexion said:
This seems to go against the idea of reincarnation. 'If there is no fruit and the ripening of deeds ill/well done'. To me that basically translates that there are no 'eternal' consequences for your actions. But, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't reincarnation deal with trying to reach an ultimate state of bliss through multiple lives? And with each life well-lived you move 'up the ranks' and with ill-lived lives you are 'demoted'.



So take away the concept of reincarnation and karma from Buddhism and wouldn't you have a therapeutic and liberating agnosticism?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Icelander]
    #9147568 -

Yes!

The previous two posts rule.

There is no good or bad, only perception of these things, delusions. Everything is what it is and nothing more, very liberating.

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Nexion]
    #9147576 -

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Buddhism [Re: Icelander]
    #9147616 -

So let me ask you this, do you agree with this?

Do you believe that everything is how it should be, and nothing more? You are 'perfect' and any imperfections you may have are only imperfections in your perception of yourself?

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Nexion]
    #9147706 -

Totally agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Buddhism [Re: Nexion]
    #9147716 -

I know your asking ice but...

What you believe becomes your experience

If you believe you are perfect how you are then you will feel that, if you feel imperfect you will believe a struggle into existence to strive for perfection

Its just like in dreams, if you think about somehthing it becomes your reality, to a certain extent, with time...


--------------------

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Chronic7]
    #9147723 -

Oh I agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Icelander]
    #9147738 -

Do you believe there is a purpose to this experience?

And don't say it is what it is, or at least don't use those words. :grin:

Edited by Nexion (10/28/08 01:38 PM)

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Nexion]
    #9147762 -

Nexion said:
So let me ask you this, do you agree with this?

Do you believe that everything is how it should be, and nothing more? You are 'perfect' and any imperfections you may have are only imperfections in your perception of yourself?



No. You've contradicted yourself in the question here. If there are imperfections in your perception of yourself, which would lead you to believe you are an imperfect being, then you are already thus rendered imperfect by your flawed perception.

Whether or not you are perfect no longer matters, because you don't even have a perfect perception to establish a conclusion.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Nexion]
    #9147765 -

The only purpose i see is the experiences themselves, the achingly beautiful nature of separation & relationship

The one creates all this fractal expression in order to taste itself, only to wake up to see that nothing has been happening at all

That love is so infinite it has nothing to do but ceaselessly create dream & play with itself

Im about to finish work so i think ill end on that sweet note :wink:


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Re: Buddhism [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9147778 -

myriadeyes said:
Nexion said:
So let me ask you this, do you agree with this?

Do you believe that everything is how it should be, and nothing more? You are 'perfect' and any imperfections you may have are only imperfections in your perception of yourself?



No. You've contradicted yourself in the question here. If there are imperfections in your perception of yourself, which would lead you to believe you are an imperfect being, then you are already thus rendered imperfect by your flawed perception.

Whether or not you are perfect no longer matters, because you don't even have a perfect perception to establish a conclusion.



You took my statement the wrong way. When I said 'perfect' I meant without quality, it is what it is so to speak.

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Nexion]
    #9147809 -

Yep I did  :foreheadslap:

I just find it hard to believe that everything "is at it is". If that is the case, the only conclusion I can come to is that that is the purpose, to just "be". I guess that's just never really resonated well with me, seeing "unhappiness", or whatever you want to call it if everything "just is", that runs rampant in this world.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Nexion]
    #9147817 -

Nexion said:
Do you believe there is a purpose to this experience?

And don't say it is what it is, or at least don't use those words. :grin:



Other than subjectively there is no purpose to this experience. Life is just happening. As far as I can tell.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Buddhism [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9147825 -

myriadeyes said:
Yep I did  :foreheadslap:

I guess I just find it hard to believe that we create our own meaning. That's never really resonated well with me.



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9147812/an/0/page/0


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Buddhism [Re: Icelander]
    #9147899 -

it has to do with a more naked vision of what's what,
no cultural orientation required, it is the truest way to be whether you live 100 years or just a few minutes.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Buddhism [Re: Icelander]
    #9150947 -

Icelander said:
"But if there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done or ill done, then here and now in this life I shall be free from hostility, affliction, and anxiety, and I shall live happily. This is the second comfort acquired." -The Buddha
What is this saying?
How does this relate to the Buddhist faith?
How does this relate to the concept of reincarnation and karma?



If you aren't a Buddhist literalist (much like Christian literalists), you don't believe the cosmology to be real, but you understand it as an allegory for the mental life of a human. 

The fruit (actions which contain karmic seeds, or samskaras), and the ripening of actions (the actions you do because of these subconscious impressions, which is to say seeds or samskaras) no longer exist when you learn to stop reacting.  When you are withdrawn from your senses and no longer have to react to every sensory input, then your mind no longer gets hung up on past events, and is free to act without reference to emotions and habitual patterns established by these seeds.  When you aren't reacting, then you choose your actions and emotions.  Of course you don't choose anxieties and anger, thus you have found the second comfort.

It relates to Buddhism because it is a psychology which helps one recognize suffering, the cause of it, and the cure of it.

It relates directly to karma, because that entire paragraph is describing what karma is and what it does.  Again, if not taken in some literal fashion, it talks about reincarnation in reference to moment-to-moment mind states (interestingly, if the Tibetan Book of the Dead is read like this, it makes much more sense).  Consciousness is not continuous, but appears so.  It is a rapid succession of mental formations.  You can obtain the ability to notice "breaks" in consciousness, albeit a seemingly contradictory assertion, but this relates to the idea of establishing yourself as the witness or observer of consciousness. 

So you get punched in the face.  That creates a mental impression.  Days go by, and you see the person who punched you in the face.  That karmic seed ripens and fruits as you get angry and descend into a hell realm.  You then act on your emotion and punch the person in the face, which reinforces and creates new seeds for you and that person, and the chain of karma continues.

Reincarnation refers to the redirection of mind-states from moment to moment, in each discontinuous mind-moment.  The karma of the previous mind moment affects the possible realm of rebirth in the next mind moment. 

The Buddhist cosmology is a map of the mind.  That is how I see it, anyways.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Buddhism [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #9153525 -

jonathanseagull said:
If you aren't a Buddhist literalist (much like Christian literalists), you don't believe the cosmology to be real, but you understand it as an allegory for the mental life of a human. 

The fruit (actions which contain karmic seeds, or samskaras), and the ripening of actions (the actions you do because of these subconscious impressions, which is to say seeds or samskaras) no longer exist when you learn to stop reacting.  When you are withdrawn from your senses and no longer have to react to every sensory input, then your mind no longer gets hung up on past events, and is free to act without reference to emotions and habitual patterns established by these seeds.  When you aren't reacting, then you choose your actions and emotions.  Of course you don't choose anxieties and anger, thus you have found the second comfort.

It relates to Buddhism because it is a psychology which helps one recognize suffering, the cause of it, and the cure of it.

It relates directly to karma, because that entire paragraph is describing what karma is and what it does.  Again, if not taken in some literal fashion, it talks about reincarnation in reference to moment-to-moment mind states (interestingly, if the Tibetan Book of the Dead is read like this, it makes much more sense).  Consciousness is not continuous, but appears so.  It is a rapid succession of mental formations.  You can obtain the ability to notice "breaks" in consciousness, albeit a seemingly contradictory assertion, but this relates to the idea of establishing yourself as the witness or observer of consciousness. 

So you get punched in the face.  That creates a mental impression.  Days go by, and you see the person who punched you in the face.  That karmic seed ripens and fruits as you get angry and descend into a hell realm.  You then act on your emotion and punch the person in the face, which reinforces and creates new seeds for you and that person, and the chain of karma continues.

Reincarnation refers to the redirection of mind-states from moment to moment, in each discontinuous mind-moment.  The karma of the previous mind moment affects the possible realm of rebirth in the next mind moment. 

The Buddhist cosmology is a map of the mind.  That is how I see it, anyways.



:thumbup:


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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