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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: egghead1]
    #4161385 - 05/11/05 09:57 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I like Buddism as a philosophy, at least in it's fullness, it goes well beyond most peoples perceptions of what it's about. But it is just one of many I can get along with.

I find that as a religion it is prone to many of the failings of all the other religions. So I reject it.

I think each and every person is supposed to work out their own salvation, in their own werd way. Especially Doom.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinethe_phoenix
Stranger

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Icelander]
    #4161516 - 05/11/05 10:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for this thread. Very insightful.

I have a few questions.

Why is a guru or teacher necessary? Can't I follow my own path myself? No outside rules, all mine, right? Do as I will is the whole of my law?

On the issue of gods, you say they are mostly the mind's subtle manifestations. But when people break the cycle of samsara, do they not ascend to a spirit existence, to help people of this world? Interaction with them is more than one with our minds' subtle manifestations, no? Does Buddhism truly not believe in the possibility of communicating with a host of different life forms the universe is permeated with on different levels?

I'd appreciate if you can ask your teacher what the sixth negative drug is. :smile: I'm surprised about tobacco, as I thought shamans used it heavily. Can you say anything about this?

How does Buddhism consider reality? The Nameless Tao atop, then the Tao which is often perceived as the interplay of the Yin/Yang? Is the Nameless Tao essentially existence or non-existence, or both? I realize this last point is a matter of how we perceive the Nameless Tao, and even the different schools dispute it I think. But I'm still interested to hear your take on it.

What about shamanism and magic? Does Buddhism advocate refrain from the convention that must be dabbled in and manipulated to experience these paths?

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4161536 - 05/11/05 11:02 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

a teacher might help you understand how
your will and your path can come together in peace
as they are not the same, the will is a tiny thing, and your path is all creation from your interactively changing point of view.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4161601 - 05/11/05 11:25 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

What about shamanism and magic? Does Buddhism advocate refrain from the convention that must be dabbled in and manipulated to experience these paths?

________________________________________________________________

Check out the Bon, pre Buddhist religion of Tibet. Also, I think that some groups of Buddhists use psychedelic drugs on their path.

Good point about tabacco. There are some Shamans who do solely tobacco divination. The Buddhist didn't know about them I guess. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Icelander]
    #4161690 - 05/11/05 12:01 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

if you have a shaman teacher whom you trust implicitly then he is your guru and your path is not complicated by other rules.
I hope this teacher can point out how you find your path naturally and how doing that is distinct from more trivial and artificial issues (melodrama etc.).


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlineegghead1
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Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
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Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: the_phoenix]
    #4161728 - 05/11/05 12:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the_phoenix said:
Thanks for this thread. Very insightful.

I have a few questions.

Why is a guru or teacher necessary? Can't I follow my own path myself? No outside rules, all mine, right? Do as I will is the whole of my law?

In the Vajrayana vehicle, the Gurur is indispensible for pointing out the nature of mind to the student, to enable him/her to practice in a perfect way from the beginning. Ypou can foolow whatever practice you like, its not nessasery to have a guru to practice Buddhism at all.

On the issue of gods, you say they are mostly the mind's subtle manifestations. But when people break the cycle of samsara, do they not ascend to a spirit existence, to help people of this world? Interaction with them is more than one with our minds' subtle manifestations, no? Does Buddhism truly not believe in the possibility of communicating with a host of different life forms the universe is permeated with on different levels?

Gods within Buddhism are considered to be  samsaric beings like us, but they are more powerful and completely distracted by indulgence in temporary pleasures. But if you are referring to deities, within Buddhism they are enlightenend beings, and manifestations of the subtle level of mind. You see withnin a non-dual perspective there is no consideration between subject and object so in a way these being do exist in relation to others, but ultimatley they are nothing more than the pure manifestation of our natural state. Within buddhism there is some consideration given to respecting all beings, seen and unseen, and if your capacity is quite developed, then communication for the purposes of teaching to bring benefit can be possible with beings from other demensions, but rarely is this spoken about if ever practcied officially and if it is so, its only be the highest and most skilled masters of buddhism, as some beings are quite negative and that energy needs to be controlled to some extent.

I'd appreciate if you can ask your teacher what the sixth negative drug is. :smile: I'm surprised about tobacco, as I thought shamans used it heavily. Can you say anything about this?

Shamanisn is different to Buddhism in many ways, access to other demensions is a key focus within shamasism, as is wrestinlg, overpowering and conquering negtaive spirit influences for the benefit of practice and giving relief and benefit to whomever is being disturbed by them. Tobacco as we all know has many many negative effects on the human body, so im not suprised by its cosnideration as negative, as we can all see on the relative level just how horrible the drug can be. I will ask my teacher next time is see him what the sixth is.

How does Buddhism consider reality? The Nameless Tao atop, then the Tao which is often perceived as the interplay of the Yin/Yang? Is the Nameless Tao essentially existence or non-existence, or both? I realize this last point is a matter of how we perceive the Nameless Tao, and even the different schools dispute it I think. But I'm still interested to hear your take on it.

In Buddhism it is geenrally considered that this reliaty is like an illusion, that is perpetuated by karmic actions created through acts based upon ignorance of our natrual considition which is all pervading emptiness which is pregant with the infitie potential for manifestation. Nirvana is seen as the end of suffering, the end of ignorance, it manifests from clearly seeing into the nature of the mind and all phenomena.

What about shamanism and magic? Does Buddhism advocate refrain from the convention that must be dabbled in and manipulated to experience these paths?

Before Buddhism, in Tibet there was a deeply rooted Shamanic traditon called Bon. it still exists today although it has been greatly influenced by Buddhism almost to the extent of becomming just another means to the same ends. there were two main sects in Bon, the White Bon and the Black Bon. The white Bon was the medical and beneficial side to it, where respecting ones envoronment, makingm offerings to local beings to keep the peace, and communciation directly with the beigns who controlle the elements, for the benefit of growing crops and protection whilst crossing vast stretches of the Tibtan Country. The Black Bon was mostly associated with black magic, catsing speels of misfortune and whatnot, to get revenge against enemies, communciating with negative energies and contorlling them for ones own benefit. The main Bon around nopw is the Eternal Bon traidion, which has many similarities to Buddhism. When Gurru Padmasambhava came to Tibet to introduce Buddhism, there was alot of resistence and influences form negatvie spiritus trying to prevent its introduction, Gurru Padmasmabhava's power was such that he taught and subjected these beings, who eixts even today as Dharma protectors within Buddhism who help protect the teaching and the practitioners. In Buddhism, refrain from the negative energy plants that i posted before is advisory, as they block ones progress, due to their negative influence over the indivudal. With reagrd to maigc, magic rites are most common within Vajrayana , and there are many rites associated with,health,  long-life, protection, purifiying the elements, dealing with negative distrubances, ghost busting :lol: and many many others. It is said that many great masters could walk through mountains, fly through the air, walk on water, and many other such feats, due to there stable realization of emptiness. Buddhsim does not promote such feats, they are just the natural effect of realization and not the main point at all.





--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (05/11/05 01:01 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: egghead1]
    #4161747 - 05/11/05 12:18 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Also, I think that some groups of Buddhists use psychedelic drugs on their path.
________________________________________________________

Isn't that true egghead?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinethe_phoenix
Stranger

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 541
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: egghead1]
    #4161763 - 05/11/05 12:22 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you for that, to all who replied.

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Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Icelander]
    #4161865 - 05/11/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Also, I think that some groups of Buddhists use psychedelic drugs on their path.
________________________________________________________

Isn't that true egghead?




Im not sure about groups, bu i would be interested if you could provide a link. I know a few individual Buddhist practioners (including myself) who choose to use Mushrooms occasionaly as well as peyote, but ive never heard of any Buddhist group doing them inclusively of thier spiritual practice, perhaps you can poiitn me in the direction of that group.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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OfflineDoom
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Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: egghead1]
    #4161875 - 05/11/05 01:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

hmm, buddhists consuming chemicals to give them supercharged sensory experience...

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Doom]
    #4161889 - 05/11/05 01:08 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Buddhists taking magic mushrooms to help disolve the layers of conditioning is a more likely assumption.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: egghead1]
    #4161892 - 05/11/05 01:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I will PM you, with info.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: egghead1]
    #4161897 - 05/11/05 01:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Right! :heart: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Icelander]
    #4161900 - 05/11/05 01:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
salvation, in their own werd way. Especially Doom.  :mushroom2:




My upbringing contained basically, zero christian content, so the idea of salvation doesnt really factor into my psychic architecture. But I guess you could say my salvation lies in the elevation of me and my crew.

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OfflineDoom
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Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: egghead1]
    #4161909 - 05/11/05 01:11 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

egghead1 said:
Buddhists taking magic mushrooms to help disolve the layers of conditioning is a more likely assumption.




the conditioning brought on by the endless repitition of mantras? or are these -new born- buddhists who grew up in the suburbs?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Doom]
    #4161918 - 05/11/05 01:14 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Doom said:
Quote:

egghead1 said:
Buddhists taking magic mushrooms to help disolve the layers of conditioning is a more likely assumption.




the conditioning brought on by the endless repitition of mantras? or are these -new born- buddhists who grew up in the suburbs?




Maybe all conditioning.  And what the fuck does it matter where they come from. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Icelander]
    #4161926 - 05/11/05 01:17 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

because where a person comes from details what kind of conditioning they have endured.

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Icelander]
    #4161940 - 05/11/05 01:20 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Mantra has many functions, none of which is to condition the mind, all of which are related to disolving the layers of conditioning. I don't know why i even bother replying to your posts sometimes. :rolleyes:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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OfflineDoom
Rogue

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 365
Loc: ghost-train city
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: egghead1]
    #4161947 - 05/11/05 01:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

you reply, but you avoid the issue, what conditioning are buddhists trying to dissolve?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Buddhism Overview to correct Misunderstandings [Re: Doom]
    #4161948 - 05/11/05 01:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Doom said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
salvation, in their own werd way. Especially Doom.  :mushroom2:




My upbringing contained basically, zero christian content, so the idea of salvation doesnt really factor into my psychic architecture. But I guess you could say my salvation lies in the elevation of me and my crew.


I wasn't talking about christian salvation. And for you and yer crew. Good luck with all that. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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