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Invisiblepupil
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buddhism for dummies (me)
    #3831301 - 02/25/05 02:45 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i'm not afraid to admit, i'm a "dummie" when it comes to spirituality and /or philosophy, but that's why i'm here as your dilated pupil. i got into this message board cause i figured that out of all the smart/artistic people on the internet, people that take mind expanding drugs must be either the smarted most creative people there are, or the dumbest most unmotivated people there are (or i guess there's probably a little of both, although i'm sure the dumbest guy here knows more than me). anyway, i'm rambling. the reason for this thread is,

i saw in another thread somebody talking about how buddhism has three basic principles, something along the lines of:

1. life has suffering
2. you learn the cause of the suffering
3. you fix the suffering

i'm just paraphrasing what i remember someone else said in this forum, but i've had some friends who were into buddhism, or who knew about buddhism, and they said pretty much the same thing. i don't want this to come out the wrong way but, these three things sound more like a coping stradegy- the kind that a psychiatrist might recommend- rather than a doctrinal belief like most of the other religions have (judiasm, christianity, islam, hindu). i'm not saying i have a problem with that, but i'm just wondering if someonen can educate me on what buddhism really is. i know that it's gotta be more complicated than just those three things...

-thanks
your pupil


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: pupil]
    #3831552 - 02/25/05 04:21 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"but that's why i'm here as your dilated pupil"

ha ha ha, now you can never user thatt line again with the same effect :smile:

but if balance is anything in budhism, then much AND little can be said for being both original AND repetitive


Edited by Mitchnast (02/25/05 04:28 AM)


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: pupil]
    #3831595 - 02/25/05 04:42 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Look here

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post3782558

This might clear things up a little.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: Sinbad]
    #3832388 - 02/25/05 12:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

well, the fourth noble truth is that there is a way to end the "clinging" that causes "suffering" (i.e. the eightfold path of the buddha - like a wagon wheel with 8 spokes...)

www.tricycle.com
www.buddhanet.net


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: gnrm23]
    #3832395 - 02/25/05 12:17 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

#4 i.e. step outside of the Attitude loop during meditation see things as they are as well


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OfflinePed
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: pupil]
    #3832429 - 02/25/05 12:29 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Well, it's not all that complicated.  I'm not surprised that it appears as a coping strategy to you.  It appeared to me that way at first, because so much religion is adopted as a means of coping with -- rather than uprooting -- feelings of dissatisfaction with life.  Even my own tendencies to cope with suffering rather than address it once caused me to question the validity of Buddha's teachings.

Buddhism is not interested in coping with suffering, or in making suffering more managable.  Buddhism is interested in uprooting the cause of suffering so that suffering can be ended.  Buddha taught that the cause of suffering is ignorance, and that the deepest form of ignorance is the idea that the self exists independently.  Once we have come to believe that our self exists independently as an island of conciousness, we give in to the idea that our self is of paramount importance over others.  When you boil it down, Buddha taught that the root of suffering is self-centredness.  Through practicing Buddha's teachings and advice, self-centredness is reduced and the potential arises for realizing the transient, illusive nature of things, including and especially the self.  Upon that realization, ignorance is dispelled, suffering is halted, and liberation is attained.

All living beings wish to be happy and to avoid suffering, but very few living beings know how to accomplish this.  As a result of their ignorance, human beings do many misguided things in pusuit of happiness, only to end up suffering more and more.  Buddha taught both the wisdom and method necessary to dispell ignorance so that this most basic human wish for happiness and freedom can be fulfilled.

If you have any more questions, I'd love the opportunity to address them for you.  I'm not an authority on Buddhist philosophy, so if you stump me I'll point you to someone who is!  :heart:


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: Ped]
    #3832760 - 02/25/05 01:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Nice reply PED!

I want to add an analogy example for the layman to understand the basic principle at play here

Coping would be like taking aspirin for a head ache. If you don't remove the cause, the head ache may come back when the aspirin wears off. Remove the cause of the head ache, say its tension, and there is nothing to cope with any more.

Of course, you have to get to the cause of the tension if that is the case. You have to look at what is being tightly held on to by yourself and let go of it. As the mental or emotional grip relaxes so will the muscle tension.

Typically, if the source of tension is say from feeling overwhelmed by to many things to do , the gripping beliefs would be "there isn't enough time" "I can't manage it all" "I will never finish on time" "I will be seen as a failure" "I'm missing my favorite TV show" etc.

The idea is that the source of the tension headache suffering is not coming from the overwhelming things to do list. It is coming from how that list is being perceived. The list is benign.

That person is perceiving a situation that needs to be coped with and they can't without the Tylenol and muscle relaxers to get them through it.

The next time a large list of things to do comes up , the cycle will repeat. Buddhism is about breaking the cycles of suffering by letting go of attachments.

In the above case, the attachments are to the beliefs, one being that there is even a situation that is beyond ones ability to cope or manage with ease.

Another person can be given the same list of things to do in the same time frame and have no concerns about it. They proceed one task at a time until completion without entertaining extraneous thoughts beyond the moment at hand to become attached to and worry and fear within, hence the suffering.

For that person, there was plenty of time, the tasks were completed in ease and comfort and the idea of a situation that needed coping with NEVER EVEN EXISTED for that person.

A Buddhist mindset would not even entertain the existence of a situation that required coping. Coping with what, they would ask and tell you its all in your mind as it was shown to be.

Christianity would tell you that the devil tempted you into wanting the material and social gain creating the large list in little time. The source of the suffering is the in your greed and desires to have all those things. Christianity would teach for you to let go of your greed for material accomplishment and success and then the devil can't be invited in as your task master making you its slave.

I prescribed to a different life philosophy taking from Buddhism.

In my world, I can have ideas and ideals and I can set out to create them for no other purpose then to experience my creative beingness. No greed or need for gain involved as it is about the creative experience itself. By attaching no beliefs to the experience, outcome or results, and being free from expectations, I am free from suffering.

To take it further, I do not view ownership of my creations in a way that I become attached to them. If I loose them, so what? It was never about the creations, it was about the creating itself and what I learned in the process.

All religions including Buddhism seem to have issues with the material world being the source of suffering. I say that's not so. I say you can have a wealth of material abundance and not be in suffering because the source of the suffering is in the perception of their value to you and your attachments to the value.

Something to remember helps. We don't take our things and titles with us when we die. There are all going to be lost to you anyway someday so realize that now. If there is an afterlife, we will all be hovering there stripped of everything so you might as well see yourself and everyone that way now too.

That's what makes all of this an illusion. If you think you have something real to hold onto, realize all it is is smoke in the end. You can free yourself now and then enjoy heaven on earth.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflinePed
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3832907 - 02/25/05 02:11 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

>> All religions including Buddhism seem to have issues with the material world being the source of suffering. I say that's not so. I say you can have a wealth of material abundance and not be in suffering because the source of the suffering is in the perception of their value to you and your attachments to the value.

I'm not sure if it's the material world which these religions believe to be near the root of suffering, or if it's the attachment we have to the material world that is seen as so fundamentally problematic. This goes along the same lines of what you're saying, that a person can surrounded by luxury and opulence and still not suffer because they do not have the perception that they or their posessions are important.

We need to take into consideration, I think, the tendency people have for becoming attached to themselves and their possessions. The more we are surrounded by wealth and abundance, the more likely we are to fall victim to bedazzlement: the more time we spend in an environment where there is much emphasis on self and possessions, the more we will come to reflect that attitude. Consequently, if we are a selfless person suddenly surrounded by riches; chances are that without an exceptionally guarded and well-trained mind we will become hypnotized by our new-found wealth and eventually give in to the self-oriented views that so typically come with it.

Two Biblical verses come to mind.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24
"The gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it." Matthew 7:14

The most important point to be derrived from these two verses, I think, is that it is very difficult to find the right path into liberation, and that those who are rich will find it even more difficult because it is difficult for the rich not to trust in their riches. One need not be a millionaire to allow riches to come between themselves and the divine, however. Any kind of attachment to material things, either through longing or through possessing, pulls us away from God and binds us in samsara.

On a side note, I want to mention something about the first verse I quoted, Matthew 19:24, about the camel and the needle. I was asking myself "If this verse is so widely known, why do so many people continue to fall victim to the attitudes it warns against?" I think the answer is to be found in another question: "Why is that verse so popular?" It's so popular, I think, because it gives the lower and middle classes a reason not to be so burdened by envy for the rich. "They might have their riches," they might say, "but they'll never get into the Kingdom of Heaven." It's sad and unfortunate, I think, that such an important lesson has been adopted to help ease the burden of suffering instead of illuminating the path away from it.


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Edited by Ped (02/25/05 02:22 PM)


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3833380 - 02/25/05 04:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Yay Jiggy! As usual, you're flowing with well-worded explanations.

My favorite parts being these:

Quote:


All religions including Buddhism seem to have issues with the material world being the source of suffering. I say that's not so. I say you can have a wealth of material abundance and not be in suffering because the source of the suffering is in the perception of their value to you and your attachments to the value.

Something to remember helps. We don't take our things and titles with us when we die. There are all going to be lost to you anyway someday so realize that now. If there is an afterlife, we will all be hovering there stripped of everything so you might as well see yourself and everyone that way now too.
That's what makes all of this an illusion. If you think you have something real to hold onto, realize all it is is smoke in the end. You can free yourself now and then enjoy heaven on earth.





P.S. To the original poster: Ped and Jiggy know what's up.. listen well. :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3833448 - 02/25/05 04:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i would also far more appreciate having too much wealth than always having to think twice about financial choices.
but the rule seems to apply to most who do get rich:
"extreme yuckiness sets in."


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OfflineGomp
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3833766 - 02/25/05 06:28 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

far more


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Disclaimer!?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3834056 - 02/25/05 07:29 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

of course that's the typical case Red because they go into the creation of material and social wealth with greed, associations, expectations and the forming of attachments.

Now what if you are aware of how all of this works. You have it down inside and out, its all smoke in the end and can see it for the smoke it is now. I think its doable, I am doing it. Sure I have an occasional day where I notice I don't feel to good and I know how to find the cause and remove it.

For example, hurricanes had Florida under the gun last fall. I looked around at my beautiful home, pictured it wrecked and fell into the helpless yucks. Then I remembered the wisdom I shared in the above and pulled myself out of the yucks FAST and EASY. By the end of that day, I had my home disappeared, took everything away from myself any attachment that snuck in was dissolved and had myself okay with that. I brought myself to the place of after death, where none of it means anything or matters. Then come what may, I wasn't going to be in suffering because I was again nothing no more or less with nothing to loose.

To shy away from experiencing your creative abilities because you fear suffering I think is not necessary and I have been proving it to myself. It's just a matter of getting the ducks aligned and some occasional reminders as the abundance grows.

Sometimes, I do random attachment checks and scan through my life removing everything one by one and see how I feel with it gone. If something hurts at the thought, then I know, I let an attachment start to grow and I dissolve it.

How easy to move to a cave and say you live in detachment and do not suffer. Why bother being here. Create an abundance of material and social wealth, with the creative experience for growth being the prize and be able to say you also live in detachment and do not suffer.  Now there's a challenge I have taken on for my souls growth.

The thing to remember is that any material or social gain that comes from creative endeavors is just a side effect of what we are in life for and I say, its for the creative experience itself which we grow in self knowing and understanding from.

Bare in mind, I'm an envelope pusher in this life! I am out to break the old rules, like, the one you mentioned at the end of your last reply. :wink:

What I can pull off and make work for me may land someone else in the shitz. The thing is, with my attitude, I could be in what might be the shitz for another and not even consider or experience it as such. Its all smoke and what we make of it. :yesnod:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (02/25/05 07:33 PM)


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Invisibleninjapixie
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3834400 - 02/25/05 09:04 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Most westerners who take up buddhism are of the rich, upper/middle class, above average intelligence kind.

Buddha was a rich prince who gave up his wealth knowing if something went wrong he could always call upon daddy to top up his visa card.


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Put that monkey back in the oven.


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OfflinePed
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: ninjapixie]
    #3834599 - 02/25/05 09:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

>> Buddha was a rich prince who gave up his wealth knowing if something went wrong he could always call upon daddy to top up his visa card.

?


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: Ped]
    #3834764 - 02/25/05 10:33 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblepupil
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3834803 - 02/25/05 10:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

WOW! thanks for all the info. i've got my work cut out for me to read all this info. buddhism seems pretty interesting to me, i'd like to study it. in fact, i'd like to study all the world's religions as well as the great philosophers. i wish i could know everything... (sigh)


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: Sinbad]
    #3834896 - 02/25/05 11:22 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Look here

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post3782558

This might clear things up a little.




I knew it would be a thread sinbad started


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OfflinePed
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3835089 - 02/26/05 12:16 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I understand the story of Buddha. What I don't understand is the quip about the Visa card.


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Invisiblepupil
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: Ped]
    #3835364 - 02/26/05 01:30 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

so, what is the story of Buddha anyways? that's another thing that seems to seperate buddhism from other western religions- the fact that western religions are really eager to tell their history whereas buddhists don't seem to be as concerned with their own history. is there a reason for that? and what is the story of Buddha?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: buddhism for dummies (me) [Re: pupil] * 1
    #3835443 - 02/26/05 02:01 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

there is a culture and a teaching, and the culture does revel in the history and stories of the buddha.
the teachings - particularly of the middle way and meditation - have application outside of the culture.

BTW how come your eye diagrams show cones of light into the pupils instead of inversions of light through the lensed opennings - the physics seems wrong. still cute to look at.


Edited by redgreenvines (02/26/05 02:01 AM)


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