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Offlinezhenka11230
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Registered: 12/06/07
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Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion.
    #7724175 - 12/06/07 12:15 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Hello fellow thinkers,

I found Christianity/New Age to be finally fading away under the influence of rational thought and scientific evidence, but there is one little thorn of insanity stuck in the world that is often mistaken to be our ally, often being equated to atheism and ration, namely -- Buddhism.

In this essay I would like to attack this notion and reveal Buddhism for what it really is -- Culturally constructed religion of beliefs and not "truth" based on ration or evidence.

Buddhism appeals to many Americans as it promises what most lack - Happiness and contempt. In our society it is just another business of the "happiness industry" abused so much by marketing schemes. We have a number of depressed and unsatisfied individuals and the promise of happiness is hard to resist in the face of all the smiling faces you see on the pictures of gurus and especially the compassionate look of Dali Lama that seem to be empirical evidence that Buddhism does in fact work. The pictures seem to talk for themselves but as I will go into it later in my essay, looks can be deceiving.

We are bombarded with adds saying "you are not happy because you lack X product and by getting it you will be accepted by society and be happy". While Buddhism seems to attack this idea directly and promote simplicity of living and Letting Go to whatever condition, it nevertheless uses the same psychological scheme to trick people in. (perhaps without realizing it.) Buddhism will make you happy they say; the magical cure is to practice the 8fold path and meditate daily (and of course number of other things).

Now before I make my next claim I would like to talk about a simple fact of human cognition, namely the idea that we often “appeal to nobler motives” instead of the truth for why certain thing happened or our real motives behind our actions or how we feel. The best way to understand it is through examples, for instance instead of admitting to failing the class because we were lazy or lacked the intelligence we often appeal to another reason like saying that the teacher was unfair or the class was stupid or anything of that nature – we blame it on someone else or make a complete bullshit excuse to diminish the blow to our ego, because had we accepted the truth, the blow would be much more drastic. Or for example people who do not have sex very often would rather say that they just don’t care about it rather then saying that they can’t get it. Or people who do not understand a certain philosopher would rather say that he is completely illogical rather then admitting the fact that they simply do not understand and the real reason might be their lack of knowledge or intelligence.

Now assuming you got the jest of, it I will make a highly controversial claim and I will say it bluntly – Buddhism is “appeal to nobler motives” in case depression, unsatisfaction, body image problems or practically any other psychological disorder that would make one want to believe the first noble truth – Life IS Suffering and the idea that one need to realize that his own ego doesn’t really exist and that one needs to reach enlightenment which is ceasing to be completely and escaping the wheel of rebirth. As Nietzsche often said that we cannot separate philosophy from those who follow it, there are always reasons for why they follow this one and not the other. Think about it, if you have body image problem, you would love to believe the whole ego thing where people claim it can be gotten rid of and would cure their suffering. The promise lures them in and instead of admitting their pathology they start saying that anyone who has healthy egos are suffering and ignorant to Buddhist truth(complete delusion) and somehow label them as “bad” and him/her self as “good”, which is exactly why Nietzsche would call Slave Morality or I just call Jealousy inspired morality. In a case of depression one would love to believe that it is not pathology but “a realization of the first noble truth!”; the contrast being something like being considered blessed as opposed to sick.

Buddhism can also be thought of Nihilism in disguise of Spirituality or simply what Nietzsche criticized so much as “the other worldly philosophy”, meaning a philosophy that creates aversion to this world, this self, the way things are and instead putting all the focus on a goal outside of it. Of course you can claim it is not so but I think beyond the superficial beliefs Buddhism is exactly that – an escapism in disguise as evident in almost all the “teachings” given by its masters.

Now to go back to the Happy Faces on the pictures I offer the following examples. Look at the faces of some deluded Christians when they pray or are “possessed by holy spirit”. They are deluded as delusion can be and yet they are smiling. Now the reason why they smile is simply – they are told to smile. They act as if they are happy like all those fake smiles you see in America that is considered to be part of our culture. They are conditioned to present themselves as happy and they lie that they are happy but inside they have the hardest conflicts and turmoil that anyone imagine. In a case of Christians it is turmoils of guild, doubt and resisting sinful thoughts, in a case of Buddhists it is turmoil of trying to reach and impossible ideal of loss of ego, enlightenment and karma and the similar “deluded” states of mind such as anger. Now it is possible that some Buddhists are happy but the happiness is from successful escapism that they have in monastery isolated from any problems a person integrated in society might have like job, children and so on. Of course if you sit for days at a time doing nothing but breathing, you have not much to worry about but what kind of pussy existence is that? But of course they will not admit that they escaped the world, they will say they did it out of some kind of spiritual awakening which I will argue is simply depression.

Now why I said that Buddhism is not ally of reason is because it holds a number of beliefs claimed to be truth but are in fact having zero evidence. Of course they never say that it is complete bullshit – they will just say that you have to find out for yourself by meditating and or brainwashing yourself to their philosophy every day. They will say things like Buddha was enlightened and he knew the truth so basically the only evidence you have is someone word for it. Of course there are a number of people that I don’t argue probably came to feeling the same was as Buddha and claimed to be enlightened but I think it is just a delusion or error in brain cognition after years of conditioning. In fact Buddhism is very anti reason, especially in Zen as evident in their teachings like “it is the mind before the question.”

Having said all that I will confess that I myself is a former Buddhist with a few years of extensive experience including meditation practice and meeting very known people following the philosophy. Buddhism has to offer a lot of interesting ideas and wisdom but nothing worth going through piles and piles of bullshit, cultural baggage or something you will not get from a few western existentialist philosophers like Nietzsche or Sarte. In fact I learned MUCH more from them and my quality of life was improved greatly which I cannot say Buddhism did that much.

Basically let me save you some time. Meditating will not get you anything but mild relaxation and detachment from the world, which can be achieved much more efficiently by smoking pot or taking a hot bath. Buddhism is not the noble truth discovered by some lunatic but rather it is just another philosophy based on escapism and people unable to deal with life. Buddhism is not your road to happiness or self realization or even inner change. Masters will teach you how to tame “negative” emotions but they themselves suffer from them as much as you; ask them yourself they will tell you. The ideals Buddhism builds is against our biological nature and is impossible.

I hope this essay will save some years of bullshit, suffering and in the end realizing as many do today that Buddhism is just another Fad in our society.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724204 - 12/06/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry I couldn't make it all the way through your post (I'm old and don't have much time left).

I'll make a guess that I disagree to an extent. The Buddha's discoveries are sound psychology IMO. The rest that came after is what you are talking about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7724221 - 12/06/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Sorry I couldn't make it all the way through your post (I'm old and don't have much time left).

I'll make a guess that I disagree to an extent. The Buddha's discoveries are sound psychology IMO. The rest that came after is what you are talking about.




:smile: :mushroom2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineLion
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724229 - 12/06/07 12:24 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

While Buddhism seems to attack this idea directly and promote simplicity of living and Letting Go to whatever condition, it nevertheless uses the same psychological scheme to trick people in. (perhaps without realizing it.)


man, i hope buddhism wakes up and realizes what it's doing


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Offlineastronaut
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724259 - 12/06/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I disagree. The thing is that Buddhism embraces complete transcendence. Unlike other religions, in Buddhism it is believed that as you approach enlightenment, the inherent untruth of the teachings that got you there are revealed; orthodox Buddhism is one path to enlightenment, but just like all of the others, it is riddled with false truths and irrationality.

Will being compassionate truly make you "better", or will running beads through your fingers better the karma of others? No, of course not. In fact, there's no such thing as karma; it's a paradigm through which one can glimpse enlightenment, but ultimately it's nothing more than the artificial invention of some robe-clad monks. But entering trance states and submitting your ego to the whole and realizing are among the most powerful steps that you can take towards enlightenment, because that's what enlightenment is ultimately about: dissolution of the ego.

There's a phrase in Mahayana Buddhism that summarizes this:
"Gone, gone, gone beyond; gone all-together beyond".

You don't even need to subscribe to the Buddhist faith to attain what the Buddhists know as enlightenment. Enlightenment is a state of mind, and I, an uncompromising "bottomless" nihilist who once found nothing but fault in the Buddhist faith, am certain that it's just as real as any other state of mind -- because I caught a glimpse of it through my nihilism.

edit - In fact, I'd go so far as to call enlightenment nothing more than a state of ecstatic nihilism: the self is irrelevant, the physical world is irrelevant, and ultimately, the collective is irrelevant and there's nothing beyond the physical world; this is a manifestation of true serenity and beauty. Coming to terms with and then finding ultimate beauty in meaninglessness = enlightenment.

Edited by astronaut (12/06/07 12:33 PM)

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724266 - 12/06/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Very good post! :thumbup:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724344 - 12/06/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Oh man.  The Buddha's going to send you to hell for this. :nono:

Oh, wait... :crazy:


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Offlinenotapillow
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7724404 - 12/06/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

dont take to heart the "ism" take to heart all hearts
:fairy:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724531 - 12/06/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

BTW, I'd like to address this comment:
Quote:

Meditating will not get you anything but mild relaxation and detachment from the world, which can be achieved much more efficiently by smoking pot or taking a hot bath.



I'm sorry, but this is not what meditation is about. The goal of meditation is not relaxation, but rather mental discipline. Someone with years of experience and practice at meditation will have much greater control over their brain functions, including their emotions(thus allowing for greater happiness).


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7724549 - 12/06/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
BTW, I'd like to address this comment:
Quote:

Meditating will not get you anything but mild relaxation and detachment from the world, which can be achieved much more efficiently by smoking pot or taking a hot bath.



I'm sorry, but this is not what meditation is about. The goal of meditation is not relaxation, but rather mental discipline. Someone with years of experience and practice at meditation will have much greater control over their brain functions, including their emotions(thus allowing for greater happiness).




It should be noted that this is backed by neurological research.

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Offlinezhenka11230
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7724561 - 12/06/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I've yet to see research that was not made by the mind institute or any other institution which would be expected to have heavy biasm towards Buddhism. I would love links to legitimate research and if you could post some i would be grateful.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724585 - 12/06/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

biasm towards Buddhism.

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724616 - 12/06/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Here's were I see Buddhism is a healthy psychology. The Buddha said, if I remember correctly. Attachment is suffering. Not desiring or wanting or preferring but attachment to the things we desire, want or prefer. This is basically the same as Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy from Albert Ellis but goes even further back to the Roman philosopher Epictetus. This is a pretty healthy philosophy/psychology to live by. The Buddhists that followed, same as the followers of most religions turned it into something of a joke or as a way to gain power and control people.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinenotapillow
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724621 - 12/06/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zhenka11230 said:
I've yet to see research that was not made by the mind institute or any other institution which would be expected to have heavy biasm towards Buddhism. I would love links to legitimate research and if you could post some i would be grateful.



you have not looked then
there have been all mannor of expereiments conducted on monks brains.

just saw somthing about one test in particular on the natinal geographic channal like 2 days ago.


meditaion only works if you...do it...and dont stop thinking "damn maybe i should just smoke some pot, that would be easier"


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Offlinezhenka11230
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: notapillow]
    #7724647 - 12/06/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I did meditation for over a year, i am just honest about my results - it didn't do squad.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724655 - 12/06/07 01:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I took karate for over a year, and Aikido for another year, but I still wouldn't like my chances in a street brawl.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724671 - 12/06/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Meditation isn't for everyone and results vary I guess. I do meditation, like you, just to relax my body and slow things down a little. It feels really nice at times but hasn't been magic for me either. Honestly, I've known a number of long term meditators and none of them seem changed in any major way. Of course I don't know what they were like before they started.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/06/07 01:58 PM)

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Offlinenotapillow
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Silversoul]
    #7724691 - 12/06/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I took karate for over a year, and Aikido for another year, but I still wouldn't like my chances in a street brawl.



lol good point :smile:
i rmember when i was like12 a kid who was a "brown belt" kept talkign amjor shit t me. well i pounded his ass in like 2 sec flat and i diddnt need no belt to do it.
time has no bearing on meditation.

i have been activly meditating since 6th grade. i have since grown out of strict buddhism sectioning off. but f you think that you have reached the end of the line in your subconcious you are just being silly :smile:


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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: notapillow]
    #7724842 - 12/06/07 02:54 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

zhenka,

you should ask yourself why you are attacking Buddhism.

usually when we attack something, it is because we are afraid.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7724853 - 12/06/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

"Attack" is your subjective opinion here. This is a debate forum and he brought a subject up for debate IMO. Maybe better to look at your own bias.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7724871 - 12/06/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
"Attack" is your subjective opinion here. This is a debate forum and he brought a subject up for debate IMO. Maybe better to look at your own bias.




:rolleyes:

I'm just asking the kid to think about why he registered to make a point "attacking" buddhism.

Lighten up mister :grin:

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724968 - 12/06/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Buddhism appeals to many Americans as it promises what most lack - Happiness and contempt. In our society it is just another business of the "happiness industry" abused so much by marketing schemes. We have a number of depressed and unsatisfied individuals and the promise of happiness is hard to resist in the face of all the smiling faces you see on the pictures of gurus and especially the compassionate look of Dali Lama that seem to be empirical evidence that Buddhism does in fact work. The pictures seem to talk for themselves but as I will go into it later in my essay, looks can be deceiving.





I agree, I think most people are searching for happiness. Myself included.

Quote:

Now assuming you got the jest of, it I will make a highly controversial claim and I will say it bluntly – Buddhism is “appeal to nobler motives” in case depression, unsatisfaction, body image problems or practically any other psychological disorder that would make one want to believe the first noble truth – Life IS Suffering and the idea that one need to realize that his own ego doesn’t really exist and that one needs to reach enlightenment which is ceasing to be completely and escaping the wheel of rebirth. As Nietzsche often said that we cannot separate philosophy from those who follow it, there are always reasons for why they follow this one and not the other. Think about it, if you have body image problem, you would love to believe the whole ego thing where people claim it can be gotten rid of and would cure their suffering. The promise lures them in and instead of admitting their pathology they start saying that anyone who has healthy egos are suffering and ignorant to Buddhist truth(complete delusion) and somehow label them as “bad” and him/her self as “good”, which is exactly why Nietzsche would call Slave Morality or I just call Jealousy inspired morality. In a case of depression one would love to believe that it is not pathology but “a realization of the first noble truth!”; the contrast being something like being considered blessed as opposed to sick.





Buddhists do not try to escape their problems. They acknowledge that life is suffering and they try to approach life with a much more healthy mindset. A healthy person would not have an ego, because the ego is an illusion. The self doesn't exist.

Quote:

Now to go back to the Happy Faces on the pictures I offer the following examples. Look at the faces of some deluded Christians when they pray or are “possessed by holy spirit”. They are deluded as delusion can be and yet they are smiling. Now the reason why they smile is simply – they are told to smile. They act as if they are happy like all those fake smiles you see in America that is considered to be part of our culture. They are conditioned to present themselves as happy and they lie that they are happy but inside they have the hardest conflicts and turmoil that anyone imagine. In a case of Christians it is turmoils of guild, doubt and resisting sinful thoughts, in a case of Buddhists it is turmoil of trying to reach and impossible ideal of loss of ego, enlightenment and karma and the similar “deluded” states of mind such as anger. Now it is possible that some Buddhists are happy but the happiness is from successful escapism that they have in monastery isolated from any problems a person integrated in society might have like job, children and so on. Of course if you sit for days at a time doing nothing but breathing, you have not much to worry about but what kind of pussy existence is that? But of course they will not admit that they escaped the world, they will say they did it out of some kind of spiritual awakening which I will argue is simply depression.




Not all Buddhists live in a cave eating dingleberries whilst reciting mantras all day. Many Buddhists are normal day to day people. Would it surprise you to know that some Christians are generally happy people? They believe to have a relationship with god and take delight in helping others.

If you meet a genuine Buddhist, you will find they are some of the genuinely happiest people you have ever met. That is something which cannot be faked.

Quote:

Now why I said that Buddhism is not ally of reason is because it holds a number of beliefs claimed to be truth but are in fact having zero evidence. Of course they never say that it is complete bullshit – they will just say that you have to find out for yourself by meditating and or brainwashing yourself to their philosophy every day. They will say things like Buddha was enlightened and he knew the truth so basically the only evidence you have is someone word for it. Of course there are a number of people that I don’t argue probably came to feeling the same was as Buddha and claimed to be enlightened but I think it is just a delusion or error in brain cognition after years of conditioning. In fact Buddhism is very anti reason, especially in Zen as evident in their teachings like “it is the mind before the question.”





The evidence Buddhists have of their teachings is the results. Buddhism consistently asks practitioners to challenge the teachings and disprove them. You should take notice of just how often the Dalai Lama participates in talks with members of the scientific community.

Edited by oliveplume (12/06/07 07:32 PM)

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OfflineMokshaIs
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725043 - 12/06/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

When is one not deluded?
I feel rationality should be observed very closely, afterall, its lead to war, exploitation, and a whole plethora of pooness.
"If you meet the Buddha on the street, kill him!" -some wise Buddhist one. It means, don't get attached to those concepts, even the Buddhist ones, because truth is beyond that.


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: MokshaIs]
    #7725047 - 12/06/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MokshaIs said:
When is one not deluded?
I feel rationality should be observed very closely, afterall, its lead to war, exploitation, and a whole plethora of pooness.
"If you meet the Buddha on the street, kill him!" -some wise Buddhist one. It means, don't get attached to those concepts, even the Buddhist ones, because truth is beyond that.




:thumbup:

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Offlineastronaut
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725056 - 12/06/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

oliveplume said:
Quote:

Buddhism can also be thought of Nihilism in disguise of Spirituality or simply what Nietzsche criticized so much as “the other worldly philosophy”, meaning a philosophy that creates aversion to this world, this self, the way things are and instead putting all the focus on a goal outside of it. Of course you can claim it is not so but I think beyond the superficial beliefs Buddhism is exactly that – an escapism in disguise as evident in almost all the “teachings” given by its masters.




Buddhism is not nihilism. Nihilism proposes that subjective reality has no inherent value. Buddhism says yes, there is.




I agree more or less with everything you've said in here, but this simply is not true. Buddhism teaches that compassion (which presupposes inherent value) is a path to enlightenment, but not that it is the only one.


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In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: astronaut]
    #7725099 - 12/06/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I agree more or less with everything you've said in here, but this simply is not true. Buddhism teaches that compassion (which presupposes inherent value) is a path to enlightenment, but not that it is the only one.




haha, actually, I totally agree with. I don't know what the fuck I was thinking when I wrote that.

I need to reword that.

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7725126 - 12/06/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I dont know much about buddhism, but i think you have an obvious missunderstanding here

Nirvana is not happiness (though it is often thought of as that). All buddhism offers in its base teachings is the cessation of suffering. Anything else might be consequent of this, but isnt it.

It might be described as bliss, but then Id fully debate the meaning of bliss in this context. Particularly, nonkarmic.

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7725327 - 12/06/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Meditation isn't supposed to do anything, and it is absolutely not even in the same universe as being high. Through proper meditation the ultimate goal is to not need to feel high, because you just be, you do not struggle against pain, nor do you gloat in victory. I gather from your post that you are probably lying about being a "former Buddhist" You may have sat down, crossed your legs, and hoped you could make yourself high, but you were no Buddhist if you're still thinking like that.

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: astronaut]
    #7725333 - 12/06/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Coming to terms with and then finding ultimate beauty in meaninglessness = enlightenment.


 

:smile:


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725870 - 12/06/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

oliveplume said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
"Attack" is your subjective opinion here. This is a debate forum and he brought a subject up for debate IMO. Maybe better to look at your own bias.




:rolleyes:

I'm just asking the kid to think about why he registered to make a point "attacking" buddhism.

Lighten up mister :grin:




And why did you make a point of "attacking" his post?

So who needs to lighten up?  I feel pretty light. :lol: You used a pretty loaded word "attack". Let me guess that you are a fan of Buddhism.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/06/07 07:29 PM)

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7725874 - 12/06/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

oliveplume said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
"Attack" is your subjective opinion here. This is a debate forum and he brought a subject up for debate IMO. Maybe better to look at your own bias.




:rolleyes:

I'm just asking the kid to think about why he registered to make a point "attacking" buddhism.

Lighten up mister :grin:




And why did you make a point of "attacking" his post?

So who needs to lighten up? You used a pretty loaded word "attack". Let me guess that you are a fan of Buddhism.





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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725881 - 12/06/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If Buddhists think that They acknowledge that life is suffering Then I would say they are foolish. How do they know that everyone considers their life "suffering". I'm sure some do not. I know a couple in fact.

Now if they say attachment is suffering then I would say they are wise.:cool:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725882 - 12/06/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

like i already said you all got a bad case of the "isms"


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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725887 - 12/06/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Is that the Buddha? He's cute.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblebadreligion2good
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7726163 - 12/06/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

From what I read, your knowledge of Buddhism is limited. You are making assumptions and generalizations. There are many sects of Buddhism, some are more "mystical" and others are more pragmatic. To some people its a psychological study, to others religion, and to others a philosophy.

You are interpreting it as religion. Thats your choice, and theres nothing wrong with that, but you have to acknowledge that we all haven't been conditioned by the same experiences you have, and therefore, we do not all see things the way you do. There is no ultimate truth, no right or wrong. Buddhism is not right or wrong, its just a belief, an idea, for some it works, for some it doesn't. To each his own.

You believe what you choose to believe, and so does everyone else.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.

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Offlinelifeinstereo
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7728781 - 12/07/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zhenka11230 said:
I've yet to see research that was not made by the mind institute or any other institution which would be expected to have heavy biasm towards Buddhism. I would love links to legitimate research and if you could post some i would be grateful.




http://richarddawkins.net/article,361,The-God-Experiments,John-Horgan--Discover-Magazine

Here you go...

Although I am not a Buddhist I recognize that it is a method of practice that is used as a tool for self-psychology and is valid in that pursuit. The dogmatic aspects and the cosmological and hierarchical structures are subjective.The God Experiments

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7728808 - 12/07/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

that's so cute


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: lifeinstereo]
    #7729294 - 12/07/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The cosmological can be seen as allegorical for the psychological.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7730093 - 12/07/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I disagree with your viewpoint, but it was an interesting read nonetheless. Also, you need to work on your writing skills, particularly your mechanics.

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7730874 - 12/07/07 09:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for that writing, it was an interesting read. However, it seems to me that the understanding of Buddhism and Buddhist practice therein presents a skewed perspective.

Buddhism is NOT a practice of escapism, of trying to find happiness through doing something or by avoiding something. In fact, it's not a practice of finding happiness at all, as conventionally understood. In fact, it's about being totally present, here and now. And if pain or anger or anxiety or fear or whatever is present here and now, then that's it! Buddhist practice is not about trying to change those things or trying to get rid of them, or pretending that they don't exist. With intelligent practice, those qualities usually do fade and lose their attachment, but practice is not about making an effort towards that end.

Buddhism is also not about realizing that you (your ego) don't exist, nor is it about ceasing to be. Your self (your body, sensations, cognition, mental formations, and awareness) IS here and now. But it's a matter of seeing through those aggregates, and seeing who it is that is aware. Who it is that has thoughts and other mental formations. Who it is that has a body.

At its core, Buddhism has no beliefs. There are many people who say that they believe in Buddhism, or something to that effect, but that is just blind faith, and no different from other religions. That is not true Buddhism. The entire practice of Buddhism is about seeing for yourself. Testing out the teachings to see if they are, in fact, true. And that is the only way to know: by seeing for yourself. Anything less is simply blind faith.

Lastly, meditation is not supposed to get you anything. If you do get anything out of meditation, then wonderful! But that's not meditation. True meditation is simply being here, right now. You can't gain being here and now. If you are meditating for anything AT ALL, then you're not really meditating. True meditation has no gaining idea whatsoever.

Oh and one more thing: anyone who tries to teach you how to control or manipulate your emotions or anything else should be looked at very carefully. Most likely they are not real teachers. Real practice is not about trying to change your current experience, but simply about being present with it.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7731015 - 12/07/07 10:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)



Buddhism couldn't possibly be equally irrational because it doesn't dwell in the supernatural. The Buddha never claimed to be anything else than just a human.

Edited by urtrippin (12/07/07 10:25 PM)

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Offlineurtrippin
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7731182 - 12/07/07 11:02 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zhenka11230 said:
Hello fellow thinkers,

Buddhism appeals to many Americans as it promises what most lack - Happiness and contempt.




LOL - oh I think there's plenty of contempt going around.

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OfflineBrainChemicals
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: notapillow]
    #7732539 - 12/08/07 10:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I take Buddhism seriously, yet I don't. Religions like Taoism, Buddhism, etc are all based around the human experience of the same "ultimate reality." Buddhists and Taoists furthermore, ultimately say "reject everything, including this religion, for what we've given you isn't a religion but just a method of practice to ultimately experience nonconceptualized ultimate reality." For this reason, Buddhism is religious but not a religion and therefore much different than anything else.

Also, I feel that Buddhist cosmology makes an enormous amount of sense, and science is seemingly starting to agree.


--------------------
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Weep and you weep alone

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: BrainChemicals]
    #7732705 - 12/08/07 11:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

all based around the human experience of the same "ultimate reality."

Oh you mean your subjective "ultimate reality".

No one to my knowledge has ever experienced ultimate reality or can identify it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineeve69
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7780723 - 12/20/07 08:18 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think it's true in part that many Buddhists do get into the 'brainwashing' part. Especially those with little occult background who are atoning for their previous negative ways, who thus are treating Buddhism like Christianity. And this does happen.

Also, I do believe that many people choose a monking or nunnish lifestyle as based in their negativity towards life, rather than for positive aspiration to that lifestyle for what it presents in terms of an opportunity to study and meditate deeply.

I could go on about wrong thoughts and motives and behaviors which propel people to do Buddhism, but I could also go on about that about anything.

Just, as in say, any profession those who do the profession because they love their work will maintain an especial joie de vivre, while those who are grunting along will show their displeasure as they work.

Thus it all depends upon the person and their motives for pursuing what they are doing.

But the fact that Buddhism provides a framework for a certain realization for those for whom that realization is important and should be applauded and not lead to hissing.

Buddhism is a practical study, like learning to and fixing an automobile. The most deluded (ex-Buddhists) were the merely philosophical ones who never took the car for a spin. Because in driving one gets a sense of the whole point of the vehicle. Otherwise, without driving, cars seem pretty pointless as abstractions.

I've said what I meant to say. Religions, like cars, should be driven, not from the backseat.


--------------------
...or something






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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: eve69]
    #7780923 - 12/20/07 09:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

But the fact that Buddhism provides a framework for a certain realization for those for whom that realization is important and should be applauded and not lead to hissing.

Buddhism is a practical study, like learning to and fixing an automobile. The most deluded (ex-Buddhists) were the merely philosophical ones who never took the car for a spin. Because in driving one gets a sense of the whole point of the vehicle. Otherwise, without driving, cars seem pretty pointless as abstractions.


I really enjoy (and agree with) many of your posts here. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineeve69
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7780970 - 12/20/07 10:06 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks. I think we had some mutual admiration a year or two back as well.


--------------------
...or something






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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: eve69]
    #7783046 - 12/20/07 07:51 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I think you are making generalizations about Buddhism, many which are not true, and you also seem to be making your generalizations based on the biased perspective of Nietzche. I don't believe Nietzche had a very accurate concept of what Buddhism is about.

I am not a buddhist and I do not attach myself solely to any one philosophy but many buddhist ideas have been very helpful to me pyschologically and philosophically. Although there are many different sects of buddhism, buddhism isn't about escaping the grit and grime of the real world for some fantasy detached life. For me, buddhism has helped me to embrace the "harsh" realities of the real world by learning not to be so attached, by learning to shed bias and see things as they are. there is no such thing as objective suffering. not everyone percieves life as suffering. i know i certainly don't. i don't feel like my life is one of suffering even though another person doing/going through the same things as me might say that it is. buddhism has taught me that my perceptions play a huge role in how i describe or define things. if i percieve getting up and going to a minimum wage job every day as suffering because i could be making more money, because i dont have excess amounts of money, because i dont have a "respectable" job, then i will be unhappy and it will because of my attachment to social concepts of what a good job is. however, if i remove those social concepts and go back to my job i can view it as completely neutral. then, after that, i can create. In saying "create," I mean that because everything is meaningless, I can give meaning to my job. I can be happy that I have an activity to go to on a daily basis in which i can interact with my friends/coworkers. I can be happy that I work in pretty comfortable conditions. I can be happy that I am employed at all. I can be happy that I am simply experiencing reality and the astonishing complexity yet simplicity and beauty of every moment. Buddhism, for me, is about living completely in the moment. It is about being absorbed in the astonishing wild beauty of reality in the present. It is about removing attachment and preconcieved notions about how things are "supposed" to be and then creating your life/happiness out of the nothingness. I find it exciting that my life is mine to create and that i have the power to make the present moment utterly beautiful or the opposite. I utilize buddhism, i utilize the ideas present within it alongside of many ideas in other philosophies. In that regard, I do not view it as a religion but as a tool, a tool to learning better ways of living, to learning how to awaken myself and get the most out of existence and experience as i could possible dream of. It is about embracing reality, embracing what you have, the way things are. it is the complete opposite of escapism. With escapism, one desires to escape because he/she thinks things should be a different way so he/she tries to get away/escape. buddhism is a philosophy for those who want to learn how to completely live in the moment, try to un attach themselves from "should be's", and be completely happy simply existing.

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Offlinehowtodisappear
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #9857621 - 02/24/09 05:15 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I highly recommend that you and everyone read Zen and the Brain by Dr. James H. Austin.


If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.
- Einstein

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Offlinehowtodisappear
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #9857678 - 02/24/09 05:22 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

"Believe nothing merely because you have been told it.
Do not believe what your teacher tells you
merely out of respect for the teacher.
But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis,
you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit,
the welfare of all beings -- that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide." - Siddhartha Gautama

One of the great things about Buddhism is that from the very start of it, Siddhartha Gautama taught that you shouldn't believe anything that does not agree with your own reason and common sense.

Plus, scientific discoveries have helped and not harmed the credibility of Buddhism. That is a rare occurrence.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: howtodisappear]
    #9858352 - 02/24/09 07:10 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

What a saucy post. I get some of what you are trying to say, but I would agree with the rebuttals in the sense that perhaps the OP was being a bit too black and white about Buddhism. It seems that the OP is deprecating it due to how the masses might participate in it or whatever. I do not claim to know much about it but I can say that it seems to be on to something at some level. But yes, existential thinkers often offer up good anecdotal reality checks if you will. You reference Nietzsche, I know he was a bit anti Buddha, however it has been noted he wasn't that well versed in Buddhism. I guess I can agree a Buddhist who is so extreme that he will not participate in the variety of things the world can offer seems too unbalanced. But that doesnt mean that Buddhism has some aspects of it that are worthwhile. Remember Nietzsche himself was pretty hermit like and "life negating" in his own sense for several reasons, I think he just doesnt like the idea of weariness that could be attributed to the desire loose oneself in a more ideal existence or something.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: andrewss]
    #9858456 - 02/24/09 07:29 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Well said Andrews.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: daytripper23]
    #9858478 - 02/24/09 07:31 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Well said Andrews.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?




fap fap fap fap fap behind the glow of a computer screen while sobbing at how lame I am.

Errrrrrrr :lol:


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: andrewss]
    #9858625 - 02/24/09 07:48 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

haha well Im glad I am the one asking the question.

I think the thing about the Koan is how you find yourself doing the most absurd things over and over again.

For me, meditation is ascetic much of the time. I can think of no other way to describe sitting on my ass for 45 minutes, other than I am negating all the fun I could have letting my mind run wild. Maybe when I get into it, I am no longer repressing or negating, but in the beginning I sure am.

Nietzsche is an interesting lens for eastern philosophy. He outrightly rejected (-) asceticism in favor of a (+) will to power. But then again, like you say, look at the way he lived...

Theres one thing funny about him, (I just heard this through the grape vine by the way) supposedly he only had sex one time in his life, and the poor guy caught syphilis and that's how he died.

By the way what do you mean he is sort of anti-buddha?

Edited by daytripper23 (02/24/09 08:51 PM)

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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: daytripper23]
    #9858786 - 02/24/09 08:10 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Theres one thing funny about him, (I just heard this through the grape vine by the way) supposedly he only had sex one time in his life, and the poor guy caught syphilis and that's how he died.




Beware of syphilitics preaching morals.
--Saul Bellow


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlineastronaut
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: deCypher]
    #9858828 - 02/24/09 08:17 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

I don't think the OP (or Nietzsche) understands Buddhism, and in the case of the OP, his grammar leaves something to be desired as well. ;- /


--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: daytripper23]
    #9859180 - 02/24/09 09:00 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
haha well Im glad I am the one asking the question.

I think the thing about the Koan is how you find yourself doing the most absurd things over and over again.

For me, meditation is ascetic much of the time. I can think of no other way to describe sitting on my ass for 45 minutes, other than I am negating all the fun I could have letting my mind run wild. Maybe when I get into it, I am no longer repressing or negating, but in the beginning I sure am.

Nietzsche is an interesting lens for eastern philosophy. He outrightly rejected (-) asceticism in favor of a (+) will to power. But then again, like you say, look at the way he lived...

Theres one thing funny about him, (I just heard this through the grape vine by the way) supposedly he only had sex one time in his life, and the poor guy caught syphilis and that's how he died.

By the way what do you mean he is sort of anti-buddha?




Primarily from Walter Kaufmann (a big german to english translator of Nietzsche and writer himself who also wrote a biography of him) notes that the syphilis deal is not actually proven as truth. There is no doubt that Nietzsche lived a lot of his life in pain, headaches, bodyaches, severe eye problems, etc... It could be that his eventually going mad is related to syphilis but then again its not proven fact. But it is perhaps likely. Nobody knows how much sex Nietzsche had, surely not that much though.

It is well documented he had a odd encounter at a brothel.

Antibuddha? Hmmm, I guess I am not really sure. Surely he would have had problems with anyone claiming to assert the true existence of any sort of heaven. But again I am no expert in Buddhism but it should be noted that perhaps Nietzsche was surely not the antithesis of Buddhism. He to me seems to espouse a sort of skeptical "metaphysic" if you will... I mean my limited understanding of the will to power concept seems pretty metaphysical. But then again I think there is something remarkable about his approach to the supposed dichotomy between what science rigidly espouses and what religions do. Parts of The Gay Science come to mind when he wrote on epistemology and the sort, he had a very diverse outlook IMO.


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Jesus loves you.

Edited by andrewss (02/24/09 09:03 PM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: andrewss]
    #9859367 - 02/24/09 09:29 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Hmmm, I never got the impression that Nietzsche was speaking metaphysically, although metaphysic is a strange enough concept that it may have more to do with my personal understanding of it. I would think though, that the will to power and most of his basic ideas were precisely described to precede metaphysics. It might be a bit of an oversimplification, but in this sense much of what he said seemed almost animalistic, preceding human. Certainly evolutionary.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: daytripper23]
    #9859930 - 02/24/09 11:08 PM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Yes, but I guess there are degrees of metaphysical loftiness...

check this out: http://www.mun.ca/phil/codgito/vol2/v2doc4.html

Pretty good write up related to this part of Nietzsche


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Jesus loves you.

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Invisiblearainbow
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Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Silversoul]
    #9868267 - 02/26/09 08:37 AM (15 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
BTW, I'd like to address this comment:
Quote:

Meditating will not get you anything but mild relaxation and detachment from the world, which can be achieved much more efficiently by smoking pot or taking a hot bath.



I'm sorry, but this is not what meditation is about.  The goal of meditation is not relaxation, but rather mental discipline.  Someone with years of experience and practice at meditation will have much greater control over their brain functions, including their emotions(thus allowing for greater happiness).




meditation can produce a higher state of consciousness in witch one becomes aware of one's existance in the the present
the term most often used to describe this state of mind is being here now or self conscious

the hard pill for most people to swallow is they are not self conscious but instead are in a semi sleep state


--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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