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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7724871 - 12/06/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
"Attack" is your subjective opinion here. This is a debate forum and he brought a subject up for debate IMO. Maybe better to look at your own bias.




:rolleyes:

I'm just asking the kid to think about why he registered to make a point "attacking" buddhism.

Lighten up mister :grin:

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7724968 - 12/06/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Buddhism appeals to many Americans as it promises what most lack - Happiness and contempt. In our society it is just another business of the "happiness industry" abused so much by marketing schemes. We have a number of depressed and unsatisfied individuals and the promise of happiness is hard to resist in the face of all the smiling faces you see on the pictures of gurus and especially the compassionate look of Dali Lama that seem to be empirical evidence that Buddhism does in fact work. The pictures seem to talk for themselves but as I will go into it later in my essay, looks can be deceiving.





I agree, I think most people are searching for happiness. Myself included.

Quote:

Now assuming you got the jest of, it I will make a highly controversial claim and I will say it bluntly – Buddhism is “appeal to nobler motives” in case depression, unsatisfaction, body image problems or practically any other psychological disorder that would make one want to believe the first noble truth – Life IS Suffering and the idea that one need to realize that his own ego doesn’t really exist and that one needs to reach enlightenment which is ceasing to be completely and escaping the wheel of rebirth. As Nietzsche often said that we cannot separate philosophy from those who follow it, there are always reasons for why they follow this one and not the other. Think about it, if you have body image problem, you would love to believe the whole ego thing where people claim it can be gotten rid of and would cure their suffering. The promise lures them in and instead of admitting their pathology they start saying that anyone who has healthy egos are suffering and ignorant to Buddhist truth(complete delusion) and somehow label them as “bad” and him/her self as “good”, which is exactly why Nietzsche would call Slave Morality or I just call Jealousy inspired morality. In a case of depression one would love to believe that it is not pathology but “a realization of the first noble truth!”; the contrast being something like being considered blessed as opposed to sick.





Buddhists do not try to escape their problems. They acknowledge that life is suffering and they try to approach life with a much more healthy mindset. A healthy person would not have an ego, because the ego is an illusion. The self doesn't exist.

Quote:

Now to go back to the Happy Faces on the pictures I offer the following examples. Look at the faces of some deluded Christians when they pray or are “possessed by holy spirit”. They are deluded as delusion can be and yet they are smiling. Now the reason why they smile is simply – they are told to smile. They act as if they are happy like all those fake smiles you see in America that is considered to be part of our culture. They are conditioned to present themselves as happy and they lie that they are happy but inside they have the hardest conflicts and turmoil that anyone imagine. In a case of Christians it is turmoils of guild, doubt and resisting sinful thoughts, in a case of Buddhists it is turmoil of trying to reach and impossible ideal of loss of ego, enlightenment and karma and the similar “deluded” states of mind such as anger. Now it is possible that some Buddhists are happy but the happiness is from successful escapism that they have in monastery isolated from any problems a person integrated in society might have like job, children and so on. Of course if you sit for days at a time doing nothing but breathing, you have not much to worry about but what kind of pussy existence is that? But of course they will not admit that they escaped the world, they will say they did it out of some kind of spiritual awakening which I will argue is simply depression.




Not all Buddhists live in a cave eating dingleberries whilst reciting mantras all day. Many Buddhists are normal day to day people. Would it surprise you to know that some Christians are generally happy people? They believe to have a relationship with god and take delight in helping others.

If you meet a genuine Buddhist, you will find they are some of the genuinely happiest people you have ever met. That is something which cannot be faked.

Quote:

Now why I said that Buddhism is not ally of reason is because it holds a number of beliefs claimed to be truth but are in fact having zero evidence. Of course they never say that it is complete bullshit – they will just say that you have to find out for yourself by meditating and or brainwashing yourself to their philosophy every day. They will say things like Buddha was enlightened and he knew the truth so basically the only evidence you have is someone word for it. Of course there are a number of people that I don’t argue probably came to feeling the same was as Buddha and claimed to be enlightened but I think it is just a delusion or error in brain cognition after years of conditioning. In fact Buddhism is very anti reason, especially in Zen as evident in their teachings like “it is the mind before the question.”





The evidence Buddhists have of their teachings is the results. Buddhism consistently asks practitioners to challenge the teachings and disprove them. You should take notice of just how often the Dalai Lama participates in talks with members of the scientific community.

Edited by oliveplume (12/06/07 07:32 PM)

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OfflineMokshaIs
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Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 476
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725043 - 12/06/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

When is one not deluded?
I feel rationality should be observed very closely, afterall, its lead to war, exploitation, and a whole plethora of pooness.
"If you meet the Buddha on the street, kill him!" -some wise Buddhist one. It means, don't get attached to those concepts, even the Buddhist ones, because truth is beyond that.


--------------------
in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: MokshaIs]
    #7725047 - 12/06/07 03:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MokshaIs said:
When is one not deluded?
I feel rationality should be observed very closely, afterall, its lead to war, exploitation, and a whole plethora of pooness.
"If you meet the Buddha on the street, kill him!" -some wise Buddhist one. It means, don't get attached to those concepts, even the Buddhist ones, because truth is beyond that.




:thumbup:

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Offlineastronaut
ascetic aesthetic
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Registered: 09/11/07
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725056 - 12/06/07 03:44 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

oliveplume said:
Quote:

Buddhism can also be thought of Nihilism in disguise of Spirituality or simply what Nietzsche criticized so much as “the other worldly philosophy”, meaning a philosophy that creates aversion to this world, this self, the way things are and instead putting all the focus on a goal outside of it. Of course you can claim it is not so but I think beyond the superficial beliefs Buddhism is exactly that – an escapism in disguise as evident in almost all the “teachings” given by its masters.




Buddhism is not nihilism. Nihilism proposes that subjective reality has no inherent value. Buddhism says yes, there is.




I agree more or less with everything you've said in here, but this simply is not true. Buddhism teaches that compassion (which presupposes inherent value) is a path to enlightenment, but not that it is the only one.


--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: astronaut]
    #7725099 - 12/06/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I agree more or less with everything you've said in here, but this simply is not true. Buddhism teaches that compassion (which presupposes inherent value) is a path to enlightenment, but not that it is the only one.




haha, actually, I totally agree with. I don't know what the fuck I was thinking when I wrote that.

I need to reword that.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7725126 - 12/06/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I dont know much about buddhism, but i think you have an obvious missunderstanding here

Nirvana is not happiness (though it is often thought of as that). All buddhism offers in its base teachings is the cessation of suffering. Anything else might be consequent of this, but isnt it.

It might be described as bliss, but then Id fully debate the meaning of bliss in this context. Particularly, nonkarmic.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7725327 - 12/06/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Meditation isn't supposed to do anything, and it is absolutely not even in the same universe as being high. Through proper meditation the ultimate goal is to not need to feel high, because you just be, you do not struggle against pain, nor do you gloat in victory. I gather from your post that you are probably lying about being a "former Buddhist" You may have sat down, crossed your legs, and hoped you could make yourself high, but you were no Buddhist if you're still thinking like that.

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: astronaut]
    #7725333 - 12/06/07 04:57 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Coming to terms with and then finding ultimate beauty in meaninglessness = enlightenment.


 

:smile:


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725870 - 12/06/07 07:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

oliveplume said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
"Attack" is your subjective opinion here. This is a debate forum and he brought a subject up for debate IMO. Maybe better to look at your own bias.




:rolleyes:

I'm just asking the kid to think about why he registered to make a point "attacking" buddhism.

Lighten up mister :grin:




And why did you make a point of "attacking" his post?

So who needs to lighten up?  I feel pretty light. :lol: You used a pretty loaded word "attack". Let me guess that you are a fan of Buddhism.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/06/07 07:29 PM)

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Offlinemushroomplume
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7725874 - 12/06/07 07:31 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

oliveplume said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
"Attack" is your subjective opinion here. This is a debate forum and he brought a subject up for debate IMO. Maybe better to look at your own bias.




:rolleyes:

I'm just asking the kid to think about why he registered to make a point "attacking" buddhism.

Lighten up mister :grin:




And why did you make a point of "attacking" his post?

So who needs to lighten up? You used a pretty loaded word "attack". Let me guess that you are a fan of Buddhism.





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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725881 - 12/06/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

If Buddhists think that They acknowledge that life is suffering Then I would say they are foolish. How do they know that everyone considers their life "suffering". I'm sure some do not. I know a couple in fact.

Now if they say attachment is suffering then I would say they are wise.:cool:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinenotapillow
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725882 - 12/06/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

like i already said you all got a bad case of the "isms"


--------------------



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7725887 - 12/06/07 07:35 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Is that the Buddha? He's cute.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblebadreligion2good
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7726163 - 12/06/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

From what I read, your knowledge of Buddhism is limited. You are making assumptions and generalizations. There are many sects of Buddhism, some are more "mystical" and others are more pragmatic. To some people its a psychological study, to others religion, and to others a philosophy.

You are interpreting it as religion. Thats your choice, and theres nothing wrong with that, but you have to acknowledge that we all haven't been conditioned by the same experiences you have, and therefore, we do not all see things the way you do. There is no ultimate truth, no right or wrong. Buddhism is not right or wrong, its just a belief, an idea, for some it works, for some it doesn't. To each his own.

You believe what you choose to believe, and so does everyone else.


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.

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Offlinelifeinstereo
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7728781 - 12/07/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zhenka11230 said:
I've yet to see research that was not made by the mind institute or any other institution which would be expected to have heavy biasm towards Buddhism. I would love links to legitimate research and if you could post some i would be grateful.




http://richarddawkins.net/article,361,The-God-Experiments,John-Horgan--Discover-Magazine

Here you go...

Although I am not a Buddhist I recognize that it is a method of practice that is used as a tool for self-psychology and is valid in that pursuit. The dogmatic aspects and the cosmological and hierarchical structures are subjective.The God Experiments

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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: mushroomplume]
    #7728808 - 12/07/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

that's so cute


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: lifeinstereo]
    #7729294 - 12/07/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

The cosmological can be seen as allegorical for the psychological.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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OfflineBoots
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: Icelander]
    #7730093 - 12/07/07 06:30 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I disagree with your viewpoint, but it was an interesting read nonetheless. Also, you need to work on your writing skills, particularly your mechanics.

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Buddhism is equaly irrational to any other religion. [Re: zhenka11230]
    #7730874 - 12/07/07 09:52 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for that writing, it was an interesting read. However, it seems to me that the understanding of Buddhism and Buddhist practice therein presents a skewed perspective.

Buddhism is NOT a practice of escapism, of trying to find happiness through doing something or by avoiding something. In fact, it's not a practice of finding happiness at all, as conventionally understood. In fact, it's about being totally present, here and now. And if pain or anger or anxiety or fear or whatever is present here and now, then that's it! Buddhist practice is not about trying to change those things or trying to get rid of them, or pretending that they don't exist. With intelligent practice, those qualities usually do fade and lose their attachment, but practice is not about making an effort towards that end.

Buddhism is also not about realizing that you (your ego) don't exist, nor is it about ceasing to be. Your self (your body, sensations, cognition, mental formations, and awareness) IS here and now. But it's a matter of seeing through those aggregates, and seeing who it is that is aware. Who it is that has thoughts and other mental formations. Who it is that has a body.

At its core, Buddhism has no beliefs. There are many people who say that they believe in Buddhism, or something to that effect, but that is just blind faith, and no different from other religions. That is not true Buddhism. The entire practice of Buddhism is about seeing for yourself. Testing out the teachings to see if they are, in fact, true. And that is the only way to know: by seeing for yourself. Anything less is simply blind faith.

Lastly, meditation is not supposed to get you anything. If you do get anything out of meditation, then wonderful! But that's not meditation. True meditation is simply being here, right now. You can't gain being here and now. If you are meditating for anything AT ALL, then you're not really meditating. True meditation has no gaining idea whatsoever.

Oh and one more thing: anyone who tries to teach you how to control or manipulate your emotions or anything else should be looked at very carefully. Most likely they are not real teachers. Real practice is not about trying to change your current experience, but simply about being present with it.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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