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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052158 -

seuss did you get my PM?


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9052167 -

> seuss did you get my PM?

Yes, and am still considering... though I hate to move such a good discussion somewhere that will kill it.  I know we have gone off topic from what you intended, but there is a good debate going on and it is this type of discussion that helps us learn from each other.  :smile:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052169 -

Quote:
Interstate roads help everybody, from the rich to the poor.  You want food?  Unless you are growing it yourself, it has to be transported, either by road or rail.


Agreed, and the same argument can be applied to schools or healthcare - you want food? Unless you are growing it yourself, it has to be grown and transported by people, and if they are sick they can't work. A healthy population is more productive, therefore it makes economic sense to make healthcare affordable to them.
And the arguments against public healthcare - that it does not make economic sense, or that it's an unfair distribution of wealth - can be used against public roads too. I've heard people argue that all roads should be privatised, run by corporations and funded with tolls.

I'm trying not to get into an argument about the specifics of welfare, healthcare or public roads (not in this thread anyway) - I'm just trying to get my point across that it's all a matter of opinion. You believe it's okay to fund roads and schools but not healthcare. I think all those should be funded, but I don't, for example, think that airlines should be nationalised (but the airports should).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: johnm214]
    #9052188 -

I think it was this remark "Why would I owe some other cracker some cash?" Pared with comments made in the other thread either by you or fivepointer that led me to infer that you were making that judgment on who should receive public funds. If this is not what you meant then forget I brought it up.

Quote:
Who am I to say some hillbilly shouldn't get wellfare provided to others?  Who is the government?


So because the government could allocate welfare unfairly some of the time they should never be able to do it ever?

Quote:
I don't endeavor to have the state enforce my value system via taxation or grant.


But you say you are in favor of public schools, roads, and police. Not all people (nor all libertarians) share this view, this is a value judgment on your part. If you are allowed to make a value judgment to say what in society is worth protecting and I am not then you are being a hypocrite.

Quote:
Their are no roads for rich or poor.  Their are no schools for rich or poor.  Their are no police for rich or poor.


If those who couldn't sustain themselves were not assisted do you think the only people this could impact is those individuals. Surely a few of these people could become a public nuisance. Many would become homeless/squatters, robbers/thieves, beggars or dead. There are other benefactors to welfare than just the recipients.

Quote:
Giving government the power to distribute money is giving them the power to control you.


Not much more than an employer controls an employee, or a buyer controls a seller.

Quote:
They pass national healthcare then tell you you can't smoke, afterall they pay for your care.


I've not known this to happen anywhere, however in countries where public health care is available cigarette taxes tend to be higher.


Quote:
And for the record, in the US, I'm not entirely against all social programs.  I'm categorically against the federal government providing these, though.  It is dangerous to our freedom to have the government taking your money and redistributing it how they see fit rather than how your community sees fit.  No guarantee you get it all back, no guarentee you have a use for the form in which you do get it back, no guarentee they won't hold it hostage unless you assent to their bullshit demands.



so your in favor of welfare, but not centralized welfare? This makes sense minimum wage standards and some labor laws are different from state to state as with province to province. However that wasn't a theme of the question at all.
Seuss condemned all welfare when he said:
Quote:
> I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal

I wish somebody would explain to me why this is a good combination?  Why do you feel that you are entitled to somebodies money/property/prosperity for no other reason than you feel like you deserve it?


Frankly nobody with much money/property/prosperity worked for it all. Are they not helping themselves to someone's hard earned money/property/prosperity every time they make a markup on something produced by someone else be them a store, manufacturer or otherwise.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9052203 -

> Agreed, and the same argument can be applied to schools or healthcare

I feel that the federal government should set the minimum standards for accreditation and provide standardized testing to ensure these standards are met, but leave the funding and operation of schools to the individual states.  Beyond that, the federal government should keep their fingers out of the school pie.  I also don't have a problem with the federal government giving tax breaks or other incentives to companies that help fund education.

My big issue with healthcare is that the system is broken.  By providing universal healthcare, the government is writing a blank check, signed by the taxpayer, to the healthcare industry.  If the problems with the healthcare industry were fixed, then universal healthcare would not be needed, as healthcare would be affordable.  Again, I would leave it up to the states to decide if/how they wanted to implement a healthcare program in their state.

The other big problem with universal healthcare is the government is eventually going to decide to micromanage how I live my life in the name of healthcare; and rightly so, if they are footing the bill.  Why should my tax money go to pay for Zed's heart transplant when Zed weighs 800lbs and eats nothing but Big Macs every day while collecting his welfare check and watching Oprah?  I would much rather the government stay out of my life, and Zed's life for that matter.

> A healthy population is more productive

Assuming that the healthy population is working rather than sitting around waiting for their check from the man.  Again, I am not against universal healthcare, but I think it should be universal at the state level rather than the federal level.  Let the federal government regulate (within reason) the heath industry to keep healthcare affordable.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052224 -

Quote:
Why should my tax money go to pay for Zed's heart transplant when Zed weighs 800lbs and eats nothing but Big Macs every day while collecting his welfare check and watching Oprah?


"You get a free heart transplant and you get a free heart transplant and and you get a free heart transplant and you get a free heart transplant and every 800lbs person living off big Macks at home gets a free heart transplant!!!!"

Seriously though usually people who will benefit the least because of medical concerns, like say being an opera viewer or maybe being morbidly obese, end up not making transplant lists and dying. This even happens in non-socialized medicine, this shows your clearly not a "house" fan. I mean if you watched the show it comes up quite a lot.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052239 -

Seuss said:
My big issue with healthcare is that the system is broken.  By providing universal healthcare, the government is writing a blank check, signed by the taxpayer, to the healthcare industry.  If the problems with the healthcare industry were fixed, then universal healthcare would not be needed, as healthcare would be affordable.  Again, I would leave it up to the states to decide if/how they wanted to implement a healthcare program in their state.

The other big problem with universal healthcare is the government is eventually going to decide to micromanage how I live my life in the name of healthcare; and rightly so, if they are footing the bill.  Why should my tax money go to pay for Zed's heart transplant when Zed weighs 800lbs and eats nothing but Big Macs every day while collecting his welfare check and watching Oprah?  I would much rather the government stay out of my life, and Zed's life for that matter.



Exactly.


This system should not be perpetuated with federal dollars of a greater magnitude.  The feds now control licensure, the ability to prescribe, the ability to effectivly work or get paid, and the ability to practice how you want.

I can't see who I want, I have to see a government approved doctor.  That means I have to wait till the feds decide another medical school is wise.  That means I have to wait till the physicians' lobby, which is without pail in its hypocrasy- bemoaning socialist healthcare and then encouraging restrictions of the free market through prevention of midlevel licensure, accents to allowing one to open.


There's been something like one new alopathic medical school in the last twenty years, maybe none, and that is coulpled with this rise in medical needs?  Bullshit. This is not a free market.  In a free market I could see a nurse practitioner for my rash.  I could decide to buy my own ointment.  I wouldn't need a nanny state telling me whether I can or cannot have a drug which is neither psychotropic nor particularly dangerous.

People have been sheltered from the train wreck that is healthcare in this country through the  special deals their insurance companies and medicare gets, while passing on a big fuck you to the self pays.  A colonoscopy billed for 3500 suddenly becomes 800?  Bullshit.

Name one other industry where the price the insurance company pays is three times less, at least, than the price the uninsured pays?  Doesn't exist.


Healthcare is a system of illegal trusts where you have to pay for an insurer not for insurance, but to have the privledge of receiving a fair bill- which while paid by the insurer, yes, is really paid for by you.  The insruance is not insruance, it is a club where you don't get fucked by outrageous bills.




2 things would happen:

1.  They would dramatically cut the quality of care that is now standard:

2.  They would spend shitloads of money.


Neither is acceptable.


Govenrment does not know what a fair price is or what acceptable service is.  THe market does.  All I want is to have a pool of doctors not artificially limited via accredation or scope or manner of practice, in competition with whoever wishes to honestly promote their competing services (nurses, PA's, psychologists, et cet) and with the socialist systems that allowed the system to get out of control, partly, gone.


You can't even practice, hardly, if you don't have medicare accredation.  Suddenly the feds tell the states their licensure isn't good enough.  Full faith and credit?  Don't need it...




And Seuss is right.  When they start paying for your welfare they start telling you to apply or so many jobs.  WHen they pfay for your healthcare they start drug testing, charging more for politically correct factors like smoking or obesity, and start telling you what you have to do to get your tax money back.


The govenrment will take your money and tell you what to do to recieve any apportioned benifit therefrom.  Just like they do with the highway funds, school dollars, and grants, they will do with every other program.  Untill the states are but formalities.


There is nothing stopping a state from instituting healthcare programs- nothing.  Nothing except ridiculous taxing by a too-large federal govenrment such that the people can hardly afford to pay the state's their due.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: johnm214]
    #9052274 -

i don't know if this is relevant, but my brother and i decided to sign up for foodstamps yesterday. we both make about 8k per year, so we're eligible even if we're employed.

fuck yeah, maybe now i can finally afford fresh blueberries, currant juice and cheese.

i don't think i have to do anything like try and find more work or whatever, i think they just give it to me.

time for some sweet government cheese.

we're both kind of startled, because we're pretty comfortable living off this much or less.  foodstamps would give us about 400$ extra per month of spending money... which is like doubling our non rent income.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9052299 -

> we're both kind of startled, because we're pretty comfortable living off this much or less.

Even better... if you stop working altogether, you will qualify for welfare, and will get more from the government from not working than you are currently making.  Squeeze out a few kids and you get even more!


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052349 -

nah i think welfare sucks these days.  For some reason i'm having alot of trouble finding info now, but i think where i live in NY you're only eligible for 3 months, then if necessary you can get another 3 months extension.  during this time you have to prove you're looking for a job, and i think they even look for jobs for you.  If i recall the amount of money you get is very low too.

i don't know, that may be total bullshit, but i remember looking it up a couple years ago and thinking it sucked.

public housing might be good, haven't looked into that yet.

foodstamps is banging, and apparently we actually have two foodstamps programs, the normal one and then one called WIC - women, infants, and children.

edit: So it seems welfare is a multitude of different services.  the only one i could find for people without families is Unemployment benefits (lol, great name).

i would have to find a job, and i would get payed about half what i am currently making. roughly 325$ a month


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.

Edited by truekimbo2 (10/09/08 09:28 AM)

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9052503 -

if i was president id destroy dc from the inside


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yellow red black and white cometogether as humans and fallow the path the creater intended

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9052971 -

zouden writes:

Quote:
So are you arguing for the abolition of taxes?


I favor the abolition of taxes, but that isn't the point.

It's not that taxes are collected, it's what they are spent on. If the taxes are spent on the proper functions of government (courts, cops, military) it's one thing. If the taxes are spent on social engineering programs or merely handed out to other people, it's quite another thing.

Seizing by force money from one constituent and handing it off to another constituent is an illegitimate act, no matter how you attempt to redefine the act by calling the booty "taxes" and calling the theft "redistribution programs".



Phred


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Phred]
    #9054297 -

But isn't military funding just redistributing wealth from taxpayers to soldiers and shareholders of defence corporations? You see the military as a necessary function of government while healthcare isn't, but other people see the opposite. Again, you can't use absolutism to defend your position.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054382 -

Quote:
But isn't military funding just redistributing wealth from taxpayers to soldiers and shareholders of defence corporations?


No.

That line of thinking is sophistry. It isn't taking from someone and giving to someone else (redistribution of wealth), it is taking from someone and buying stuff. Not the same thing at all. Not even close.

Quote:
You see the military as a necessary function of government while healthcare isn't, but other people see the opposite.


Those other people are wrong.

Quote:
Again, you can't use absolutism to defend your position.


Then neither can you.

No serious debater will try to argue it is not the primary function of government to protect its constituents from human predators. If that's your position there's no point you and I continuing to engage.




Phred


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Phred]
    #9054390 -

I ran for mayor of Seattle, so I feel qualified to run for The President of the United States. Vote for me. I'd like to run as an independent since labeling your beliefs to one side or another will inhibit you from doing the right thing when you could just as easily toe the party line.

Also if I win, donate the money to charity or to a political organization like NORML. I don't want it.


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Hi  :scrambled:

My god... it's full of stars...

Edited by StrandedVoyager (10/09/08 05:59 PM)

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Phred]
    #9054414 -

Quote:
It isn't taking from someone and giving to someone else (redistribution of wealth), it is taking from someone and buying stuff.


But without government, those things wouldn't have been bought. Thus, it's a government-controlled redistribution of wealth that would not normally occur in a completely free market.

Quote:
Those other people are wrong.


You're not very good at this are you?

Quote:
No serious debater will try to argue it is not the primary function of government to protect its constituents from human predators. If that's your position there's no point you and I continuing to engage.


That's not my position.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054434 -

It should be mentioned that our economy becomes dependent on this redistribution of wealth through the military.  It creates an artificial middle class and an artificial industrial sector (by artificial I mean man-made).  Just reminding those unfamiliar with the basics of the military-industrial complex


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Discuss Politics

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #9054470 -

Ill nominate myself for independant.

Platform: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9054490/an/0/page/0

Edited by MisterMuscaria (10/09/08 06:16 PM)

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054472 -

I nominate me.  Judging by the posts in this thread, the "I'm Not a Retard" party should cruise.  You ...... couldn't even stay on topic.  Nominate people.  Try for one millionth of a second to be thoughtful.  Seuss?  Seuss is an Administrator.  He would be taking a demotion.  And a cut in pay from what I hear.;)
Oh yes, you heard me.  Somebody's got their finger in the till for sure.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054484 -

Quote:
But without government, those things wouldn't have been bought.


Sophistry. You deliberately misdefine "redistribution of wealth". The commonly accepted definition in a politico-economic context is the seizing of money from some to hand to others. Arresting criminals is not  "redistribution of wealth". Repelling invaders is not "redistribution of wealth". Taking my money and handing it - even in the form of food stamps - to a crack ho with four kids is redistribution of wealth.

It is true that in the world we live in, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you need a tank or a jet fighter, you have to pay someone to build it for you. That does not make the purchase of weaponry - or the building of a penitentiary, either - "redistribution of wealth".

In actual fact, the whole phrase "redistribution of wealth" is itself nothing more than a politically-correct phrase for welfarism.





Phred


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