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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations)
    #9046104 - 10/08/08 01:31 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, someone recommended we have an election amongst our fellow shroomerites to see who would make the best president of the united states.  I think this is a good idea and would like to begin the process.

This is how i'm thinking it should be set up:

there will be four political "parties".  we need parties because its makes the final voting more exciting to choose from a smaller field of contenders.
The four political parties will be

a)left
b)center
c)right
d)independant

these labels can mean whatever you want them to mean, they are largely arbitrary.

People nominate themselves, and self identify their affiliation (each of those means different things to different people - ron paul running as republican for example - and i think its best for people to choose their own "party" with the pro's and con's each one entails.)

People will be able to nominate themselves for the primaries for the next week, till October 15th.
Once all the candidates are established, a questionnaire will be sent to each one, everyone will have a week to fill out the questionnaire.
then i will make four threads, one for each "party" that will have all of candidates completed questionnaires in them, people will then be allowed to vote in each thread for who they think should represent that party in the actual election.  voting will go on for one week.

at this point we should have 4 candidates, each one will fill out another questionnaire made up of questions from shroomery members, and be given a space to talk about their ideas (in addition to any side campaigning they may want to do)

then there will be one final vote spanning another week.  polls closed, winner announced.

the winner will get a decent prize (The prize will be made up of donations from shroomery members. assuming there is reasonable interest in the elections, i'll make sure the winner gets a prize worth at least 25$ in the event no one else donates).

pm me if interested in donating prizes.







If you would like to run, please announce you intentions below and list your political party
, something along the lines of "i would like to run - left " just so its easy to read in case people start having side discussions.
Is this a good way to run a shroomery election?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (10/08/08 01:29 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Edited by truekimbo2 (10/09/08 05:33 AM)

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9046184 - 10/08/08 02:07 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think that the member population on this forum would be accurately reflected in those parties.

For one thing not one of those parties represents the heavy libertarian left reflected in the political compass sample data. Just drawing borders on concentration we should have a Anarcho party, a liberal party, a center right party (conservative lite?) and a fringe right-wing party (nutjobs?). If you look at the graph and draw diagonal lines through the bottom 2 boxes it pretty much shows the clusters I was basing these estimations on. Not sure on the names for the right-wing parties there.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9046196 - 10/08/08 02:11 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yeah i thought of that too... still, we do need some way to limit the number of people in the final vote, otherwise i think it will lose some excitement.

can you think of 3-4 political parties that have some real world basis, but could be broad enough to get a decent amount of candidates?

edit: actually, i don't know, seems there is a decent balance between the left and the right.  i'm sure a bunch of those people would be willing to describe themselves as moderates or independents too.

as long as we're talking economically, i think the above categories would work, and people get to say for themselves what they are, so they can pick completely backwards if they want.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9046204 - 10/08/08 02:14 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Oh and can we do the election in FPTP voting format and then hold a referendum during that election on a weighted electoral system, like a 1-4 numbering point scoring method, to ensure proper representation in future elections. Just to be ironic.

Though as for the money prize I wouldn't make it too much more than $25 to prevent electoral fraud. I mean anyone who can get a new IP address can vote multiple times.

Truekimbo: What's wrong with the ones I mentioned?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (10/08/08 02:16 AM)

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9046223 - 10/08/08 02:24 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yeah i changed it.  liberal and conservative had too many connotations.

I think thats the best i could do at being distinct without being being too descriptive that people wouldn't feel they belonged.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9046251 - 10/08/08 02:40 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

you mean they sound too authoritarian for shroomery members? You may be right. How about, Liberal Democratic instead of liberal and Moderate Libertarian Conservative (if they're bad at spelling they can run ironically under the acronym MLK). As for the RWNJs.... the elephantiasis party? You know like republicans but with enlarged balls. I'm sure they'd like that. Anyway sounds like the floor is open to suggestions. I really think there should be 4 parties though.

To be honest though I think that grouping the parties based on the popular fringes on this forum is actually the thing that you should to to ensure it is like a real election.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (10/08/08 02:45 AM)

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9046281 - 10/08/08 03:03 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I like the system.  We should just wait for a little more feedback on the parties.  Particularly, I have no idea what the libertarians will think of being called conservative or simply independent.  Also, I have no idea what is considered centrist on the Shroomery.  I guess they could just be general guidelines, a blank slate.

I'm not worried about voter fraud.  A couple free prints or whatever isn't worth pumping the vote.  If it's a real concern, we could have manual vote submission :shrug:

Thanks for kick starting this by the way TK


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Ferris]
    #9046289 - 10/08/08 03:08 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i'm hoping the party people choose adds another element of strategy to the election.

for instance, someone who's main emphasis is on environmental issues (green party) could run as a moderate, not because they actually agree with the normal american moderate positions, but to appear more moderate.

it will also be interesting to see who takes votes away from who.
personally i'm hoping it will turn into socialists from the left, vs liberatarians from the right, with anarchists (independent) and standard american politics (center) being spoilers.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9046299 - 10/08/08 03:19 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

i'm hoping it will turn into socialists from the left, vs liberatarians from the right, with anarchists (independent) and standard american politics (center) being spoilers.




That seems pretty realistic with our demographics


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Ferris]
    #9046359 - 10/08/08 04:18 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

a) left (liberals, democrats, socialists, ect)
b) center (moderates)
c) right (republicans, conservatives, libertarians, ect)
d) independent (fascists, anarchists, ect)





You gotta be joking?  Epic fail for putting libertarians in the same group as republicans and conservatives.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9046362 - 10/08/08 04:22 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

the right is usually described as being the side that favors less central government power... would that label not apply to libertarians?

i know republicans don't live up to it, but they fall on that side of the spectrum also.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9046463 - 10/08/08 05:42 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Pre-defining names for the parties adds some bias - perhaps the parties themselves could choose their names?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9046535 - 10/08/08 06:43 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> the right is usually described as being the side that favors less central government power... would that label not apply to libertarians?

The right also tend to be authoritarians, which does not apply at all to libertarians.  Might as well put anarchists in with the left using your groupings.

Keeping it simple:

social conservative, fiscal conservative
social liberal, fiscal conservative
social conservative, fiscal liberal
social liberal, fiscal liberal

Call them what you like.


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Invisiblethedefone
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9046931 - 10/08/08 10:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Keeping it simple:

social conservative, fiscal conservative
social liberal, fiscal conservative
social conservative, fiscal liberal
social liberal, fiscal liberal





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I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: thedefone]
    #9048195 - 10/08/08 02:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

hmmm, any other complaints other than the names of the parties?

changed by the way.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9048237 - 10/08/08 02:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Wow... you changed it?  I'm impressed (and offer a big thank you!)

I think half the problems we have are people succumbing to the label of "republican" or "democrat" without thinking twice about the BS both parties dish out.  There is probably a better breakout than what I offered as well.  I left authoritarian/liberal out, but was trying to keep it simple.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Pretty dumb [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9048259 - 10/08/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

This thread/poll is without merit.


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Edited by Minstrel (10/08/08 03:03 PM)

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048260 - 10/08/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think they look worse now.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048276 - 10/08/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

lol, people seem to be having alot of issues with the party names, and someone seconded your suggestion so i figured why not.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9048292 - 10/08/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> I think they look worse now.

I do to... can't even make myself happy.  :grin:

As for the vote, I'm all for social liberal and fiscal conservative.  Do what you want, protect my right to do what I want as long as it doesn't infringe on your right to do what you want, and don't ask us to pay for each others mistakes.  Beyond that, regulate just enough to keep the playing field fair and transparent and let freedom reign.  Oh, and when somebody tries to take advantage of the system, pound them hard... none of this two minute minor BS; I'm talking game misconduct for the greedy.


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Offlinenonwo
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048305 - 10/08/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

the real republicans are the same as libratarians look at ron paul


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yellow red black and white cometogether as humans and fallow the path the creater intended

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048306 - 10/08/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I think they look worse now.

I do to... can't even make myself happy.  :grin:

As for the vote, I'm all for social liberal and fiscal conservative.  Do what you want, protect my right to do what I want as long as it doesn't infringe on your right to do what you want, and don't ask us to pay for each others mistakes.  Beyond that, regulate just enough to keep the playing field fair and transparent and let freedom reign.  Oh, and when somebody tries to take advantage of the system, pound them hard... none of this two minute minor BS; I'm talking game misconduct for the greedy.




That describes me so I'll start by nominating my support for Seuss for the Social Liberal-Fiscal Conservative party.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048314 - 10/08/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

a)left
b)center
c)right
d)independant

these labels can mean whatever you want them to mean, they are largely arbitrary.




-fixed?

lol the political process sucks.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048401 - 10/08/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

lets use those as initial groupings and have the parties rename themselves.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048539 - 10/08/08 04:00 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

interesting idea... will have to think about it some more.


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"The soul has greater need of the ideal than of the real. It is by the real that we exist, it is by the ideal that we live."

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #9048544 - 10/08/08 04:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> I'll start by nominating my support for Seuss

Ack!  I'd be a horrid choice.  I can't even get to vs too correct (see your quote of my reply).  I think the Jiggy-Redstorm ticket has a nice ring to it.  :smile:


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Offlinenonwo
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048572 - 10/08/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i nom. myself for the antinwo party


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048590 - 10/08/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I don't have the time to campaign. Besides, I can be a loose cannon.  :lol:

If Red is a social liberal-fiscal conservative, let him be our parties nominee.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: nonwo]
    #9048599 - 10/08/08 04:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nonwo said:
i nom. myself for the antinwo party




awesome, mind if i pencil you in under independent?

i was very much hoping someone would run on that platform

"absolutely no secret pagan magic in my administration."


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9048651 - 10/08/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal, although I can think of half a dozen people that I'd vote for over myself in that category.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9048661 - 10/08/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> "absolutely no secret pagan magic in my administration."

What about voodoo?  Donno if I can support a party that doesn't allow voodoo.

> If Red is a social liberal-fiscal conservative, let him be our parties nominee.

Him and John both fit that description fairly well.  However, I like the name Jiggy Redstorm Ticket.  That has win written all over it!


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Ferris]
    #9048699 - 10/08/08 04:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

>I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal, although I can think of half a dozen people that I'd vote for over myself in that category.

:thumbup:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9048764 - 10/08/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

ya ill run inde. alot of ppl here think I'm nuts so ita follow American tradition


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9048768 - 10/08/08 04:33 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal

I wish somebody would explain to me why this is a good combination?  Why do you feel that you are entitled to somebodies money/property/prosperity for no other reason than you feel like you deserve it?


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048786 - 10/08/08 04:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i'm sure he will explain it to you, probably in a week or so when the nominations are in, and he's trying to get you to vote for him.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048819 - 10/08/08 04:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

>I wish somebody would explain to me why this is a good combination?  Why do you feel that you are entitled to somebodies money/property/prosperity for no other reason than you feel like you deserve it?

That's not the reason.

I'm sure we'll all get to hear the justifications for everyone's position during the election :wink:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9048886 - 10/08/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'll form an exploratory committee to see if I should run!

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9048975 - 10/08/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal

I wish somebody would explain to me why this is a good combination?  Why do you feel that you are entitled to somebodies money/property/prosperity for no other reason than you feel like you deserve it?




I hear that Suess eats babies :wink:


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Ferris]
    #9049012 - 10/08/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Seuss doesn't support the troops.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Ferris]
    #9049016 - 10/08/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

vote nonwo "yes we can" "hope" "useless slogan" "remeber 9/11"
if u dont vote for me ur rasist and want osama bin laden to win


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9049085 - 10/08/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal

I wish somebody would explain to me why this is a good combination?  Why do you feel that you are entitled to somebodies money/property/prosperity for no other reason than you feel like you deserve it?




Perhaps you should be moderator for the first debate.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9049717 - 10/08/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal

I wish somebody would explain to me why this is a good combination?  Why do you feel that you are entitled to somebodies money/property/prosperity for no other reason than you feel like you deserve it?




Seuss, America (the continents) is based on the appropriation of resources from their rightful holders to enrich another segment of society. Nobody in this hemisphere who is wealthy hasn't in some way received their wealth from ill gotten gains. Though I think the question of what is right or wrong of libertarian fiscal policy is too vague to debate it in generality, there rings a hypocrisy in language that condemns it as theft from the wealthy.

I nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal. I've had to shut down my op and I am so board I have to do something.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Edited by ScavengerType (10/08/08 07:14 PM)

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9049902 - 10/08/08 07:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

left-lib? got my vote.

technically, i'm for the green party, so you're an ally.


btw...your property(land) isn't really yours anyway. law of "eminent domain"


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: piracetam]
    #9049942 - 10/08/08 07:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I subscribe closer to the natural law of adverse possession.

It's the reason I don't understand people who pay millions of dollars for uninhabited islands in the south Pacific.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Ferris]
    #9050256 - 10/08/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

not to mention with global warming and rising sea levels they'll have nothing to pass on to their kids. zing.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9050838 - 10/08/08 09:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal

I wish somebody would explain to me why this is a good combination?  Why do you feel that you are entitled to somebodies money/property/prosperity for no other reason than you feel like you deserve it?




Seuss, America (the continents) is based on the appropriation of resources from their rightful holders to enrich another segment of society. Nobody in this hemisphere who is wealthy hasn't in some way received their wealth from ill gotten gains. Though I think the question of what is right or wrong of libertarian fiscal policy is too vague to debate it in generality, there rings a hypocrisy in language that condemns it as theft from the wealthy.

I nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal. I've had to shut down my op and I am so board I have to do something.




What does this have to do with anything whatsoever?


Arguendo, if that statement is true it has nothing to do with his question.  He didn't ask what happens or happened he asked what right you had to such demands.  This reminds me of someone arguing phred about libertarian economics.  He said something like "well libertarian capitalism sucks, look at how the united states gives all these corporate welfare grants and tax cuts to those companies that are politically important.  How can you defend that?".  Dum da Dum dum


What is hypocritical about me being a libertarian, specifically?  Libertarians aren't concerned with the wealthy, they're concerned with rights.  It matters not if you have not a dollar to your name or if you are wealthy.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: johnm214]
    #9051857 - 10/09/08 01:19 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

first off, the answer I gave was a moral justification for the right to redistribute wealth by comparing it to how it was accumulated. As I said, "there rings a hypocrisy in language that condemns it as theft from the wealthy." Thus telling him what right "I think I have," as if charity from the government to help the poor was somehow morally outrageous. It seems to me I did answer the question.

As for your drudging up of old arguments, as I said back then I don't support corporate welfare, nor do I support the US government under either parties. That thread was about how Libertarianism as it is voiced on economic policies (actually more similar to neo-conservatism) would benefit the wealthy while affording no measures to ensure protection of the poor or socioty in general. As I recall I never said it was a contradiction for you to be a libertarian, rather that you weren't a libertarian purist. Though I believe the language fivepointer was using was "real libertarian" so I can see how the language may have seemed loaded.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9051886 - 10/09/08 01:42 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
first off, the answer I gave was a moral justification for the right to redistribute wealth by comparing it to how it was accumulated. As I said, "there rings a hypocrisy in language that condemns it as theft from the wealthy." Thus telling him what right "I think I have," as if charity from the government to help the poor was somehow morally outrageous. It seems to me I did answer the question.





Yeah, I understand that's what you posit, I don't understand how the argument is valid.

Nobody is defending or advocating what happened to the natives.  If you want to talk about reperations or whatnot, feel free, but I don't see the relevance.

I'm talking about what our philosophy should be now, as I thought this thread was addressing.


Why would I owe some other cracker some cash?  You seem to argue it was wrong that the natives were 'whatevered'.  So how does it follow that it is right to redistribute wealth now?  To other white folks?


Moreover, what guilt or debt do I owe native americans?  None, absolutely none whatsoever, and you don't seem to be able to identify any debt either.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: johnm214]
    #9051904 - 10/09/08 01:53 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

>So how does it follow that it is right to redistribute wealth now?

But wealth is already redistributed through taxes. Unless you're arguing for the abolition of taxes, this debate is really about the finer details of this redistribution, and should be treated as such.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9051925 - 10/09/08 02:03 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But wealth is already redistributed through taxes.




That doesn't mean it is right to do so.






Phred


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Phred]
    #9051932 - 10/09/08 02:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So are you arguing for the abolition of taxes?


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9052012 - 10/09/08 03:01 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Abolition of taxes means pretty much total abolition of government including the judicial branch.

I would somehow feel more like arguing you if you actually supported your own stated point.

I wasn't putting native rights or grievances up to issue I was saying that most of the wealth accumulated was appropriated in a immoral manner. There is a hypocrisy in protecting these ill gotten gains and condemning welfare as theft. There is nothing morally outrageous about helping the poor and just because you know some white trash hillbilly retard on welfare doesn't mean that it's representative of the entire demographic. Nor does it mean that, this individuals limited intelligence and wanton disregard for the fact that he's become a full fledged stereotype, grants you a right to label him unworthy of simple charity and/or work assistance. And be honest unless your flippen loaded your not payin taxes equivalent to your fair share of public services you receive in return. So don't fret it's not like your paying for "some cracker".


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (10/09/08 03:02 AM)

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9052070 - 10/09/08 03:58 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I presume that was meant to be directed at johnm214?


--------------------
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9052104 - 10/09/08 04:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> So are you arguing for the abolition of taxes?

No, he is arguing (I assume) for the abolition of redistribution of wealth though taxes.  In other words, end welfare type programs at the federal level.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052110 - 10/09/08 04:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

then what gives the government the right to tax but not to tax in order to redistribute the wealth to a minority in need?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9052114 - 10/09/08 04:38 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Abolition of taxes means pretty much total abolition of government including the judicial branch.

I would somehow feel more like arguing you if you actually supported your own stated point.

I wasn't putting native rights or grievances up to issue I was saying that most of the wealth accumulated was appropriated in a immoral manner. There is a hypocrisy in protecting these ill gotten gains and condemning welfare as theft. There is nothing morally outrageous about helping the poor and just because you know some white trash hillbilly retard on welfare doesn't mean that it's representative of the entire demographic. Nor does it mean that, this individuals limited intelligence and wanton disregard for the fact that he's become a full fledged stereotype, grants you a right to label him unworthy of simple charity and/or work assistance. And be honest unless your flippen loaded your not payin taxes equivalent to your fair share of public services you receive in return. So don't fret it's not like your paying for "some cracker".





What the hell are you talking about?  You seem to presuppose my reasons for disliking welfare and then refute the nonissues.


And I know noone on welfare and hardly have any presuppositions of who is representative of that class.  Why would you think i'd presume some hillbilly, my kin, to have less of a right to welfare than a college professor out of work?

That's part of the problem, when you grant people a right to money they have no moral right to you get to control who gets the benifit of the public apparatus.  And since nobody has that right, yet everyone has the right to equal protection, you get stupid value judgments made which should not be the province of govenrment.  Who am I to say some hillbilly shouldn't get wellfare provided to others?  Who is the government?


I don't endeavor to have the state enforce my value system via taxation or grant.


And you repeat yourself like a record.  I've asked you to demonstrate the hypocrisy in me disliking welfare or wahtever.  You keep repeating native americans but have yet to link them with anything relevant to my supposed hypocrisy.

I really have no idea whether I pay taxes equivalent to the public services I receive, but doubt it.  So what?




And zouden, yes, taxation is neccesarily wealth redistribution.  I believe the historicaly public schools in the US are fine, as are roads and police.  The distinction between these and other things proposed is that all may make use of the roads equally, and the police, and the schools.  Within a given jurisdiction: Their are no roads for rich or poor.  Their are no schools for rich or poor.  Their are no police for rich or poor. (ideally, though I'm no fan of the police.  I'm far more afraid of the police than i am of other criminals, and I don't do anything illegal generally)


And while this is towards the socialized end of things, I'm fine with them existing.  The problem comes when we give govenrment money we give them the ability to discriminate.  Giving government the power to distribute money is giving them the power to control you.


They pass national healthcare then tell you you can't smoke, afterall they pay for your care.  They give you a license to do buisness, then tell you how you may conduct yourself or what buisness you may do.


The distinction between roads and welfare, beyond the benifits of roads being available to all, is largely an arbitrary notion of what government should do.  But that's good enough for me.  I'd much rather err on the side of more freedom.



And for the record, in the US, I'm not entirely against all social programs.  I'm categorically against the federal government providing these, though.  It is dangerous to our freedom to have the government taking your money and redistributing it how they see fit rather than how your community sees fit.  No guarantee you get it all back, no guarentee you have a use for the form in which you do get it back, no guarentee they won't hold it hostage unless you assent to their bullshit demands.


I like the free market, and I think that can work with govenrment services in the US- if we'd follow the constittuion.  Let one state have socialized healthcare and another not.  Where care is cheaper, buisnesses and workers will follow, enriching the efficient state and penalizing the inefficient state.


Which one is better in the end I really don't care so long as people have a choice, and the law is followed.  I'd prefer a free market, but at least our multiplicity of states and federalist, supposedly, system allows for some competition- in theory.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: johnm214]
    #9052139 - 10/09/08 05:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

They pass national healthcare then tell you you can't smoke, afterall they pay for your care.




Well, that hasn't actually happened yet, though some people have called on the government to increase the medicare levy (healthcare tax) for smokers. So far no prime minister has done that, presumably because smokers are voters too. I think you'd be surprised how well the system works in many cases.

Quote:

The distinction between roads and welfare, beyond the benifits of roads being available to all, is largely an arbitrary notion of what government should do.  But that's good enough for me.  I'd much rather err on the side of more freedom.




Excellent, then we are in agreement that it's a matter of opinion across a sliding-scale, rather than an absolute distinction. Government is always going to redistribute wealth, it's just a matter of how much, and to whom. Everyone will have a different idea of when it becomes "too much socialism".


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9052142 - 10/09/08 05:07 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> then what gives the government the right to tax but not to tax in order to redistribute the wealth to a minority in need?

A government cannot run without taxation.  In the case of America, the Constitution originally required congress to apportion taxes among the states according to each state's population (See Article I, Section 8, Clause 1).  However, the 16th amendment changed all that, allowing congress to dole out our tax money as they see fit.

Turning your question around... why should the government have the right to redistribute wealth to a minority in need?  (And why a minority?  Why not the poor in general?  Why must we bring race into the issue?)  Is it not the job of the government to protect the right for people to succeed, regardless of their race, rather than giving handouts to the lazy and punishing those that do succeed for their success?

Edit:

Again, I am talking about the federal government.  What the individual states do, with respect to welfare, etc, is their own business.  However, I see no reason why the people of New York (or any other state) should be paying breeders in some other random state to sit at home and watch Oprah while waiting for their next kid to pop out.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052149 - 10/09/08 05:16 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

You presume they are lazy and not just down-on-their luck. Welfare is meant to be a safety net, to stop people falling through the cracks into poverty and turning to crime or prostitution.
In Australia, to receive welfare you have to be either studying full-time or looking for work. This means approaching 14 potential employers every fortnight, and the welfare agency checks that you actually did it. After 3 months of unemployment, to continue receiving welfare you have to join a community work program, but you still have to look for work.
The lazy don't do that - they just get an easy job and make twice as much money then spend it on beer and weed.

Edit:
Quote:

Again, I am talking about the federal government.  What the individual states do, with respect to welfare, etc, is their own business.  However, I see no reason why the people of New York (or any other state) should be paying breeders in some other random state to sit at home and watch Oprah while waiting for their next kid to pop out.



Isn't that a bit arbitrary? Why should the people of New York City be paying breeders in Buffalo?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (10/09/08 05:20 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9052153 - 10/09/08 05:19 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

The distinction between roads and welfare, beyond the benifits of roads being available to all, is largely an arbitrary notion of what government should do.  But that's good enough for me.  I'd much rather err on the side of more freedom.




Excellent, then we are in agreement that it's a matter of opinion across a sliding-scale, rather than an absolute distinction. Government is always going to redistribute wealth, it's just a matter of how much, and to whom. Everyone will have a different idea of when it becomes "too much socialism".




I wouldn't call it a "matter of opinion across a sliding-scale".  Interstate roads help everybody, from the rich to the poor.  You want food?  Unless you are growing it yourself, it has to be transported, either by road or rail.  Besides, road maintenance costs can be offset by fuel taxes.  Handouts for lazy people that don't feel like working does not benefit everybody.  I get nothing in return when my tax money goes to pay for food and housing for somebody that can't be bothered to work.

I'm not against things like unemployment benefits; things that help people through tough times.  However, in the example of unemployment benefits, the employers pay unemployment tax, and the proceeds from this tax are returned to the employee should they need it when out of work, as long as they are trying to find work.  It is not a free handout, and it does not last forever.

> Welfare is meant to be a safety net, to stop people falling through the cracks into poverty and turning to crime or prostitution.

Then why does it last forever?  Why do benefits go up for having more kids?  Welfare is a way to keep the poor dependent upon the system, trapping them in a demoralizing existence of poverty.

Edit:

> Why should the people of New York City be paying breeders in Buffalo?

Because they live in the same state, and if they don't like it, they can move to another state.  It is much harder to move to another country to avoid the policies that the federal government dictates.  We can get ridiculous and break it down to the city, or community, or side of the road, but it doesn't really make sense.

Please, don't play stupid.  I know that you are not.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052158 - 10/09/08 05:22 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

seuss did you get my PM?


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9052167 - 10/09/08 05:28 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> seuss did you get my PM?

Yes, and am still considering... though I hate to move such a good discussion somewhere that will kill it.  I know we have gone off topic from what you intended, but there is a good debate going on and it is this type of discussion that helps us learn from each other.  :smile:


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052169 - 10/09/08 05:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Interstate roads help everybody, from the rich to the poor.  You want food?  Unless you are growing it yourself, it has to be transported, either by road or rail.



Agreed, and the same argument can be applied to schools or healthcare - you want food? Unless you are growing it yourself, it has to be grown and transported by people, and if they are sick they can't work. A healthy population is more productive, therefore it makes economic sense to make healthcare affordable to them.
And the arguments against public healthcare - that it does not make economic sense, or that it's an unfair distribution of wealth - can be used against public roads too. I've heard people argue that all roads should be privatised, run by corporations and funded with tolls.

I'm trying not to get into an argument about the specifics of welfare, healthcare or public roads (not in this thread anyway) - I'm just trying to get my point across that it's all a matter of opinion. You believe it's okay to fund roads and schools but not healthcare. I think all those should be funded, but I don't, for example, think that airlines should be nationalised (but the airports should).


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: johnm214]
    #9052188 - 10/09/08 05:43 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think it was this remark "Why would I owe some other cracker some cash?" Pared with comments made in the other thread either by you or fivepointer that led me to infer that you were making that judgment on who should receive public funds. If this is not what you meant then forget I brought it up.

Quote:

Who am I to say some hillbilly shouldn't get wellfare provided to others?  Who is the government?




So because the government could allocate welfare unfairly some of the time they should never be able to do it ever?

Quote:

I don't endeavor to have the state enforce my value system via taxation or grant.




But you say you are in favor of public schools, roads, and police. Not all people (nor all libertarians) share this view, this is a value judgment on your part. If you are allowed to make a value judgment to say what in society is worth protecting and I am not then you are being a hypocrite.

Quote:

Their are no roads for rich or poor.  Their are no schools for rich or poor.  Their are no police for rich or poor.




If those who couldn't sustain themselves were not assisted do you think the only people this could impact is those individuals. Surely a few of these people could become a public nuisance. Many would become homeless/squatters, robbers/thieves, beggars or dead. There are other benefactors to welfare than just the recipients.

Quote:

Giving government the power to distribute money is giving them the power to control you.




Not much more than an employer controls an employee, or a buyer controls a seller.

Quote:

They pass national healthcare then tell you you can't smoke, afterall they pay for your care.




I've not known this to happen anywhere, however in countries where public health care is available cigarette taxes tend to be higher.


Quote:

And for the record, in the US, I'm not entirely against all social programs.  I'm categorically against the federal government providing these, though.  It is dangerous to our freedom to have the government taking your money and redistributing it how they see fit rather than how your community sees fit.  No guarantee you get it all back, no guarentee you have a use for the form in which you do get it back, no guarentee they won't hold it hostage unless you assent to their bullshit demands.





so your in favor of welfare, but not centralized welfare? This makes sense minimum wage standards and some labor laws are different from state to state as with province to province. However that wasn't a theme of the question at all.
Seuss condemned all welfare when he said:
Quote:

> I'll nominate myself for social/fiscal liberal

I wish somebody would explain to me why this is a good combination?  Why do you feel that you are entitled to somebodies money/property/prosperity for no other reason than you feel like you deserve it?



Frankly nobody with much money/property/prosperity worked for it all. Are they not helping themselves to someone's hard earned money/property/prosperity every time they make a markup on something produced by someone else be them a store, manufacturer or otherwise.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9052203 - 10/09/08 05:51 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> Agreed, and the same argument can be applied to schools or healthcare

I feel that the federal government should set the minimum standards for accreditation and provide standardized testing to ensure these standards are met, but leave the funding and operation of schools to the individual states.  Beyond that, the federal government should keep their fingers out of the school pie.  I also don't have a problem with the federal government giving tax breaks or other incentives to companies that help fund education.

My big issue with healthcare is that the system is broken.  By providing universal healthcare, the government is writing a blank check, signed by the taxpayer, to the healthcare industry.  If the problems with the healthcare industry were fixed, then universal healthcare would not be needed, as healthcare would be affordable.  Again, I would leave it up to the states to decide if/how they wanted to implement a healthcare program in their state.

The other big problem with universal healthcare is the government is eventually going to decide to micromanage how I live my life in the name of healthcare; and rightly so, if they are footing the bill.  Why should my tax money go to pay for Zed's heart transplant when Zed weighs 800lbs and eats nothing but Big Macs every day while collecting his welfare check and watching Oprah?  I would much rather the government stay out of my life, and Zed's life for that matter.

> A healthy population is more productive

Assuming that the healthy population is working rather than sitting around waiting for their check from the man.  Again, I am not against universal healthcare, but I think it should be universal at the state level rather than the federal level.  Let the federal government regulate (within reason) the heath industry to keep healthcare affordable.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052224 - 10/09/08 06:04 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Why should my tax money go to pay for Zed's heart transplant when Zed weighs 800lbs and eats nothing but Big Macs every day while collecting his welfare check and watching Oprah?



"You get a free heart transplant and you get a free heart transplant and and you get a free heart transplant and you get a free heart transplant and every 800lbs person living off big Macks at home gets a free heart transplant!!!!"

Seriously though usually people who will benefit the least because of medical concerns, like say being an opera viewer or maybe being morbidly obese, end up not making transplant lists and dying. This even happens in non-socialized medicine, this shows your clearly not a "house" fan. I mean if you watched the show it comes up quite a lot.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052239 - 10/09/08 06:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:


My big issue with healthcare is that the system is broken.  By providing universal healthcare, the government is writing a blank check, signed by the taxpayer, to the healthcare industry.  If the problems with the healthcare industry were fixed, then universal healthcare would not be needed, as healthcare would be affordable.  Again, I would leave it up to the states to decide if/how they wanted to implement a healthcare program in their state.

The other big problem with universal healthcare is the government is eventually going to decide to micromanage how I live my life in the name of healthcare; and rightly so, if they are footing the bill.  Why should my tax money go to pay for Zed's heart transplant when Zed weighs 800lbs and eats nothing but Big Macs every day while collecting his welfare check and watching Oprah?  I would much rather the government stay out of my life, and Zed's life for that matter.





Exactly.


This system should not be perpetuated with federal dollars of a greater magnitude.  The feds now control licensure, the ability to prescribe, the ability to effectivly work or get paid, and the ability to practice how you want.

I can't see who I want, I have to see a government approved doctor.  That means I have to wait till the feds decide another medical school is wise.  That means I have to wait till the physicians' lobby, which is without pail in its hypocrasy- bemoaning socialist healthcare and then encouraging restrictions of the free market through prevention of midlevel licensure, accents to allowing one to open.


There's been something like one new alopathic medical school in the last twenty years, maybe none, and that is coulpled with this rise in medical needs?  Bullshit. This is not a free market.  In a free market I could see a nurse practitioner for my rash.  I could decide to buy my own ointment.  I wouldn't need a nanny state telling me whether I can or cannot have a drug which is neither psychotropic nor particularly dangerous.

People have been sheltered from the train wreck that is healthcare in this country through the  special deals their insurance companies and medicare gets, while passing on a big fuck you to the self pays.  A colonoscopy billed for 3500 suddenly becomes 800?  Bullshit.

Name one other industry where the price the insurance company pays is three times less, at least, than the price the uninsured pays?  Doesn't exist.


Healthcare is a system of illegal trusts where you have to pay for an insurer not for insurance, but to have the privledge of receiving a fair bill- which while paid by the insurer, yes, is really paid for by you.  The insruance is not insruance, it is a club where you don't get fucked by outrageous bills.




2 things would happen:

1.  They would dramatically cut the quality of care that is now standard:

2.  They would spend shitloads of money.


Neither is acceptable.


Govenrment does not know what a fair price is or what acceptable service is.  THe market does.  All I want is to have a pool of doctors not artificially limited via accredation or scope or manner of practice, in competition with whoever wishes to honestly promote their competing services (nurses, PA's, psychologists, et cet) and with the socialist systems that allowed the system to get out of control, partly, gone.


You can't even practice, hardly, if you don't have medicare accredation.  Suddenly the feds tell the states their licensure isn't good enough.  Full faith and credit?  Don't need it...




And Seuss is right.  When they start paying for your welfare they start telling you to apply or so many jobs.  WHen they pfay for your healthcare they start drug testing, charging more for politically correct factors like smoking or obesity, and start telling you what you have to do to get your tax money back.


The govenrment will take your money and tell you what to do to recieve any apportioned benifit therefrom.  Just like they do with the highway funds, school dollars, and grants, they will do with every other program.  Untill the states are but formalities.


There is nothing stopping a state from instituting healthcare programs- nothing.  Nothing except ridiculous taxing by a too-large federal govenrment such that the people can hardly afford to pay the state's their due.

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: johnm214]
    #9052274 - 10/09/08 06:24 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i don't know if this is relevant, but my brother and i decided to sign up for foodstamps yesterday. we both make about 8k per year, so we're eligible even if we're employed.

fuck yeah, maybe now i can finally afford fresh blueberries, currant juice and cheese.

i don't think i have to do anything like try and find more work or whatever, i think they just give it to me.

time for some sweet government cheese.

we're both kind of startled, because we're pretty comfortable living off this much or less.  foodstamps would give us about 400$ extra per month of spending money... which is like doubling our non rent income.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9052299 - 10/09/08 06:43 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> we're both kind of startled, because we're pretty comfortable living off this much or less.

Even better... if you stop working altogether, you will qualify for welfare, and will get more from the government from not working than you are currently making.  Squeeze out a few kids and you get even more!


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9052349 - 10/09/08 07:08 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

nah i think welfare sucks these days.  For some reason i'm having alot of trouble finding info now, but i think where i live in NY you're only eligible for 3 months, then if necessary you can get another 3 months extension.  during this time you have to prove you're looking for a job, and i think they even look for jobs for you.  If i recall the amount of money you get is very low too.

i don't know, that may be total bullshit, but i remember looking it up a couple years ago and thinking it sucked.

public housing might be good, haven't looked into that yet.

foodstamps is banging, and apparently we actually have two foodstamps programs, the normal one and then one called WIC - women, infants, and children.

edit: So it seems welfare is a multitude of different services.  the only one i could find for people without families is Unemployment benefits (lol, great name).

i would have to find a job, and i would get payed about half what i am currently making. roughly 325$ a month


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Edited by truekimbo2 (10/09/08 07:28 AM)

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9052503 - 10/09/08 08:32 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

if i was president id destroy dc from the inside


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9052971 - 10/09/08 10:56 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

zouden writes:

Quote:

So are you arguing for the abolition of taxes?




I favor the abolition of taxes, but that isn't the point.

It's not that taxes are collected, it's what they are spent on. If the taxes are spent on the proper functions of government (courts, cops, military) it's one thing. If the taxes are spent on social engineering programs or merely handed out to other people, it's quite another thing.

Seizing by force money from one constituent and handing it off to another constituent is an illegitimate act, no matter how you attempt to redefine the act by calling the booty "taxes" and calling the theft "redistribution programs".



Phred


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Phred]
    #9054297 - 10/09/08 03:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

But isn't military funding just redistributing wealth from taxpayers to soldiers and shareholders of defence corporations? You see the military as a necessary function of government while healthcare isn't, but other people see the opposite. Again, you can't use absolutism to defend your position.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054382 - 10/09/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But isn't military funding just redistributing wealth from taxpayers to soldiers and shareholders of defence corporations?




No.

That line of thinking is sophistry. It isn't taking from someone and giving to someone else (redistribution of wealth), it is taking from someone and buying stuff. Not the same thing at all. Not even close.

Quote:

You see the military as a necessary function of government while healthcare isn't, but other people see the opposite.




Those other people are wrong.

Quote:

Again, you can't use absolutism to defend your position.




Then neither can you.

No serious debater will try to argue it is not the primary function of government to protect its constituents from human predators. If that's your position there's no point you and I continuing to engage.




Phred


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Phred]
    #9054390 - 10/09/08 03:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I ran for mayor of Seattle, so I feel qualified to run for The President of the United States. Vote for me. I'd like to run as an independent since labeling your beliefs to one side or another will inhibit you from doing the right thing when you could just as easily toe the party line.

Also if I win, donate the money to charity or to a political organization like NORML. I don't want it.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Phred]
    #9054414 - 10/09/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It isn't taking from someone and giving to someone else (redistribution of wealth), it is taking from someone and buying stuff.



But without government, those things wouldn't have been bought. Thus, it's a government-controlled redistribution of wealth that would not normally occur in a completely free market.

Quote:

Those other people are wrong.



You're not very good at this are you?

Quote:

No serious debater will try to argue it is not the primary function of government to protect its constituents from human predators. If that's your position there's no point you and I continuing to engage.



That's not my position.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054434 - 10/09/08 04:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

It should be mentioned that our economy becomes dependent on this redistribution of wealth through the military.  It creates an artificial middle class and an artificial industrial sector (by artificial I mean man-made).  Just reminding those unfamiliar with the basics of the military-industrial complex


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: StrandedVoyager]
    #9054470 - 10/09/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)


Edited by MisterMuscaria (10/09/08 04:16 PM)

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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054472 - 10/09/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I nominate me.  Judging by the posts in this thread, the "I'm Not a Retard" party should cruise.  You ...... couldn't even stay on topic.  Nominate people.  Try for one millionth of a second to be thoughtful.  Seuss?  Seuss is an Administrator.  He would be taking a demotion.  And a cut in pay from what I hear.;)
Oh yes, you heard me.  Somebody's got their finger in the till for sure.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054484 - 10/09/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But without government, those things wouldn't have been bought.




Sophistry. You deliberately misdefine "redistribution of wealth". The commonly accepted definition in a politico-economic context is the seizing of money from some to hand to others. Arresting criminals is not  "redistribution of wealth". Repelling invaders is not "redistribution of wealth". Taking my money and handing it - even in the form of food stamps - to a crack ho with four kids is redistribution of wealth.

It is true that in the world we live in, there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you need a tank or a jet fighter, you have to pay someone to build it for you. That does not make the purchase of weaponry - or the building of a penitentiary, either - "redistribution of wealth".

In actual fact, the whole phrase "redistribution of wealth" is itself nothing more than a politically-correct phrase for welfarism.





Phred


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zouden]
    #9054501 - 10/09/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Do you guys really believe that military spending is "redistribution of wealth" of the same nature as welfare handouts, or are you playing stupid, or am I missing something?

>> No serious debater will try to argue it is not the primary function of government to protect its constituents from human predators.

> That's not my position.

Then what is your position, because I am hearing the same thing... that you are claiming that somehow welfare handouts that profit an individual are no different than military spending which protect a nation.


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9054517 - 10/09/08 04:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

When the military can't ramp down its spending after the cold war ends, then it has become de facto redistribution.  It doesn't follow the strict definition, no, but it can be viewed as such


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9054521 - 10/09/08 04:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What's YOUR position, Mister Finger in the Till,  which finger, I might add, smells suspiciously like altar boy taint.  Hmmmmmm?


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9054575 - 10/09/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Do you guys really believe that military spending is "redistribution of wealth" of the same nature as welfare handouts, or are you playing stupid, or am I missing something?

>> No serious debater will try to argue it is not the primary function of government to protect its constituents from human predators.

> That's not my position.

Then what is your position, because I am hearing the same thing... that you are claiming that somehow welfare handouts that profit an individual are no different than military spending which protect a nation.




No, I'm not saying there's no difference - just that the difference is not as big as you might think. On the extreme right end of the economic scale there would be no state-run military because it's an interference with the free market. As you move to the left, the government interferes more to redistribute wealth - firstly to the military, then public works, schools, research, welfare, healthcare, and, finally, further left than any country, there's complete cradle-to-grave support.
All I'm trying to say is that no one position on that line is correct. It's all a matter of opinion. You can argue your case for whatever position on that line you support, but don't say that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, or that they are advocating "redistribution of wealth" while you aren't. From an economic perspective, it's all redistribution. It just a question of how much.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9054592 - 10/09/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> What's YOUR position

My position is in support of a very strong military that is highly trained and has the best technology that science fiction can think up.  However, I do not believe in using this military for anything except defense and in response to a direct attack, such as what was seen on 9/11.  I am annoyed by waste in the military; no bid contracts, private mercenary groups, etc.  I am also against the draft and believe in an all voluntary military.  I also support a strong national guard, at the state level, and believe the federal government should help fund/train/coordinate with state militias.  I do not believe that the federal government should be sucking up the state militia resources to perpetuate engagements across the globe.

I do not support welfare or universal health care or any other handout at the federal level.  I do support states rights to decide what they want to do in these cases, including lowering federal taxes so that states can raise state taxes to pay for these programs, should they wish.

Edit: I am also anti-UN and see it as a worthless, corrupt organization that does very little good compared to the great harm created.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9054644 - 10/09/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think the UN isn't entirely worthless.  Just having the forum is nice, although that is far cheaper than the other costs, monetary and otherwise.

I agree with Ron Paul and some republicans that the UN is largely and infringment on our soveirgnty, in theory.

It's impotent.


I think a good case could be made that BUsh is a war criminal... See anyone care?  Nope


The UN seems more a tool to justify action or inaction when an insande degree of consensus is reached amongst parties that almost always disagree.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: johnm214]
    #9054664 - 10/09/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

> It's impotent.

And unjust... five countries with veto power puts their own interests above the collective interests of the world.  Iran, North Korea, Israel, Syria, etc, etc, etc, who cares what they are really doing, as long as they can be used as pawns by the big five to better their position amongst each other.  It is a complete joke.

There are a few times that the UN has managed to do good, but the bad that has come out of the UN makes it hard to justify.  Impotent and corrupt.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: Seuss]
    #9056208 - 10/09/08 09:52 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The UN is useful as a tool if it's members work together and to do this it requires maturity, objectivity and compromising attitudes. None of these qualities are terribly prevalent in world leaders nowadays. However I'd like to ask what it is the UN does that bothers you so much Seus? It's likely a much better arrangement than international lawlessness.

Anyway you guys are not making any compelling argument that National security is somehow different than economic security. With regards to welfare it is usually a last ditch funding to keep someone from homelessness or death. It seems pretty similar in that respect to national security. And just calling us wrong is not an argument at all you may as well be plugging your ears saying "na na na I'm not listening"

If national security apparatus is not welfare of a class of society because a service is being bought that protects the population it is actually the same as public health care.

Frankly if you believe that statewide jurisdiction should occur where federal is present then you are just passing the buck. If it happens on a state by state level it still happens. Frankly on considdering I don't think some programs should be run on a state to state level. Minimum welfare standards should probibly be held up on a federal level, because if they weren't it could cause recipients to move to states that have friendlier laws. This is not the nature of the service because it's supposed to be temporary assistance for some or permanent assistance for those with disabilities.

And obviously there's no pronounced welfare program in new york I've heard you can't hardly walk around the city without a job whacking you in the face and rent/property is so expensive there you might as well leave if you don't have one.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9064297 - 10/11/08 06:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

so can this be moved to the pub, where it might get a second life, now?


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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9070988 - 10/13/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Alright, me as President. I would be a individualist.

First on the Agenda. Land, reThink how it is Thought. We need plenty of space for the Shrooms to Grow, along with all the Food and everything. Well I would make a test, a Test to see if you still should live in the united states. This would consist of simple things, and people who should not be in a land I control, why should you stay here?

Also, ACID! We can call this: "Re-evaluating Cid Mind"    Everyone should take acid! and While they are on the 12 hour Trip, I will be standing on the big stage will million listen, and watch on tv if they can not attend the presence of my speech. While taking to them, I will just let the Acid take over and let what ever comes to mind go out the mouth. With that in mind, everyone will listen. And it would be a lot easier to control and run a country when every one has listened to your 6-12 hour speech on acid.

"when times of trouble" it would be time to Repeat--- RCM <-- with this in mind, you still should no have problems.

And if that does not work, just let everyone east abundance amounts of shrooms.

Then live life day to day.

IF you still can't make it thought. Then say "fuck the us" and leave and let the people that you were currently in control of do what ever they want to while "I" the president, will be in some other country taking some X and Cid at some Rave enjoying my life and fucking some hot girl.

Why not.


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Invisiblepinkfloydms
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: USD]
    #9071005 - 10/13/08 12:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'll run for a dictatorship.

You do what I want you to do, when I want you to do it. If not OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!

Remember vote for me! :grin:


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Muppet Said:

so yeah:
- 'sex' five times
- once with a man
- once with a cadaver
- and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes)
Best story ever!

www.panicstream.com :thumbup:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: pinkfloydms]
    #9072465 - 10/13/08 06:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pinkfloydms said:
I'll run for a dictatorship.

You do what I want you to do, when I want you to do it. If not OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!

Remember vote for me! :grin:




Hey!  That's MY ticket!  Get off my ticket.  Or I'll spank you (I figure that's all it will take, nancy).


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Offlinenonwo
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9072471 - 10/13/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

what will the president run?


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: nonwo]
    #9072483 - 10/13/08 06:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

nothing, its mainly for curiosity's sake.  To see if any shroomery members have interesting ideas about how to run the country.


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Offlinenonwo
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: truekimbo2]
    #9072495 - 10/13/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i think we should all just get along:)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Unofficial vote a shroomery member for president thread! (nominations) [Re: nonwo]
    #9072683 - 10/13/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

You will get along quite well under my benevolent tutelage.  Or I will CUT YOUR HEAD OFF.  See, it's easy to rule when you're willing to destroy anything that makes it even the least bit poopie.


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